Editorial

Windows Phone 7: Why it's failing

With the “Nodo” WP7 update fiasco finally reaching its unceremonious and unhappy conclusion, it’s hard to be optimistic about Microsoft’s stake in the smartphone market. The expectation was that after a few months of intense marketing and time for users to get used to the differences and advantages that WP7 brings to the table, sales would steadily increase to make WP7 the third major player in the mobile world. It shouldn’t necessarily be called “Nodo –gate,” but the PR nightmare that this update has become is not going to bode well for phone sales. This comes after Microsoft market share already dropped 1.7% in three months from October 2010 to January 2011, according to Comscore.

Image Source: Comscore

Watching Microsoft flounder about on the release of the first update to its preeminent mobile software is an uncomfortable experience. WP7 is do-or-die for the company that had been attempting to beat out Android and iOS with a significantly subpar Windows Mobile 6.5 OS. It’s do-or-die, and it’s late. Microsoft entered the market when Google and Apple already had entrenched user bases and established carrier agreements and sales figures. If you’re going to risk your whole mobile strategy on a late to the market OS, it has to be good the first time, and if you need to issue an update, it better be as smooth as butter. First adopters don’t have a lot of patience when there are other, sometimes arguably better options in the iOS and Android world. At least with Android, it’s no secret that your carrier update is going to take a long time. Consumers have taken this with a grain of salt to begin with, and Google doesn’t keep this strategy a secret. Fragmentation issues have plagued them from the beginning, and this is but a symptom. Microsoft, on the other hand, went out of their way to make sure that every handset shipping with WP7 has very specific hardware requirements and configurations. Issuing WP7 OS updates should not take this long, or be this awkwardly implemented.

Microsoft should be taking cues from its highly successful console gaming segment. From a purely comparative standpoint, Microsoft’s Xbox 360 would stand no chance against Sony’s PS3 and Nintendo’s Wii if it was released today. Sony has better hardware, free online services, and a catalog that leans heavily towards the long time and hard core gamer. Wii has the family friendly library, the intuitive and innovative (at the time) controller, and a great marketing department. Xbox 360 had astonishingly high hardware failures, a premium online service, sub-par and non-exclusive launch game catalog, was loud and bulky, you had to pay way too much for a wireless adapter, and in general wouldn’t be able to compete with the competition with its launch issues. However, Microsoft has one thing going for them that Sony and Nintendo do not. They came out early, they came out strong, and they continuously improve their services with regular and smooth updates. While it wasn’t a perfect console by any means, Microsoft was ready when Sony and Nintendo came a-knocking. It lost market share, as the two competing consoles are valid contenders in their own right, but Microsoft was able to sustain a significant market share throughout. Add to the mix the wildly successful and record breaking Kinect platform and you’ve got one of the greatest Microsoft success stories since Windows was unleashed on the unsuspecting public.

If Microsoft was suffering this bumpy road two years ago, the stakes wouldn’t be as high. We could brush it off as a new technology with all the trials and tribulations that innovation inevitably drags along with it. However, Microsoft has no time for this now. They can’t afford to be this late to the party, and then fumble around for an excuse as to why their beer isn’t cold.

Microsoft’s deal with Nokia might be its saving grace. The immediately increased hardware base could give Microsoft the needed momentum to get past the growing pains that the Nodo update has shown us the reality of. On the other hand, if Microsoft inherits a huge entity like the Symbian OS, and is still plagued by the hurdles it is still trying the get over, it may only make things worse. WP7 has been critically acclaimed for its streamlined UI and user-friendly feature set, but quality isn’t the only factor in successful sales push. Microsoft needs to get their act back together of they hope to ultimately be successful again in the mobile world.

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I'm not sure Joe Blow knows about the NODO update.

Probably has more to do with the ugly metro ui than NODO update.

I am still a MS fanboy, but i agree with the editor in suggesting the MS is starting to fail. MS stayed with XP too long and screwed up Vista. MS then slept through the first few years of the Smartphone revolution. MS has already been knocked out of the Tablet space. XBOX 360 took too long for a refresh which basically caught up with what Sony had already done more than a year earlier. Clearly Ballmer needs to go.

The problem I feel is that Microsoft is spread too thin sometimes. I love the interface on WP7 and really glad Microsoft pushed something new. I don't think they have failed yet. I mean did people scream Apple Failed when they had some of their first iPhone issues or the Antennagate issue? Droid has had is fair share of issues as well. The biggest issue I see is the usual for Microsoft and thats marketing. Its quite bad, I mean yeah there are the few WP7 commercials but thats not enough. I go to a Tech school and even there we have people who have never heard of Windows Phone 7. Microsoft needs to get their heads out of their asses and realized the common person is not a geek and will read geek blogs all the time for the latest gadgets. Why would you invest all this time and money into a product and fail to deliver or fail to market

It is a shame, I really like WP7 as a platform, It is really nice to use! Loads of support and incentives to use it as well!

It seem's as though it came to the market at such a time where it wasn't really required. With Android, iOS, BB-OS and Symbian being firmly cemented as the biggest mobile phone OS's.

Microsoft have a lot more work to do though if they want to claw some users over to them.

IMHO, they should of just released ONE handset and not flooded it with similarly spec'd devices.

DiamondFootprint said,
IMHO, they should of just released ONE handset and not flooded it with similarly spec'd devices.

I disagree. Yes the devices are rather similar, but that's the fault of the manufacturers! Non of them did more than use the minimum hardware specification. That's the reason why all devices seem kind a similar.

this is like IE9 vis Chrome...
here Android conquered the phone market, its only a matter of time when Chrome will conquer the browser market

allwynd said,
this is like IE9 vis Chrome...
here Android conquered the phone market, its only a matter of time when Chrome will conquer the browser market

It already is

With deference to the author's intelligence, I will keep this simplistic...

Dribble, Dribble, Ignorance

There is such a lack of understanding of the market model that WP7 fills, it is flat out scary that the author actually presents this article in an authoritarian manner.

It is like listening to a two year old child, completely rationalize and explain that 2 + 2 = 2. In their mind it seems so logic and simple, as they can show that the formula has one digit plus one digit, which equals two digits.

Word was going to fail, Word for Windows was going to fail, Windows 3.0 was going to fail, Windows NT would never be able to compete with Novell, Excel could never beat Lotus, Visual Basic was worthless, .NET was a fad, the XBox was doomed, Microsoft DirectX was failing, Microsoft shader technology in DX8 was worthless, Microsoft's Unified GPU shader technology was going to fail, Windows 7 was just Vista with lipstick...

And on and on and on we have heard this crap from people that have no understanding even now why these products not only succeeded, but influenced the entire world.

The only thing this article needs to make it any more laughable, is the author adding a PS declaring this the year of the Linux desktop.

Here is a small reality check for anyone that buys this crap... Samsung, Motorola, Nokia...
Android is dying on the vine, after this generation of phone sales, which will end in a year or two, people will not return to the platform. MFRs are also running from the platform, as the development and support costs to put it on each device is barely less work than building their own OS.

WP7 can fail, but Microsoft is commited to it for several years, and has the integration with their products and money to keep it interesting. And if WP7 does fail in 3 or 4 years, it will be the iPhone sweeping the market, not Android.


----


Most users are not even running one of the last TWO versions of Android released, and yet there is an author like this ****ing and moaning about the first update for WP7 not being perfectly smooth. Really?

spot on with almost everything you mention here, especially with the insightfulness into the real costs of development or integration into the Android platform. It's a lot like the metaphor of Linux being free in the enterprise, which has evolved from it's community roots and since been vertically integrated into the enterprise market with the similar consulting models as the incumbent I would assume.

There seems to be little more going on here than just a whirlwind of pictures, charts with references, and slightly arrogantly bias assumption journaled as an authorative snapshot of the consumer end of the market.

The sidetrack into the gaming solidity of Microsoft's Live platform does give you a sense that the author is trying draw a parallel to work out where a new comer into the smart phone market fits into the myriad of seemingly better choices on offer but then makes no mention of any particular depth of understanding of these platforms besides what would be expected from a consumerist viewpoint.

Android is to Google services as 'theres an app for that' is to Apple as PSP(whatevertheheck) is to Sony services as WP7 is to Microsoft services, and I think we all understand that the development horsepower behind players like Microsoft is as always ever present, we are just yet to see it rise to expectations.

There's a problem here, too many either impatient or immature users blaming Microsoft for everything, it's easy for me to be a fan and talk crap especially when I'm not really responsible for anything to do with Windows Phone 7, but I do spend all my professional time dealing in the business world.

My observations here are different than that of a enthusiast or tech journalist/pundit, the issue here seems to be the carriers, while. It would seem the easiest thing to do is to come out and play a blame game Microsft is remaining quiet about what's really going on.

The carriers especially AT&t are dragging their feet, there is some kind of political moves being made here, but Microsft needs the carriers especially this early in the game. using Apple isn't a good example because they came into the game and AT&t had no idea how big the iPhone would be, it literally can make or break a competitor who is at a disadvantage if they don't have it.

Android isn't a good example as well, Google gives Android away and the carriers can do what ever they want with it, Google just wants the search data for advertising revenue, and Android is the personification of a fractured OS, some carriers have not updated certain phones forever a year and show no desire to do so.

If some WP7 users feel betrayed or impatient, I would strongly recommend the iPhone , it's been out on the market for several years and has so much momentum that Apple dictates what and how the phone gets updated. android is a toss, you may or may not get lucky depending on the handset and carrier.

I'll stick to my Focus.

Joe05 said,
....
I'll stick to my Focus.

+1

I was burned by the sting of previous iterations of the windows mobile platform. Now that they've reimagined the metaphor, I find myself delighted to pick up the phone and be presented with flashcards of modified data (after sliding the lock screen). Once I get my bearings with how my world has changed, I delve into the task for which I powered on the screen. From there it's just as simple as every other platform.

Unless I need to take a picture. Then, the metaphor is that of a camera, and guess what? It functions like, wait for it; a camera. Not a phone, a camera. Then when the pictures are over, it's a phone again. Sure there are bugs with what MS believed to be default vs customizable settings, and are addressing some of this in NoDo with future enhancements coming in Mango.

The update fiasco will fade, and people will marvel at the cooperation and speed at which Microsoft and partners can execute. Then we will be forced into scheduled updates like corporate America will demand after adopting it as the new standard for communication.

This will be the point in which the desktop and phone OSes will merge. Consider it Windows vNext+1. Once this happens, WP7 and it's bretheren will be relegated to the 'feature level' OS and true multitasking or 'smartphone' OS will dominate the landscape.

Then the CE based phones will go the way of the Kin, and Zune (hardware), Symbian.

In this time, we will see XBOXgo (kinect enabled xbox handheld(zune hardware)+zune software platform), windows phone, windows entertainment desktop, windows business desktop and a plethora of server variations. Each version of windows being essentially the same code with different shells for purpose built solutions.


In any event, the Focus is a nice phone and I look forward to NoDo sometime in the near future.

Only geeks read this stuff you are writing. The average Windows Phone 7 user (99% of them) has no idea an update is coming, if its late or what it does.

NO ONE CARES.

What they do care about is the cheap price and the new UI, and if they apps they want are on it. That is nothing more.

I am getting sick and tired of articles that declare the death of something that just started its existence. Why XYZ is failing... come on, at some time in the future iOS will fail. You have a chart with two numbers. Even iOS only made +0.1%. This can hardly be used as a measure to predict the future. Good for a controversial article sure, but does it have content? I think not.
http://wmpoweruser.com/ovum-pr...arket-overtake-ios-by-2016/
Yes, you may call me a WP7 fanboy, I own one and I am extremely happy with it. Just like many other users.

Windows Mobile 7 promised a lot, and delivered very little. Fragmentation? Not a problem Microsoft says. We'll just dictate the specifications to OEM's, that'll solve that. Well, not quite it seems...

Windows mobile platforms 6.5/7 are going to fade into obscurity; even Nokia can't them.

Flawed said,
Windows Mobile 7 promised a lot, and delivered very little. Fragmentation? Not a problem Microsoft says. We'll just dictate the specifications to OEM's, that'll solve that. Well, not quite it seems...
Every single phone is getting the update. Every single one.

Windows Mobile 7 does not exist. Windows Phone 7 does. It is a completely different OS under the hood from WM6.x.

Pssst! Want to know why I didn't buy a windows phone 7?

Because I was once the owner o a windows mobile 6.1 phone! God I hated that clunky piece of crap. I sure miss my stylin stylus lol!!! I tried to like win mobile, I even forced the "love" by flashing custom 6.5 roms. It took me a while to come to my senses and realize Microsoft just sucked at the phone. I was one of those people, who didn't want to admit the iPhone was waaaay better than the w'mobile platform.

I'm glad I realized that Microsoft phones would always suck. Im glad I stuck it out until Verizon adopted the iPhone tho. I love the iPhone. I don't have to flash roms everyday to love the device. It just....works. And works well. I just wish Verizon got iOS updates like the rest of the world...it's starting to **** me off!

dbdank said,
Pssst! Want to know why I didn't buy a windows phone 7?

Because I was once the owner o a windows mobile 6.1 phone! God I hated that clunky piece of crap. I sure miss my stylin stylus lol!!! I tried to like win mobile, I even forced the "love" by flashing custom 6.5 roms. It took me a while to come to my senses and realize Microsoft just sucked at the phone. I was one of those people, who didn't want to admit the iPhone was waaaay better than the w'mobile platform.

I'm glad I realized that Microsoft phones would always suck. Im glad I stuck it out until Verizon adopted the iPhone tho. I love the iPhone. I don't have to flash roms everyday to love the device. It just....works. And works well. I just wish Verizon got iOS updates like the rest of the world...it's starting to **** me off!

I had the exact same revolation, but I had to suffer through Win Mobile 5. I was sure checking for "Windows Updates" to fix all the problems, but not one for the years I owned it.

I always dissed Apple because of Macs, but they got it right with iPhone. It's so powerful, quick, easy.. almost perfect. I wish it had a few more cloud file sharing services and maybe and SD slot... But regardless, I once was blind and now I see.

dbdank said,
I was one of those people, who didn't want to admit the iPhone was waaaay better than the w'mobile platform.
Just to be clear, Windows Mobile 6.x and Windows Phone 7 are completely different. They started fresh from the OS perspective.

With that said, I can understand losing faith in a company's model, and believing they just don't "get it."

dbdank said,
I just wish Verizon got iOS updates like the rest of the world...it's starting to **** me off!
To help put your mind at ease, I believe that iOS 4.2.6, on the Verizon iPhone, is practically feature identical to 4.3 on the GSM iPhone's. Similar to the iPad, I imagine the lack of movement for the Verizon iPhone relates to the fact that they now have to merge things. You may be missing the recent Safari improvements though, but I doubt you'd notice it too much regardless.

This is the result of the level of secrecy at Apple. Part of the iOS team probably didn't even know active, real development for the CDMA iPhone was happening, and thus those changes now have to be merged together. Merging large code bases can be a serious time sink, and to make sure it's done without [many] bugs can take a very long. It's a little crazy that Apple's secrecy causes this, but your phone will eventually sync up. I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't until iOS 5.0 though, but that's only 3-4 months away now and should result in a few cool features at least.

At least the column is boldly marked as Editorial, so fair enough. That said, it's just an opinion piece, with the advantage that the author has access to a tech site to air his grievances.

Agreed, MS and the various WP7 manufacturers/carriers need to get their act together and quickly. iOS and Android can be overtaken and beaten in the long run, but it was never going to be a quick or easy contest.

WP7 is still way better than Android. I moved from my iPhone 3Gs to an HTC Inspire 4G for 3 days before I returned it, it was terrible. My wife has a Samsung Focus and I could definitely see myself moving to WP7, I could never go to Android again.

Windows 8 will run on ARM and mobile hardware will be fast enough to run it smoothly. WP7 will be trashed soon after, if not before it's released.

SpyderCanopus said,
Windows 8 will run on ARM and mobile hardware will be fast enough to run it smoothly. WP7 will be trashed soon after, if not before it's released.

Yeah I can really imagine W8 on a smartphone. *facepalm*

SpyderCanopus said,
Windows 8 will run on ARM and mobile hardware will be fast enough to run it smoothly. WP7 will be trashed soon after, if not before it's released.
The rumor is that they will use the Windows 8 kernel for Windows Phone 8.

pickypg said,
The rumor is that they will use the Windows 8 kernel for Windows Phone 8.

Paul Thurrot? Heard that one too. Gotta think that they are about to phase out CE and focus completely on NT - is there anything besides WP7 and Embedded Compact that's based on CE?

MFH said,

I have a limited imagination *facepalm*

Yup.

Not too difficult. I predict 3 shells to Windows vNext. Depending on base HW configuration, you will be defaulted into certain shells.

Now that I've opened the channel of creative thinking, has your imagination improved?


MFH said,

Paul Thurrot? Heard that one too. Gotta think that they are about to phase out CE and focus completely on NT - is there anything besides WP7 and Embedded Compact that's based on CE?

And it won't be compatible with existing WP7 devices ( just like WinMo 6.5 to WP7).

dotf said,

Yup.
Not too difficult. I predict 3 shells to Windows vNext. Depending on base HW configuration, you will be defaulted into certain shells.
Now that I've opened the channel of creative thinking, has your imagination improved?

Yeah, i can really see Windows8 on a Phone now - I'll just have to carry two big SLI batterys arround me the whole time to get 3 days of battery life, but that's okay, as long as it's Windows 8 *double-facepalm*

alexalex said,

And it won't be compatible with existing WP7 devices ( just like WinMo 6.5 to WP7).


How come? Al you would need were drivers for the hardware…

SpyderCanopus said,
Windows 8 will run on ARM and mobile hardware will be fast enough to run it smoothly. WP7 will be trashed soon after, if not before it's released.

WP7 is essentially an application static based on Silverlight and XNA running on top of a Windows CE kernel. Microsoft can easily have this run on top of ARM-based NT kernel. It would be called WP8, and it wouldn't be trashing anything they developed for WP7.

bj55555 said,

WP7 is essentially an application static based on Silverlight and XNA running on top of a Windows CE kernel. Microsoft can easily have this run on top of ARM-based NT kernel. It would be called WP8, and it wouldn't be trashing anything they developed for WP7.


True, thanks to .NET developers can't depend on any native deisgn of the OS. So Microsoft could essentially change anything they want in the underlying platform an the OS itself still would support the previous gen apps. That's the power of .NET and a main reason why I as a old-school-C++-Hacker believe in C♯…

MFH said,
Paul Thurrot? Heard that one too. Gotta think that they are about to phase out CE and focus completely on NT - is there anything besides WP7 and Embedded Compact that's based on CE?
Yes, I believe that's where I saw the original rumor. I can't think of any other OS built on top of Windows CE except maybe Zune. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_CE#Versions
alexalex
And it won't be compatible with existing WP7 devices ( just like WinMo 6.5 to WP7).
Talk about the death of a platform. What developers would follow a platform that rebooted itself every year or two? No one. As the others have mentioned, by having developers write code using .NET tools, they can simply run the same binaries on the future WP8, WP9, etc. This is identical to Java.

This is also how I expect Microsoft to encourage PC developers in the future to develop. This will continue to simplify Windows development moving forward, especially given that Windows 8 will support ARM processors (and thus, code written in C/C++ will at least need to be recompiled just to work).

Edited by pickypg, Mar 28 2011, 3:09pm : Internal quote spacing

It's been 3 days, it is not the end of the world. I don't even remember Microsoft saying it would be released to everyone on the 22nd.

Fail? You only fail if you quit. To think nobody can compete with apple and google is stupid. In order to keep with them, your going to need to stick with what you sell. Microsoft can compete with google and apple, but it isn't going to happen over night. It's going to take probably years. Microsoft is perfectly capable of doing so. Integrating it in with all the other products is going to make people want it more. If they half-@$ advertising and stuff like they did with the zune, they will fail.

Let me tell Microsoft how to gain revenues and sell more phones!!!.................

Just lower the damn price, and watch how it can surparse all the competition....

Nuno Relvao said,
Just lower the damn price, and watch how it can surparse all the competition....

Where I live the WP7 devices have a lower subsidy price than iPhone or BlackBerry. However those phones still outsell because people either want the iPhone regardless of rational thought, or cannot live without BBM (BlackBerry Messenger).

It's not the price, it's the current ecosystem.

dotf said,

Where I live the WP7 devices have a lower subsidy price than iPhone or BlackBerry. However those phones still outsell because people either want the iPhone regardless of rational thought, or cannot live without BBM (BlackBerry Messenger).

It's not the price, it's the current ecosystem.


I agree with you. Here you can get all available devices for 300€ without a contract. Compared to an iPhone (700€ and up…) that's really low. I'm tempted to buy a device since they were released, but there a still things that hold me back…

Fail, where? it's working wonderfully fine in my device, sure the updates have delayed a little bit more than expected, but nothing is wrong with the OS itself in the first place, and it is selling just fine to the best of my knowledge, NOTHING is broken on it, it is working exactly as I was expecting it to work when it was sold to me.

Neowin seems to be creating more and more sensational articles lately, really sad....

I will be moving from my Samsung Focus to an Android based device if Microsoft does not stop allowing carriers to block updates and does not release updates for all devices simultaneously. I'm not interested in being controlled by my carrier, Rogers, they already have enough control, nor am I interested in waiting for a staged rollout.

tylerc said,
I will be moving from my Samsung Focus to an Android based device if Microsoft does not stop allowing carriers to block updates and does not release updates for all devices simultaneously. I'm not interested in being controlled by my carrier, Rogers, they already have enough control, nor am I interested in waiting for a staged rollout.

It's not that difficult to debrand your phone. It's just a key in the registry you have to clear. Then you wouldn't have that problem.

If people were that desperate for the update, they would carrier unlock their phone and then get the update straight away. This update looks like it is going to take at least 2-3 weeks to hit my carrier Optus

HQ Mattster said,
If people were that desperate for the update, they would carrier unlock their phone and then get the update straight away. This update looks like it is going to take at least 2-3 weeks to hit my carrier Optus
well, I debranded mine expecting this, and guess what.. Still no ****ing update :'(

Most of us are so far removed from what what features the update will have. The update process is what's ****ingmost of us off. Being a patient early adopter is one thing, this whole fiasco should bother everyone with a WP7

Did they really need to show us on that table that Total Smartphone Subscribers is 100%? I mean, no **** Sherlock...

SK[ said,]Did they really need to show us on that table that Total Smartphone Subscribers is 100%? I mean, no **** Sherlock...
To be fair, I imagine that the chart is a standard chart that allows for a lot more totals than just in markets with 5 or so competitors. In such cases, I imagine they only display the more interesting portions of the table and then the sum is more useful.

Well I have to say all the idots that say things like 'Android FTW' and 'IOS rocks' need to grow up. I for one believe there is space in the market for another phone os. I had iPhone I got bored with it, I wanted a change so I followed Windows phone 7 development very closely with interest. I finally jumped off the Apple bandwagon in January and I'm glad I did. I am very happy with my Win pho device (Sammy Omnia 7 WITH nodo). I also accept that it won't be quite up to speed as with some of the more established smart phones.

To address the argument that Android has loads of choice out there, it wasn't like that in the early days actually I found it a shocking os BUT time moved on and now it is a major player with software and hardware support.

Anyone who bleats about no copy and paste as a missing feature need to understand all about early adoption, this is a feature that is now available a mere 6 months after release. Get a grip.

This editorial is just an opinion one that I personally think is wrong but that's all it is.

One more thing since has the likes of Google and Apple been all soft and furry? They are mega corporations just like Microsoft, they sell product. I'm glad that Microsoft has offered a viable alternative to Android, IOS, WebOs et al.

I enjoy my Windows phone, I'm looking forward to seeing how it evolves because make no mistake it will.

Maybe we'll see a different editorial from the original writer of this one in a few months one with perhaps less hyperbole.

Microsoft has been lazy with the mobile platform since always... I've been a Windows Mobile user since the first HP Pocket PC was released and there was no update at all, only once when Windows Mobile was 5 and it had to be upgraded to the 5.2 or something like that, but the improvements where small, it felt like a Service Pack than anything else.

Now I have a Samsung Focus with Windows Phone 7 and I love it but I must admit that they're moving very slow. Just happened that my brother bought an iPhone4 two days ago and it was the first time for me to have an iPhone4 in my hands, it turned out that I liked it, compared to the first time I had an iPhone2 when I hated it. Of course, Apple has years in the field, they have had not so good moments also but in general the outcome has been above the standars. We can't hide the fact that Apple has done a very good job through the years with the iPhone, even I as a Microsoft's fan, I am also a critic of MS's work.

I like Windows Phone platform but taking in consideration Windows's history and what it has been for Microsoft to turn Windows, from the hateable Windows ME to the nice Windows 7, Windows Phone has a looong way to go to be up to date.

My annoyance right now are the lot of missing APIs, the lack of a nice GPS application with decent maps, a way to manually configure MMS server settings, a way to keep the settings of the camera when it exits. There are some other bugs but I can live with them.

The problem with Microsoft, and they've done the same thing with Internet Explorer.. they focus their attention on other areas and lose focus on a particular product or market. With Windows Mobile / Windows Phone, they neglected it for too long, and Apple / Google / RIM came up and bit them on the ass.. and before they knew what day of the week it was they had lost great swathes of market share.

IE is the same. They neglected it, Chrome and Firefox came out and were great, and now it's down to advertising and publicity campaigns to try and tell people that it's not the stinker it once was.

I don't say this as someone who hates Windows Phone.. indeed whilst I own an Android phone, I'm quite keen to look into Windows Phone when my next upgrade rolls around in about 8 months time. I just worry that Microsoft only want to "do enough" to keep this product as a player in the market, and not really invest the resources and effort to make it class leading. And that's always the problem.

Interestingly, over at wpcentral.com they've just posted an article 'Windows Phone poised to overtake RIM?'... stories like this one is just 'ignore'.

Diagramatic said,
Interestingly, over at wpcentral.com they've just posted an article 'Windows Phone poised to overtake RIM?'... stories like this one is just 'ignore'.

and if you had read that story it was hypothetical and aimed at happening around 2016

They are all hypothetical, but I think market analysts are a bit* more trustworthy than a newbie reporter on a amateur news website.

* - just a bit ;-)

This is a very lousy editorial due to the fact the author doesn't know what hes talking about. Just because a update has been delayed doesn't mean the phone is going to fail. I personally was very happy with WP7 RTM, the only reason I prematurally upgraded with a XDA rom was so my developer tools would stay in sync.

With Andriod looking like it might move to a closed source platform(based on Honeycomb) and with little to no improvements with the iPhone, its just another bias article from a guy with a big megaphone . There isn't proof that most of the WP7 userbase are going to jump ship simply because of an upgrade...most people probably don't even know about it tbh.

eviltwigflipper said,
This is a very lousy editorial due to the fact the author doesn't know what hes talking about. Just because a update has been delayed doesn't mean the phone is going to fail. I personally was very happy with WP7 RTM, the only reason I prematurally upgraded with a XDA rom was so my developer tools would stay in sync.

With Andriod looking like it might move to a closed source platform(based on Honeycomb) and with little to no improvements with the iPhone, its just another bias article from a guy with a big megaphone . There isn't proof that most of the WP7 userbase are going to jump ship simply because of an upgrade...most people probably don't even know about it tbh.

+1

It's kind of premature to think WP7 has failed, especially if you're basing it on the "NoDo" update. A late update is by no means a reason to switch to Android whose update strategy is the worst amongst smartphones. Get serious.

The OS was my main concern when they released WP7 and as far as I'm concerned, they passed with flying colors. The rest can be fixed or ironed out.

It's 2011 and most European countries still aren't fully supported by WP7. It doesn't support the Dutch language, nor do I have access to paid content in the Marketplace because I live in the Netherlands. It's the Zune all over again.

The fact Microsoft can't/won't do a proper international launch is a complete joke.

You can't just make 1 firmware upgrade, they have to make sure every phone from every carrier has its own upgrade. Microsoft is learning from this.

jesseinsf said,
You can't just make 1 firmware upgrade, they have to make sure every phone from every carrier has its own upgrade. Microsoft is learning from this.

Learning? They knew all this at the start, they decided on the upgrade system!

Byron_Hinson said,

Learning? They knew all this at the start, they decided on the upgrade system!

Weren't all those update issues specific to Samsung because they didn't follow the spec? How does any company plan for that, pyschics, tarot cards, or tea leaves?

This is just poor journalism and I'm afraid that Neowin is becoming a bit of a snoozeville for me these days. I can remember not that long ago it was my 1st port of call for the latest "accurate" technews but OMG zzzzzz

Microsoft jumps into everything, they just never really seem to follow through.

I love their hardware, their software is always very good (unless its aimed at the general publics stupid basic needs such as Windows) but they just stretch too far. This isn't a loss for MS, I just hope they carry on and consider all their users, not just the basic ones.

Orange Battery said,
Microsoft jumps into everything, they just never really seem to follow through.

I love their hardware, their software is always very good (unless its aimed at the general publics stupid basic needs such as Windows) but they just stretch too far. This isn't a loss for MS, I just hope they carry on and consider all their users, not just the basic ones.

I do think they are refocusing on their stronger products in recent times. Providing more updates for their software and being more open e.g. sdk's (kinect for example).

Just get an Android/iPhone and get on with your life. Trusting a Microsoft mobile device is like trusting a ship with holes in it.

Educated Idiot said,
Just get an Android/iPhone and get on with your life. Trusting a Microsoft mobile device is like trusting a ship with holes in it.

Your name suits you just fine.

Neowin has jumped onto the anti-WP7 bandwagon a little too late.

Microsoft finally did what everyone with a WP7 device wanted: they released NoDo. Now it is down to a short, reported schedule, and the carriers not dragging their feet.

If you look at the schedule, you can quickly see where Microsoft is rolling out updates, and where carriers are dragging their feet.

As expected, US carriers are dragging their feet. You can see this by observing the fact that even the February update is marked as "Testing."

Phase breakdown:

Testing: Carrier is the block
Scheduling: Microsoft is the block
Delivering: Carrier is the block

It has taken a few long months to get to this point, but Microsoft finally is on the right track. Not the wrong track. They are communicating, and they have released the update as promised and it appears to even include a few tweaks and fixes that were unexpected, yet always welcome.

As long as they continue communicating and releasing the update, then Microsoft has done the right thing and WP7 will succeed. If they fall back to no communication and fragmenting the update process (a scheduled rollout is not fragmented--it's just slow, but a lack of updates for a specific range/carrier/phone is fragmentation), then WP7 will fail.

But until then, it has just been a frustrating process of dealing with the first real update to the platform.

We got what we wanted: Microsoft to both release the update and to clarify the process. They have done both. I am no longer upset with Microsoft about this subject anymore. While I feel like Microsoft should have the ability to roll out updates just like Apple (to everyone at once), they clearly were working to keep the carriers happy. As long as they are a small player in the current market, then the carriers will have more power. I believe that once Nokia comes into the equation, then WP7 updates will probably go through the carriers a bit faster, as Nokia has a big interest in avoiding bad press on their newest platform.

My next Microsoft concern? The pace of updates. They certainly suggested rapid development of the platform, and waiting for two large updates across the year is only okay. I am mostly hoping that the rumors are true and IE9 will hit WP7 sometime in the summer, even before Mango.

pickypg said,
Neowin has jumped onto the anti-WP7 bandwagon a little too late.

Microsoft finally did what everyone with a WP7 device wanted: they released NoDo. Now it is down to a short, reported schedule, and the carriers not dragging their feet.

If you look at the schedule, you can quickly see where Microsoft is rolling out updates, and where carriers are dragging their feet.

As expected, US carriers are dragging their feet. You can see this by observing the fact that even the February update is marked as "Testing."

Phase breakdown:

Testing: Carrier is the block
Scheduling: Microsoft is the block
Delivering: Carrier is the block

It has taken a few long months to get to this point, but Microsoft finally is on the right track. Not the wrong track. They are communicating, and they have released the update as promised and it appears to even include a few tweaks and fixes that were unexpected, yet always welcome.

As long as they continue communicating and releasing the update, then Microsoft has done the right thing and WP7 will succeed. If they fall back to no communication and fragmenting the update process (a scheduled rollout is not fragmented--it's just slow, but a lack of updates for a specific range/carrier/phone is fragmentation), then WP7 will fail.

But until then, it has just been a frustrating process of dealing with the first real update to the platform.

We got what we wanted: Microsoft to both release the update and to clarify the process. They have done both. I am no longer upset with Microsoft about this subject anymore. While I feel like Microsoft should have the ability to roll out updates just like Apple (to everyone at once), they clearly were working to keep the carriers happy. As long as they are a small player in the current market, then the carriers will have more power. I believe that once Nokia comes into the equation, then WP7 updates will probably go through the carriers a bit faster, as Nokia has a big interest in avoiding bad press on their newest platform.

My next Microsoft concern? The pace of updates. They certainly suggested rapid development of the platform, and waiting for two large updates across the year is only okay. I am mostly hoping that the rumors are true and IE9 will hit WP7 sometime in the summer, even before Mango.

Completely agree. I get the impression that just because NoDo wasnt immediately available and we are having to wait for it to be processed then it's an 'Epic Fail'.

Android suffers from the same "must brand the phone to hell" therefore making updates delayed or just not appear at all.

Personally I like the fact Apple force all carriers to use a base model with no ****ty customisation boot screens etc. When an update releases its there for everyones taking.

This is why I will be ditching my HTC Desire phone as soon as my contract ends.

}SK{ said,
Personally I like the fact Apple force all carriers to use a base model with no ****ty customisation boot screens etc. When an update releases its there for everyones taking.
I prefer that too.

Although I see the point of this article concerning the incredible delay of NoDo for our phones, this article makes it believe that, just like mentioned above, the WP7 platform is doomed to fail. Yes, people are desperate to get the copy&paste feature but it's not like all of a sudden WP7 sales will stop because of that. In fact, all new customers who are buying WP7 devices right now are getting their devices with NoDo preinstalled already; so there's no problem with them but us early adapters. The fact that PRs like this article mention that it is the NoDo delay that will be the reason why WP7 will die , this could affect the people's view towards the phone just like that pessimist and bad publicity done towards Windows Vista by Apple. This all sounds like Windows Phone 7 devices are not worth without NoDo which is not the case.

"At least with Android, it's no secret that your carrier update is going to take a long time. "

The article miserably fails to mention the recent information GIVEN BY Microsoft about the status of NoDo for all phones.

It is no wonder. Ballmer has kicked out in the last 1.5 years top 10 managers that were smarter, brighter, more inovative.. than himself , just to keep his throne. That's part of the reasons for this fail.

eliokh said,
can anyone tell me what is the nodo update?
dont have time to google it

Copy/Paste, slight and I mean slight speed in loading improvements and marketplace fixes/improvements...little else

Byron_Hinson said,

Copy/Paste, slight and I mean slight speed in loading improvements and marketplace fixes/improvements...little else

Then what's whit all the "fail" and hate about Microsoft and the WP7 updates?

I ask because everyone seems so eager to get the update, yet no one really "need" it. The phones are working very well and certainly can benefit from the NoDo update and obviously from the upcoming Mango and others but there's no need to call it a failure just because they had some problems getting the first update out.

If they repeat it with the upcoming updates, well, we all can call it as wee see it, but as of now, WP7 works and there is no need to rush and say they a re failing because of delays the first time around.

The article is nor fair for many reasons. Apple for instance, has release an 'update' to IOS4 that will make 3G iPhones so slow they can only be used as phones. I could not believe it until I saw a friend's iPhone: opening an SMS will take several seconds! And Apple does not respond to this, they don't fix it, there is no way back, you are just supposed to buy a new iPhone 4, that's the solution for the upgrade. As for Android, granted, any geek can get the latest Android OS into their phone, multi boot, etc. But none of this is authorized. There are just a few carrier approved and released upgrades for Android phones. Carriers will be extra carefull not to get into a PR and support nightmare just for upgrading a phone. I have many Android geek friends that have upgraded their phone, then rolled it back because it gets slow, or has some bug, but these are a profile of people that are tech savvy and don't even complain, they just fix the stuff themselves. Windows Phone, just like IOS has official, carrier supported, software vendor supported upgrades, and both MS and carriers must take responsibility of any issue that comes out from the update. For this reason, extensive testing will be required, expecially given the many hardware manufacturers and models, and given that it is the first version of the upgrade system. In the meantime, the release Windows Phone, which I have, is very competitive, I do not miss much the lack of copy and paste, has the best music service in a phone, and the games are great quality. Apps look better in WP than in other devices and the OS is filled with little nice details that make it easier to use and it has better integration with cloud and corporate services than the competition. I'm a geek myself, but I have a friend that is computer illiterate and had an Android before and bought a WP after seeying mine and he loves the phone, he will never miss or use copy and paste and marketplace enhancements of the NoDo update, but he is now using more the text message all the time and maps and some search and voice commands because he finds it easier to use and he found the features himself. So, it's all subjective. Most people here are geeks and assuming that the world will think like us is a mistake. Not everybody is interested in unlimited customization, hackability, ability to boot multiple versions and update to the very latests version of the OS the day it comes out. Most people want a phone that works, is fast, easy to use and maintain, and provides the info that you want fast and beautifully, and if you have tried WP7 you'll have to admit, if you are honest, that WP7 is actually quite good at these things.

Charles Keledjian said,
Apple for instance, has release an 'update' to IOS4 that will make 3G iPhones so slow they can only be used as phones. I could not believe it until I saw a friend's iPhone: opening an SMS will take several seconds! And Apple does not respond to this, they don't fix it, there is no way back, you are just supposed to buy a new iPhone 4, that's the solution for the upgrade.
To be fair, Apple did largely fix this issue. The iPhone 3G running 4.2.1 is vastly superior to the iPhone 3G running 4.0. I believe their original intent was to scare users into upgrading, but they quickly saw the support nightmare develop, so they fixed it.

The most bogus part about all current cell phone upgrade phase out processes is that no one has been honest about it. Apple has been incredibly dishonest. Android manufacturers have been dishonest, and Microsoft has yet to hit the point to phase out their hardware.

Apple: They were selling the iPhone 3G (8 GB model) running up to the release of the iPhone 4. The iPhone 3G did not receive the most recent iOS update (4.3) and likely will not receive any future updates either. In other words, a phone purchased in May 2010, or even June 2010 is now stuck in no-update land. The exact same situation will repeat itself with the current iPhone 3GS (8 GB model for sale currently). iOS 5.0 will come out with limited support for it, and eventually it will die out before iOS 6.0. I find it incredibly dishonest to sell the two-generation old iPhone, and then phase it so rapidly.

Android: There is not even a guarantee that you'll get the very next update, so this one kind of writes itself. Still, if you happen to own a Nexus phone, then when will the Nexus One be phased out?

Microsoft: It's clear that all phones will get WP7 Mango, but eventually, I assume, they will have to stop supporting the older hardware.

Others: Palm has been wishy-washy on WebOS updates. RIM has no clear path.

Of the above, I honestly believe that Microsoft now has the best shot to clearly announce the phase out process. Certainly, no one wants to hear that their phone will no longer be supported, but I would greatly prefer to know it rather than to find it out simply through lack of corporate interest (all Android phones with no announced upgrade path, iPhone 3G, and soon-to-be iPhone 3GS).

If WP7 is going to fail, it's because of the prevailing market conditions, not because of one freaking (botched) update or two or three for that matter.

So Biased.

SO VERY BIASED.

Honestly, the only thing I hate more then bad journalism, is journalists oblivious to their own dribbling.

http://www.google.com.au/searc...oAw&fp=934c7700afa44ce9

Not a single mention of a bad install or issue. NOT ONE.

Furthermore, the forums are quiet about this as well. Everyone I know who has the update thinks that it is great, and was painless.

Ironically I agree that Microsoft aren't doing a good enough job, but your leading off with that bull**** image suggesting NoDo is failing to install is just POOR JOURNALISM.

I wish they would get their **** together, but I wish people like yourself would not write ******** like this..

articuno1au said,
So Biased.

SO VERY BIASED.

Honestly, the only thing I hate more then bad journalism, is journalists oblivious to their own dribbling.

http://www.google.com.au/searc...oAw&fp=934c7700afa44ce9

Not a single mention of a bad install or issue. NOT ONE.

Furthermore, the forums are quiet about this as well. Everyone I know who has the update thinks that it is great, and was painless.

Ironically I agree that Microsoft aren't doing a good enough job, but your leading off with that bull**** image suggesting NoDo is failing to install is just POOR JOURNALISM.

I wish they would get their **** together, but I wish people like yourself would not write ******** like this..

This isn't journalism, it's just blogging.

bob_c_b said,
So you are now denying people's phones bricked on the pre-update? Is it bad journalism and bias or does it just not fit your personal agenda?
The article does never mention the reason that image is displayed at the top. I imagine it's completely because it says "FAIL" in it, but "February update" is never mentioned in the article.

Then, the premise of the rest of the article is that early adopters will jump ship. Where too? They came to WP7 because of fragmentation on Android, disgust with iOS (or just Apple), or simply for a new OS. Each one of those is achieved prior to the update, and after the update. This original delay is almost entirely the fault of Samsung who botched it with bad firmware in their Samsung Omnia lineup. The remainder of problems relates to users not having enough free space, and a bad check.

Not to mention, everyone's contract will last them through the Mango update, which will really allow everyone to judge WP7. If this issue repeats itself, then that's a problem. But, Microsoft finally opened up communications on the issue and gave everyone a clear response.

Now that Microsoft has released the full update as well as a schedule that we can all check, the problems amount to a hiccup at best. Everyone will get the update. Fragmentation is off the list. There are open lines of communication, so we know what to expect. It's just a matter of when now, and we all have a rough idea, although I agree it could be made less by modifying their "Scheduling" to reflect real times at least for the "next" one in line.

bob_c_b said,
So you are now denying people's phones bricked on the pre-update? Is it bad journalism and bias or does it just not fit your personal agenda?

Actually those 5% of the phones did not brick on the pre-update - they needed a hard reset, but that's not a 'brick'.

The problem for Microsoft (and Google) is that they're almost completely dependent on the carriers and manufacturers to promote and sell the devices to end users. In order to justify the platform to the carriers, so have to make some concessions or otherwise the carriers will just tell them to pound sand.

The only reason Apple can get away with it is because they have a worldwide chain of retail stores and can promote and sell the iOS devices w/o the carriers' blessing.

I would love for WP7 and Android devices to have rapid, official (i.e. no hacking of the device required) update structures, but the harsh reality is that the carriers and OEMs have very little incentive to provide one (carriers want you to buy a new phone and extend your contract, so they can get more of your money. The OEMs rely on repeating sales to generate profit).

I started reading this article, found it slightly interesting... then I got to your 360 vs PS3 analysis. If your so clueless on that subject, your probably not much better on wp7. Pass.

autobon said,
I started reading this article, found it slightly interesting... then I got to your 360 vs PS3 analysis. If your so clueless on that subject, your probably not much better on wp7. Pass.

There was some mild bias in the console comparisons, but it wasn't that far off. Fanboy much?

I'm not sure why anyone is defending MS on this one, it's a failure so far. I loved my Samsung Focus, but the update bricked my phone so I walked away. MS should have followed the Apple model on firmware and carrier dealings, this is going to get much worse for them before it gets better.

bob_c_b said,
I'm not sure why anyone is defending MS on this one, it's a failure so far. I loved my Samsung Focus, but the update bricked my phone so I walked away. MS should have followed the Apple model on firmware and carrier dealings, this is going to get much worse for them before it gets better.

So Samsung screws up and changes the spec they are given, it bricks your phone...MS fixes the issue, which was not theirs, and you walk away? WTF?

What Ms needs to do is stop being such a meh company and push out the door more products like the kin where you have people going daaaaaaaaaaaaaaamn thats awesome.

McG said,
Whatever you think of this article, the market share doesn't lie.

Yeah let's not consider the years of saturation iOS and Android have had over WP7. Your logic is mind-numbing.

Xenosion said,

Yeah let's not consider the years of saturation iOS and Android have had over WP7. Your logic is mind-numbing.

20% drop after a new device is out ? that is a slaughter. This is US market share. In the world they have less than 1%.

alexalex said,

20% drop after a new device is out ? that is a slaughter. This is US market share. In the world they have less than 1%.

The drop you referred to is people leaving Windows Mobile, not people leaving Windows Phone. Also, it's ridiculous to claim that they're doomed because they only have 1% on a phone that's only been available for a few months.

alexalex said,

20% drop after a new device is out ? that is a slaughter. This is US market share. In the world they have less than 1%.


^agreed.
considering the fact that this INCLUDES WM 6.* and below as well as WP7, this really only shows that more and more contracts are running out for wml(windows mobile legacy) users, and they hate how firmly set wp7 is, so they switch to android, which actually is a lot more like wml than one would think.

Really bad article, hardly failing because of one update. WP7 devices work fine with or without the update, I still think these handsets have the greatest potential in what it could do, its quick its fast and on a pretty stable system. You should judge whether this device is failing based on sales, and if you compare WP7's initial sales compared to Android when it was released, its doing just fine. The app store is growing larger and larger (you cant expect it to compete with IOS and android app market because its a new phone). The potential for business apps for this phone is amazing, most corporate businesses use some sort of Microsoft software (office, windows, sharepoint, server). Just because Microsoft has a huge advantage with integrating their apps for the business end means this product has the ability for a long life. So in regards, the WP7 devices do not fail, your article fails because of your lack of facts supporting why this product is failing.

carson2255 said,
Really bad article, hardly failing because of one update. WP7 devices work fine with or without the update, I still think these handsets have the greatest potential in what it could do, its quick its fast and on a pretty stable system. You should judge whether this device is failing based on sales, and if you compare WP7's initial sales compared to Android when it was released, its doing just fine. The app store is growing larger and larger (you cant expect it to compete with IOS and android app market because its a new phone). The potential for business apps for this phone is amazing, most corporate businesses use some sort of Microsoft software (office, windows, sharepoint, server). Just because Microsoft has a huge advantage with integrating their apps for the business end means this product has the ability for a long life. So in regards, the WP7 devices do not fail, your article fails because of your lack of facts supporting why this product is failing.

Have a look back when iphone came out all their opinions and actions apple took and microsofts doing them exactly the same. Too add to that every windows phone 7 device atm works well because it's essentially all the same hardware snapdragon QSD8250/adreno 200 1GHz and 512/576 ram with a different exterior design (which might add this hardware is old [Q4 2008 release] by comparison with android devices coming out).

So they have a long way to go in their entire "eco system" system updates aside. If they fail to update or bring new devices to market and get everything running and not just applications or app store success then they're going fail simply because they can't get the basics of the mobile industry landscape right.

Digitalx said,

Have a look back when iphone came out all their opinions and actions apple took and microsofts doing them exactly the same. Too add to that every windows phone 7 device atm works well because it's essentially all the same hardware snapdragon QSD8250/adreno 200 1GHz and 512/576 ram with a different exterior design (which might add this hardware is old [Q4 2008 release] by comparison with android devices coming out).

So they have a long way to go in their entire "eco system" system updates aside. If they fail to update or bring new devices to market and get everything running and not just applications or app store success then they're going fail simply because they can't get the basics of the mobile industry landscape right.


Considering that WP7 Marketplace has been the fastest to 10,000 apps, I think that you are either a jealous android fan or an ifanboy who's idea of a good time is bashing anything microsoft. As a user myself, I can say that it doesn't need this year's tech in order to be a good phone, in fact, the new ipad has only a 900**MHz** proc in it not the advertised 1GHz proc. The funny thing is, it's not the h/w which makes the phone fast, it's the firmware. That's why apple can say that this new iPad 2 is faster than the old one, it's because of the firmware on the device, it really doesn't matter what the h/w is if the s/w is great, someone will buy it. Microsoft is just biding their time I'm sure until WP8 to announce any dual/quad/6 core phones, honestly it doesn't matter. the phone is better than Android imho in every way except one: no Wi-Fi tethering.

slayr007 said,

it doesn't need this year's tech in order to be a good phone…
it really doesn't matter what the h/w is if the s/w is great, someone will buy it…

Good points - actually proven by Microsoft countless times…

slayr007 said,

Considering that WP7 Marketplace has been the fastest to 10,000 apps, I think that you are either a jealous android fan or an ifanboy who's idea of a good time is bashing anything microsoft. As a user myself, I can say that it doesn't need this year's tech in order to be a good phone, in fact, the new ipad has only a 900**MHz** proc in it not the advertised 1GHz proc. The funny thing is, it's not the h/w which makes the phone fast, it's the firmware. That's why apple can say that this new iPad 2 is faster than the old one, it's because of the firmware on the device, it really doesn't matter what the h/w is if the s/w is great, someone will buy it. Microsoft is just biding their time I'm sure until WP8 to announce any dual/quad/6 core phones, honestly it doesn't matter. the phone is better than Android imho in every way except one: no Wi-Fi tethering.

Actually I ve read the other day you can enable wi fi tethering depending on some particular windows phone you have, just google it.

Another desperate iDroid writer looking for something to do on a Friday.

What makes me laugh is how Rim gets no stick, just Microsoft haters.

Alansonit said,
Another desperate iDroid writer looking for something to do on a Friday.

What makes me laugh is how Rim gets no stick, just Microsoft haters.

Cause RIM is practically zilch outside the US just like Nokia is inside the US. Nobody cares that much about them because they're as awful as symbian with their software and rely on established persons or enterprises who use their software and get tangled up in it and can't move from it to continue use.

Digitalx said,
ause RIM is practically zilch outside the US

What are you talking about? You see BlackBerrys everywhere here in the Netherlands... In fact last year they were outselling the iPhone here.

It's just teething problems I think. I'm starting to see more and more WP7 devices in the wild and random people posting with it in Facebook.

So I'm going to disagree. And frankly I'm getting fed up of all the sensationalist articles on Neowin recently.

agreed, teething problems nothing is 100% from the word go. Neowin does seem awash with windows bashing articles lately.

jonnyH said,
agreed, teething problems nothing is 100% from the word go. Neowin does seem awash with windows bashing articles lately.

And it's Neowin's fault that there is a lot of stuff to post about various failings at Microsoft?

what said,

And it's Neowin's fault that there is a lot of stuff to post about various failings at Microsoft?

Look Im not particularly happy with how sloppy this update is being handled but I certainly a sel-proclaimed MSFanboy. Love my Windows 7 PC, my Zune 80, my XBox 360, and now my Dell Venue Pro and what I love even more is how it all works together seameslly with Windows Live services.

jonnyH said,
agreed, teething problems nothing is 100% from the word go. Neowin does seem awash with windows bashing articles lately.

It's far from aimed like that, there are pluses and minuses to loads of MS stuff, same as Apple. It is an editorial and from a personal viewpoint as a WP7 user, I find the OS very poor and with little or no updates over 6 months since its release I felt let down. I wouldn't right now - recommend a WP7 device to anyone at all and thats saying something.

Byron_Hinson said,

I find the OS very poor and with little or no updates over 6 months since its release I felt let down.

So why did you get a device in the first place - thought it would magically change over night? (If you don't you don't even qualify for bashing the OS…)

Byron_Hinson said,

It's far from aimed like that, there are pluses and minuses to loads of MS stuff, same as Apple. It is an editorial and from a personal viewpoint as a WP7 user, I find the OS very poor and with little or no updates over 6 months since its release I felt let down. I wouldn't right now - recommend a WP7 device to anyone at all and thats saying something.


As a WP7 user and developer, I really could care less about when I get the update, I act like I want it more than a baby wants its mother's milk, but that's because i'm as impatient as hell. I love how It's so obvious that you don't know a thing about windows phone 7 and really have no experience with it, or if you do you really need to work on punctuation, grammar, and overall english because I can barely understand what your saying. (For some irony) ¡Use punctuación!

I'd say the biggest reason that its could be termed "failing" atm is the distinct lack of hardware.
New android phones seem to pop up daily, yet we have had what? A single WP7 device since launch? Thats pathetic.
MS need to push this OS to the carriers harder and let them do the heavy work of promoting it.
They need better and more frequent device launches so people can get exited about the latest dual core, 12 megapixel, HD, tegra, thingy-ma-jig.
Software updates are as far as most customers concerned (and highlighted by android) irrelevant.

the current spec for Wp7 devices are pretty top notch, not many (released) handsets are actually better hardware wise so why release more handsets just to have more devices in the wild?

jonnyH said,
the current spec for Wp7 devices are pretty top notch, not many (released) handsets are actually better hardware wise so why release more handsets just to have more devices in the wild?

Choice? Android sells because it is on so many handsets. Most people wouldnt even know what OS they are using.

the better twin said,
I'd say the biggest reason that its could be termed "failing" atm is the distinct lack of hardware.
New android phones seem to pop up daily, yet we have had what? A single WP7 device since launch? Thats pathetic.

Do you know what is funny? Almost all those Android phones are not for sale yet. Where is the Xperia Arc, Play, etc.
Where are the new Samsung Galaxy and the LTE version for Verizon?
Where are the new Evo for sale at any Sprint store?
Do you remember those Facebook phones made by HTC? Where are those for sale?

Heck, RIM could put to sale the rumored Storm 3 by the same time these others manufacturers start selling their just announced (key word) hardware. That is why Apple will beat those clowns unless they develop hardware that match (or surpass) the virtues of the iPhone 5. Like how Samsung did with the original Galaxy against the iPhone 4.

the better twin said,

Choice? Android sells because it is on so many handsets. Most people wouldnt even know what OS they are using.

Very true, I test this all the time. Normally the response is "What's an Android?"

the better twin said,

Choice? Android sells because it is on so many handsets. Most people wouldnt even know what OS they are using.

Yep choice sells, Android works well on a huge range of handsets and users can choose a device that is aimed at what they want to do....it's why its been a raging success and heck, users don't even know that it's an Android phone half the time.

Some people need to understand that the average consumers will not know NoDo exist until it is installed on their phone.
"OMG WP7 is failing because NoDo still isn't there!!1!!11!" isn't what's happening.

What a crappy article - this is trolling (badly) disguised as an editorial.
WP7 is not failing - it is doing better than ever, and once the first update jitters are solved (and most of them already are, bar slow mobile operators) and it is going to be great.

You should probably re-read the article then. Facts are sourced and ideas are drawn from those facts. It's a solid article.

Please learn that disagreement != trolling.

I think you need to re-read it yourself. There is only one fact in the article - the market share figure, which says absolutely nothing about WP7 as it is the figure including both Windows Mobile and Windows Phone. Obviously the Windows Mobile share dropped dramatically during the time when the brand new replacement was developed and launched, and obviously Windows Phone sales were (relatively) low because it is a brand new platform with serious promotion that kicked in only in 2011.

Everything else is the article is personal opinions ("unhappy conclusion"?), distorted comparisons (XBox would not stand ground against Wii, really?), and complete rubbish (Microsoft did not inherit Symbian).

The fact is that despite being a late comer to smartphone market, due to the growth of the market Microsoft still can (and will) capture a huge portion of the market - something that quite a few market analysts seem to think!

And Microsoft is doing a lot of things right - they had a "test" update first, which revealed Samsung issue which is now fixed for NoDo. They are publishing delivery schedule for specific carriers, etc.

It's failing?

I'll be the first to criticize Microsoft because of the way this update has been handled. But WP is failing? WTF?

With that sensationalistic title I can't be bothered reading the rest of the editorial.

Giving something the tag [editiorial] doesn't mean that any old junk can be written. A good 'editorial' will pull together the good as well as the bad to construct an article which has balance and merit.

max_ireland said,
Giving something the tag [editiorial] doesn't mean that any old junk can be written. A good 'editorial' will pull together the good as well as the bad to construct an article which has balance and merit.

^ This. This editor (which I rarely see his articles/editorials/whatever, or is it me?) seems biased into attacking MS in any angle.

So because one update was delayed a month or two it means the entire platform is doomed to fail? Obviously it's bad for PR and might have cost them some sales in the short term, but I don't think this alone will decide the fate of the entire WP7 ecosystem. They obviously have big plans for Windows Phone, and I don't think one will be able to make a call either way for another year or two...

"Microsoft entered the market when Google and Apple already had entrenched user bases and established carrier agreements and sales figures."

Change the names around, and one realizes this is a poor way to justify calling MS, "late" to anything.

Wow what a terrible article.

Also your entirely biased view of the Xbox 360 was pathetic, to say that the only reason the console was successful is because it was first out shows you know absolutely nothing about the subject and shouldn't be writing on it.

Why do I read these crappy articles on every blog?
Engadget editors write ****ty articles and full of editors opinions
BGR is the same
JKontheRun the same cut as the two above.
Arstechnica is full of haters and ifanboys.
CNET is full of closed minded hippies and ifanboys like Bryan Tong
WMPoweruser is a total joke. Editor can't write, doesn't use the spell checker and the articles are just insane.

Anandtech is barely holding there. WPCentral is a good blog. Paul Turrot @ Windows Phone Secrets is a good read and the man speak the truth. Pocketnow is quite good besides the terrible job being done by the Mr. Rivera.

Ricardo Dawkins said,
Why do I read these crappy articles on every blog?
Engadget editors write ****ty articles and full of editors opinions
BGR is the same
JKontheRun the same cut as the two above.
Arstechnica is full of haters and ifanboys.
CNET is full of closed minded hippies and ifanboys like Bryan Tong
WMPoweruser is a total joke. Editor can't write, doesn't use the spell checker and the articles are just insane.

Anandtech is barely holding there. WPCentral is a good blog. Paul Turrot @ Windows Phone Secrets is a good read and the man speak the truth. Pocketnow is quite good besides the terrible job being done by the Mr. Rivera.

because you believe WP7 is the best and wpcentral is of cos full of Microsoft fans. Just heard the website name will know. Its like you like Sony and you go to Sony's forums and believe its all true and its not bias.

Ricardo Dawkins said,
Why do I read these crappy articles on every blog?
Engadget editors write ****ty articles and full of editors opinions
BGR is the same
JKontheRun the same cut as the two above.
Arstechnica is full of haters and ifanboys.
CNET is full of closed minded hippies and ifanboys like Bryan Tong
WMPoweruser is a total joke. Editor can't write, doesn't use the spell checker and the articles are just insane.

Anandtech is barely holding there. WPCentral is a good blog. Paul Turrot @ Windows Phone Secrets is a good read and the man speak the truth. Pocketnow is quite good besides the terrible job being done by the Mr. Rivera.

You are forgetting John Dvorak on PC Mag. Although you can say his articles are amusing...

tanjiajun_34 said,
because you believe WP7 is the best and wpcentral is of cos full of Microsoft fans. Just heard the website name will know. Its like you like Sony and you go to Sony's forums and believe its all true and its not bias.

I wouldn't quite say Ricardo likes WP7, he does his fair share or Zune & Microsoft trolling, has done for a few years after becoming dissillusioned with the Zune.

That said, I'm not a big fan of these opinion pieces either.

tanjiajun_34 said,
because you believe WP7 is the best and wpcentral is of cos full of Microsoft fans. Just heard the website name will know. Its like you like Sony and you go to Sony's forums and believe its all true and its not bias.

I'm using an unlocked Android based Samsung Galaxy S in Central America. All I'm saying is these blogs with their sorry opinionated and wrongly researched articles are a joke much of the time.
So, what is your point?

Andrew Lyle said,
Do you read any blogs that you like?

Yes. I've been reading Reason: Hit & Run (http://reason.com/hitandrun) for years and the quality never disappoints. The even cover tech stories on a regular basis - but more from a philosophical or policy perspective. You're more likely to see a thoughtful write-up about DRM or Net-neutrality than something as trivial as the "NoDo" update. They also have an awesome vlog called http://Reason.tv

http://TechCentralStation.com has been pretty good in the past, but haven't seen it in a while.

Stumbled on http://armsandthelaw.com a few years ago and it's really improved my understanding of the legal basis behind many of the laws in western society. For example, I learned about the origins of tort law (the law used to sue someone if their cow tramples your wife, etc.).

Then of course there's http://EconTalk.org for interesting interviews on economic issues. Love how they cross-reference to related discussions - kind of like "Would you like to know more?" in Starship Troopers!

If the editors of NeoWin payed attention to the quality of content on the blogs mentioned above, they should be honored to be in my feedlist. That's probably why I skim it. It's tech info-tainment. Doesn't take much thought, so it's a nice diversion or break from those above. Still, spend a few minutes skimming the blogs mentioned above and I'd be amazed if nothing catches your eye.

Ricardo Dawkins said,
Why do I read these crappy articles on every blog?
Engadget editors write ****ty articles and full of editors opinions
BGR is the same
JKontheRun the same cut as the two above.
Arstechnica is full of haters and ifanboys.
CNET is full of closed minded hippies and ifanboys like Bryan Tong
WMPoweruser is a total joke. Editor can't write, doesn't use the spell checker and the articles are just insane.

Anandtech is barely holding there. WPCentral is a good blog. Paul Turrot @ Windows Phone Secrets is a good read and the man speak the truth. Pocketnow is quite good besides the terrible job being done by the Mr. Rivera.

I feel the same way you do (especially wmpoweruser, wtf). I guess I was right there's demand for a good Windoes Phone blog. Guess I'm gonna start adding articles to the one I created, and I'll invite you to take a look.

Ricardo Dawkins said,
Why do I read these crappy articles on every blog?

Cuz WP7 is Crappy, doesn't matter the Blog you're in

(BTW i'm an ifanboy! and i'm OK with Android)

Ricardo Dawkins said,
Why do I read these crappy articles on every blog?
Engadget editors write ****ty articles and full of editors opinions
BGR is the same
JKontheRun the same cut as the two above.
Arstechnica is full of haters and ifanboys.
CNET is full of closed minded hippies and ifanboys like Bryan Tong
WMPoweruser is a total joke. Editor can't write, doesn't use the spell checker and the articles are just insane.

Anandtech is barely holding there. WPCentral is a good blog. Paul Turrot @ Windows Phone Secrets is a good read and the man speak the truth. Pocketnow is quite good besides the terrible job being done by the Mr. Rivera.

Or maybe you're just the one who is a fanboy and all those other perfectly reputable sites are right. Ever think about that? Eh?

Ricardo Dawkins said,
I'm using an unlocked Android based Samsung Galaxy S in Central America. All I'm saying is these blogs with their sorry opinionated and wrongly researched articles are a joke much of the time.
So, what is your point?

And if you hate them so much why don't you make your own website with your own opinions? it seems that you are all very happy to be a player-hater but when it comes to actually stepping up to the plate and doing something yourself you scuttle away looking for a place to hide.

Good article.

I may still get a WP7 phone next year or so. I'm just going to wait it out for a bit longer. See how things are next year.

Beastage said,
Rofl there are top notch android devices still stuck on 1.6 and 2.1! delay? hardly.
I don't believe any top notch phone on 1.6? And also most apps can run on 2.1 at well I don't find it much of a problem.

Beastage said,
Rofl there are top notch android devices still stuck on 1.6 and 2.1! delay? hardly.

And you think in 3/4 years your Windows Mobile 7 phone will get the latest updates on old hardware? Good luck with that.

Flawed said,

And you think in 3/4 years your Windows Mobile 7 phone will get the latest updates on old hardware? Good luck with that.

Let's see, how long does for example Apple manage to update their outdated hardware?

Flawed said,

And you think in 3/4 years your Windows Mobile 7 phone will get the latest updates on old hardware? Good luck with that.

No problem if there are no updates in 3-4 years, but there are Android-devices that don't even get an update in the first year!

Its way too early to say they're failing. They're up on hard times, sure, but not close to failing. Microsoft invests in new hardware/software technologies for the long run. The Xbox franchise is the perfect example of that. Microsoft released the original Xbox despite the general public telling them it would be a miserable flop. They knew it wouldn't be an immediate smash hit, and it only sold 20 million units in its lifetime, but they used that small window into the gaming market to launch the 360 and five years later, they still lead the PS3 in total sales, and lead all consoles in attach rate, as well as having arguably the best online service, even if it does cost money. As you said, its one of their greatest success stories and it took them years to get there, not months.

You say they don't have time, but I (and I bet MS) would beg to differ. Give it a couple years, I guarantee they make solid inroads into the phone market. They got an excellent software platform backed by excellent hardware and a long term investment. WP7 will see itself elevated much like Xbox.

I don't understand these folk who talk about how "late" WP7 is. How shortsighted can you be? Really? Even if everyone around you did already have a smartphone, that in no way means they're stuck with current options for life. It's a silly thing to say, and I lose respect for any tech writer that says it.

Late for what?

burnblue said,
I don't understand these folk who talk about how "late" WP7 is. How shortsighted can you be? Really? Even if everyone around you did already have a smartphone, that in no way means they're stuck with current options for life. It's a silly thing to say, and I lose respect for any tech writer that says it.

Late for what?


+1

Total crap.
We've just brought 80 HTC Trophy handsets for business use. Whilst I used to be a Nokia man for the best part of 7 years, I moved to a HTC Desire about 12 months ago - which is epic - however I will be moving to a Windows Phone 7 handset when I can upgrade.

Having an update delayed by a couple of months is hardly critical, and it's not going to impact the VAST majority of consumers. From memory Microsoft said "early 2011" and I'd still say that Q1 fit's with that.

Compare this with Android's updating (e.g. you may get one or two updates - possibly. If you're using the right hardware. And the operator approves it. Maybe. At some point.)
Apple's own update schedule is yearly for anything that puts new features in - for bug fixes it's a case of "whenever".

Think you've massively over-estimated the impact of a software update has!

stevehoot said,

Think you've massively over-estimated the impact of a software update has!


No kidding.
It's not like the phones are bricks without the update. Jesus.

ahhell said,

No kidding.
It's not like the phones are bricks without the update. Jesus.
Some of them end up as bricks with the update, though (I know, I know, they fixed that issue)

stevehoot said,

Compare this with Android's updating (e.g. you may get one or two updates - possibly. If you're using the right hardware.

Hold on. You think you'll get updates with all new features forever? New hardware comes along very quickly in the mobile market and I doubt you'll get all the latest and greatest on old hardware. That's just the way it goes. Besides. most people upgrade their phones every 2-3 years., so it's irrelevant. At least Android doesn't make promises it can't keep like Microsoft is doing with Windows Mobile 7. No fragmentation? Give me a break.

stevehoot said,
Total crap.
We've just brought 80 HTC Trophy handsets for business use. Whilst I used to be a Nokia man for the best part of 7 years, I moved to a HTC Desire about 12 months ago - which is epic - however I will be moving to a Windows Phone 7 handset when I can upgrade.

Having an update delayed by a couple of months is hardly critical, and it's not going to impact the VAST majority of consumers. From memory Microsoft said "early 2011" and I'd still say that Q1 fit's with that.

Compare this with Android's updating (e.g. you may get one or two updates - possibly. If you're using the right hardware. And the operator approves it. Maybe. At some point.)
Apple's own update schedule is yearly for anything that puts new features in - for bug fixes it's a case of "whenever".

Think you've massively over-estimated the impact of a software update has!

Thank you for being the lone sane voice in a sea of half-baked anti-Windows Phone 7 whiners - it truly is amazing when I hear people complain about Windows Phone 7 and yet ignore how handset vendors leave you high and dry after buying a Android phone. Look at the number of handset vendors who say, "na, no update for you sucker - buy a new phone if you want that security hole fixed ROFLCOPTER!"

If the congress in the US ever wanted to do something useful it should be to tie the carriers back and allow Microsoft and others to provide updates directly to the phone and the carrier have absolutely no say what so ever whether the user can or can't do it.

Flawed said,

At least Android doesn't make promises it can't keep like Microsoft is doing with Windows Mobile 7.

You mean Windows Phone 7, right? xD

Interesting read. I had been waiting for a good WP7 device on VZW, but after reading one too many articles such as this....I went with the Thunderbolt. I hope they can turn it around, kinda odd they are coming off like a underdog now days.

SH3K0 said,
I said this when it was released and say this now, Windows Mobile 7 is an epic fail.

Especially when Windows Mobile 7 doesn't exist. It fails epically at existence.

SH3K0 said,
I said this when it was released and say this now, Windows Mobile 7 is an epic fail.

You jumped the gun then, and you're doing it now as well.

SH3K0 said,
I said this when it was released and say this now, Windows Mobile 7 is an epic fail.

Windows Mobile 7 is indeed an epic fail seeing as I've never heard of it

what said,
Windows what?

The creator of this article has failed to mention something. The xbox got a head start but the ps3 did catch up.

The WP7 is late and microsoft know that, it has got some bad PR like what the first ps3 had. The question is, can WP7 catch up in 2-3 years time ? So far the base is the best product on the market, it needs refinements just like the ps3.

Nokia could be WP7's PS3 slim or Androids HTC and Samsung. Also I've yet to see the massive advertising budget, I've hardly seen any adverts for it and I think they would rather wait until after the Mango update to advertise to the general public.

Alansonit said,

Especially when Windows Mobile 7 doesn't exist. It fails epically at existence.


Windows Mobile/Phone is the same. I was referring to the OS.

Gaffney said,

The creator of this article has failed to mention something. The xbox got a head start but the ps3 did catch up.

The WP7 is late and microsoft know that, it has got some bad PR like what the first ps3 had. The question is, can WP7 catch up in 2-3 years time ? So far the base is the best product on the market, it needs refinements just like the ps3.

Nokia could be WP7's PS3 slim or Androids HTC and Samsung. Also I've yet to see the massive advertising budget, I've hardly seen any adverts for it and I think they would rather wait until after the Mango update to advertise to the general public.


Before WP7 was actually released there was tons of hype. Steve Ballmer went on a couple national talk shows to talk about it as well.

SH3K0 said,

Windows Mobile/Phone is the same. I was referring to the OS.

I know it's splitting hairs, but they are not the same. Windows Mobile 7 does not exist. It is called Windows Phone 7. They are not synonymous.

Xenosion said,

I know it's splitting hairs, but they are not the same. Windows Mobile 7 does not exist. It is called Windows Phone 7. They are not synonymous.

Okay sure but it's still a fail

Xenosion said,

Before WP7 was actually released there was tons of hype. Steve Ballmer went on a couple national talk shows to talk about it as well.

Didn't Microsoft spend something ridiculous on the advertisement? Something like half a billion dollars, what a waste!

Xenosion said,

Before WP7 was actually released there was tons of hype. Steve Ballmer went on a couple national talk shows to talk about it as well.

Before WP7 was released Ballmer said iPhone is a fail and iPad is a joke. Now, the joke is on him.

SH3K0 said,

Windows Mobile/Phone is the same. I was referring to the OS.

You can call it whatever you want but when you're trying to point out a problem, specially online, it's better for you to show "knowledge" by saying the correct terms/product names etc. Otherwise, you can expect the same reactions like those to your first comment. By the way, Windows Mobile and Windows Phone 7 are really not the same whatsoever. The structure of those two platforms have nothing to be compared of.

SH3K0 said,

Windows Mobile/Phone is the same. I was referring to the OS.

You said Windows Mobile 7. AFAIK, that does not exist.

SH3K0 said,
I said this when it was released and say this now, Windows Mobile 7 is an epic fail.

you failed at calling it a fail

SH3K0 said,

Okay sure but it's still a fail

I hate being a grammar nazi,but technically speaking, 'fail' is a verb, the noun of which is a 'failure.' Just saying...:\

Xenosion said,

I know it's splitting hairs, but they are not the same. Windows Mobile 7 does not exist. It is called Windows Phone 7. They are not synonymous.

Neither does Windows Mobile 6.5 exist now. They are now both called Windows Phone 6.5 and Windows Phone 7. So, in essence, WM7 technically is correct, now that MS is associating WinMo with WP.

Alansonit said,

Especially when Windows Mobile 7 doesn't exist. It fails epically at existence.


Well it's based on Windows CE, the same platform as Windows Mobile 6.5, so it's basically Windows Mobile 7.

Xenosion said,

I know it's splitting hairs, but they are not the same. Windows Mobile 7 does not exist. It is called Windows Phone 7. They are not synonymous.

It's just semantics really. It was rebranded. The fact is both Mobile 6.5 and Phone/Mobile 7 share a common codebase - Windows CE. Mobile 7 might have a new coat of paint (sliverlight), but it's still the same old kernel underneath.

Flawed said,
Well it's based on Windows CE

So is Windows Embedded Compact. Are you gonna call that one WM Compact next?

Gaffney said,

The creator of this article has failed to mention something. The xbox got a head start but the ps3 did catch up.

The WP7 is late and microsoft know that, it has got some bad PR like what the first ps3 had. The question is, can WP7 catch up in 2-3 years time ? So far the base is the best product on the market, it needs refinements just like the ps3.

Nokia could be WP7's PS3 slim or Androids HTC and Samsung. Also I've yet to see the massive advertising budget, I've hardly seen any adverts for it and I think they would rather wait until after the Mango update to advertise to the general public.


The PS3 was able to catch up because it had a huge fan base.

It is basically Windows Mobile 7.0. Just look at the filesystem and you will see it has the same DLLs and apps as WinMo. A fancy new GUI, new security policy (no native code), and some minor kernel backports from the latest WinCE kernel hardly qualify as being a new platform.

alexalex said,

Before WP7 was released Ballmer said iPhone is a fail and iPad is a joke. Now, the joke is on him.

Depends on how you define what he is referring to...

If he is referring to the consumer market sales, then ya, he was wrong.
If he is referring to the technology, features, then ya, he is spot on.

Apple can only create the iPad buzz and take advantage of screen costs and battery technology hitting at the perfect time for them once, the only lasting feature is their Apps and their Store.

zivan56 said,
It is basically Windows Mobile 7.0. Just look at the filesystem and you will see it has the same DLLs and apps as WinMo. A fancy new GUI, new security policy (no native code), and some minor kernel backports from the latest WinCE kernel hardly qualify as being a new platform.

On and on and on...

There is NO SUCH THING AS Windows Mobile 7. I don't care that the original post didn't type WP7 or Windows Phone 7, but trying to justify this crap out is getting insane.

There is only...
WinCE 1.x-7.x

There are products built on WinCE that have various names, like PocketPC, Windows Mobile, Sync, etc. They have the same base OS kernel and some use shared upper layer API sets that derive from teh WinCE base set.

WP7 base OS s comprised of WinCE 6.x and WinCE 7.0 RC code. WP7 will fully be moved to WinCE 7.0 RTM code, if it hasn't already.

There has been Windows Mobile development covering WinCE for years, but there is not a Windows Mobile 7.0 product.

This is just confusing people, so stop trying to create a reality that makes 'Windows Mobile 7.0' real.