Gartner: Microsoft could be irrelevant in 4 years

Don't we all just love analysts? In a new forecast that has been published by Gartner today, the research firm warns that if Microsoft fails to capture key tablet and smartphone markets over the next few years, the company could basically become irrelevant. Apparently a huge, disruptive shift is on the way that will see the majority of people use tablets as their main computing device and that will cause Microsoft's OS share - both Windows and Windows Phone - to fall to around the same as Apple's iOS share by 2017.

Carolina Milanesi, the analyst behind this research, believes that Android will get sales volumes "that are three times those of Windows" in the future, as Microsoft fails to successfully capture the interests of emerging markets. Milanesi believes that people who don't own PCs currently will look to a tablet for their first computer, and "Android or iOS are the two that they're looking at". This will cause developers to focus their efforts on the platform with the largest user base, which apparently won't be Windows.

Gartner predicts that by 2017, the shipments of Android devices will vastly outnumber any other operating system on the market, while by just 2014 we'll see Android on more than a billion devices. BlackBerry will continue to slide in overall shipments to end up well behind Windows Phone, and in 2015 tablets will outsell more traditional PCs such as notebooks and desktops. "Winning in the tablet and phone space is critical for [Microsoft] to remain relevant in this shift", says Milanesi.

Of course this is simply an analyst's prediction of the future and quite often they turn out to be wrong. Microsoft is working hard with Windows Blue to improve the experience they introduced with Windows 8 and the overall unification of Microsoft services could serve them well in the future. Whether they'll slip so far behind Android remains to be seen.

Source: The Guardian

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If Microsoft's recent attitude to their huge installed PC base, by unleashing Windows-8, is any indication, you are correct. Windows-7 can carry Microsoft only so far. Alienating one's customer base is not the way to stay in business for long.

TechieXP1969 said,
To Gartner...so the 1.3Billion know users of Windows are all of a sudden are going to drop Windows to do what?

They are going to stop buying Windows and look at alternative

Sonne said,

They are going to stop buying Windows and look at alternative

What alternative? Linux is free and it can't even compete against Windows. Mac's cost to much and enterprises aren't going to pay $1700 for a MacBook or $3000 for a Mac Pro for more than a few employees.

Gartner is high. Are you?

TechieXP1969 said,
What alternative? Linux is free and it can't even compete against Windows. Mac's cost to much and enterprises aren't going to pay $1700 for a MacBook or $3000 for a Mac Pro for more than a few employees.

Gartner is high. Are you?

I think he has a point (but not the one he's thinking of and you're talking about). The competition isn't desktop - it's mobile. MS see that and are reacting - desktop isn't going anywhere but it's use has diminished with the rise of mobile devices - first with smartphone and now with tablet. Hybrids (laptop convertibles) blur the line further - I wouldn't bother buying another laptop having used a tablet with a keyboard dock now for example (Active Pro).

Any company looks to the next growth market - MS are behind (like it or not) and despite having good platforms at last still have a lot to do. Gartner are full of crap no doubt, but it's pretty obvious that computing is evolving.

All I see in the comments here are fanboys defending their icon. The REALITY is that consumers are REJECTING Windows 8, Windows Phone, and most especially Windows RT! The REALITY is that in the consumer PC market, MS is losing market share to iOS and Android. The REALITY is that Windows Phone is STILL under 5% global market share. The REALITY is that Microsoft has NEVER released a successful consumer product other than the Xbox 360 (and that only on the 2nd attempt), and their past is littered with the wreckage of their failures...Zune, Kin, Windows Mobile, WebTV, UltimateTV (does ANYONE remember this?), Windows Phone 7 (ouch!), the list goes on and on.

Nothing has shown in the past several years that ANYONE in Microsoft's executive team has ANY idea what the customer wants...and when the negative feedback comes in, it gets thrown away and they push their horrible ideas even HARDER!

Microsoft is well on the way to being irrelevant. The landscape has changed. Computing used to be confined to a desk....and x86 architecture. Now it's mobile, it's in your phone, your tablet, your TV, your ebook reader...and it's increasingly OPEN SOURCE, and easier every day to develop for. Consumers don't care what hardware or OS is on a device...they just care how easy it is to use, and they care about what software they can run. Microsoft is failing on both sides here, with a confusing UI, hidden menus ("Charms") and a decidedly poor selection of available apps. (oooh, you have Temple Run...2 years after everyone else, and none of the newer titles in the series...etc)

They have decided to ape Apple, walling off their ecosystem, locking down their hardware, and limiting customer choice. They are gouging developers, just like Apple, for 20-30% of the gross of all app sales. They are depreciating the desktop and "legacy" (open) Windows software. And they are taking total control over what apps they allow to run on Windows.

It all adds up to a failure of EPIC proportions. It will take another couple of years for the cement to dry around their ankles, but make no mistake, Microsoft WILL be irrelevant to everyday users...and it is only a matter of time before they lose the corporate customers as well. Inertia will only take you so far.

Delmont said,
Off your meds today?

How many people have Windows CE / Phone 6 and 6.5 today, close to zero? it is 4 years after it is released?

How many people have iPhone 1? or IE 7?

use your brain for once and think!

another thing:
Do you know how simple it is to developer a Business Web App using Chrome/Any middleware = Extremely simple

Do you know how much will a company save by using ChromeBox and Web Apps? = A lot! in fact, most of the internal applications today we build for businesses are web based, how long you think before the infrastructure department at a company decide to deploy a simpler OS?

you may say: oh no, I don't like to use the new OS, I want Windows, and they may say: yeh, you can go and find another job as well.

Businesses wants things simpler and cheaper, and all what Microsoft do today is milk them with the same old product, it is 20 years after they introduced networking in Windows and it is still very expensive for businesses to save documents

Windows Server Licenses
SQL Server Licenses
SharePoint Licenses
Office Licenses

and then the user can simply save a document inside a SharePoint library, that it will go to a database, which will go to NTFS which will go to the HD, damn stupid!

how long before business get upset and switch to Google Drive?

Edited by john.smith_2084, Apr 4 2013, 11:04pm :

John Nemesh said,
The REALITY is that Microsoft has NEVER released a successful consumer product other than the Xbox 360 (and that only on the 2nd attempt), and their past is littered with the wreckage of their failures...Zune, Kin, Windows Mobile, WebTV, UltimateTV (does ANYONE remember this?), Windows Phone 7 (ouch!), the list goes on and on.

And despite all that, MS is doing just fine.

John Nemesh said
All I see in the comments here are fanboys defending their icon. The REALITY is that consumers are REJECTING Windows 8, Windows Phone, and most especially Windows RT! The REALITY is that in the consumer PC market, MS is losing market share to iOS and Android. The REALITY is that Windows Phone is STILL under 5% global market share. The REALITY is that Microsoft has NEVER released a successful consumer product other than the Xbox 360 (and that only on the 2nd attempt), and their past is littered with the wreckage of their failures...Zune, Kin, Windows Mobile, WebTV, UltimateTV (does ANYONE remember this?), Windows Phone 7 (ouch!), the list goes on and on.

Nothing has shown in the past several years that ANYONE in Microsoft's executive team has ANY idea what the customer wants...and when the negative feedback comes in, it gets thrown away and they push their horrible ideas even HARDER!

Microsoft is well on the way to being irrelevant. The landscape has changed. Computing used to be confined to a desk....and x86 architecture. Now it's mobile, it's in your phone, your tablet, your TV, your ebook reader...and it's increasingly OPEN SOURCE, and easier every day to develop for. Consumers don't care what hardware or OS is on a device...they just care how easy it is to use, and they care about what software they can run. Microsoft is failing on both sides here, with a confusing UI, hidden menus ("Charms") and a decidedly poor selection of available apps. (oooh, you have Temple Run...2 years after everyone else, and none of the newer titles in the series...etc)

They have decided to ape Apple, walling off their ecosystem, locking down their hardware, and limiting customer choice. They are gouging developers, just like Apple, for 20-30% of the gross of all app sales. They are depreciating the desktop and "legacy" (open) Windows software. And they are taking total control over what apps they allow to run on Windows.

It all adds up to a failure of EPIC proportions. It will take another couple of years for the cement to dry around their ankles, but make no mistake, Microsoft WILL be irrelevant to everyday users...and it is only a matter of time before they lose the corporate customers as well. Inertia will only take you so far.

Wow... After releasing a comment like that, you shouldn't even be allowed to comment on anything tech. related anymore.. 90% of that (if not all) was wrong..

People like you never cease to amaze me..

John Nemesh said,
All I see in the comments here are fanboys defending their icon. The REALITY is that consumers are REJECTING Windows 8, Windows Phone, and most especially Windows RT! The REALITY is that in the consumer PC market, MS is losing market share to iOS and Android. The REALITY is that Windows Phone is STILL under 5% global market share. The REALITY is that Microsoft has NEVER released a successful consumer product other than the Xbox 360 (and that only on the 2nd attempt), and their past is littered with the wreckage of their failures...Zune, Kin, Windows Mobile, WebTV, UltimateTV (does ANYONE remember this?), Windows Phone 7 (ouch!), the list goes on and on.

Nothing has shown in the past several years that ANYONE in Microsoft's executive team has ANY idea what the customer wants...and when the negative feedback comes in, it gets thrown away and they push their horrible ideas even HARDER!

Microsoft is well on the way to being irrelevant. The landscape has changed. Computing used to be confined to a desk....and x86 architecture. Now it's mobile, it's in your phone, your tablet, your TV, your ebook reader...and it's increasingly OPEN SOURCE, and easier every day to develop for. Consumers don't care what hardware or OS is on a device...they just care how easy it is to use, and they care about what software they can run. Microsoft is failing on both sides here, with a confusing UI, hidden menus ("Charms") and a decidedly poor selection of available apps. (oooh, you have Temple Run...2 years after everyone else, and none of the newer titles in the series...etc)

They have decided to ape Apple, walling off their ecosystem, locking down their hardware, and limiting customer choice. They are gouging developers, just like Apple, for 20-30% of the gross of all app sales. They are depreciating the desktop and "legacy" (open) Windows software. And they are taking total control over what apps they allow to run on Windows.

It all adds up to a failure of EPIC proportions. It will take another couple of years for the cement to dry around their ankles, but make no mistake, Microsoft WILL be irrelevant to everyday users...and it is only a matter of time before they lose the corporate customers as well. Inertia will only take you so far.

Windows Mobile was a failure? Microsoft had the enterprise lock on Windows Mobile for a decade. Sure they let it slide out their grip by resting on their laurels, just like RIM did and just like Apple is doing.

Your point is mute. Vista wasn't successful simply because the OEM's didn't properly support it with hardware. They wanted to force everyone to buy new apps and hardware when they didn't need too. Windows 8 isn't a failure. If you don't have a touch capable PC, no one is going to just run out an buy one just to run Windows 8. But plenty of new PC's are selling. However, if you just bought a Windows 7 PC in the past few years, you don't need a new PC, nor do you need Windows 8.

Android has 70% of the mobile market. Apple with iOS has 28% of the mobile market. There isn't much room for growth. In order for Windows Phone to manage, it has to take market from Android or iOS. It has in some places. Where MS needs the biggest success is in the USA. But the USA isn't the whole world. We only have 350M people. There are way more people in Europe/Asia and China. A market is a market even if it isn't your home market. Growth is growth no matter where. Every company has had failures. Unlike some, Microsoft is big enough to bounce back.

Kin was small. It failed..so what. How many failed products has Apple had? The Mac is still a failure and Apple keeps selling the garbage bec they have a loyal group of crazed lunatics. Apple is for the next fad, while MS is building a mainstay product. You cant win all the time. If no one wants Windows 8 then so what. If no one wants Windows Phone than so what. Use what works.

But every time Microsoft runs into a problem, all of a sudden you all start crying that Microsoft is going to die. You all been saying that since Windows ME failed. When you own 90% of a market, people cant drop you likea rock.

What alternative is their to Windows in business? NOTHING. Sure Windows Phone can be replaced and so can Kin and all that garbage. But that isn't the end of the company.

john smith, wow, what an ignorant, rude, post. Gee, I didn't know you were everyone's boss/dictator to post like that.

Apparently their graph must be lumping in phones as an "operating system"... what a joke. Can they truly be that stupid? No one does work on a phone, or tablet. They never will.

jd100 said,
Apparently their graph must be lumping in phones as an "operating system"... what a joke. Can they truly be that stupid? No one does work on a phone, or tablet. They never will.

So the Surface Pro is just a gimmick then? Yes, people DO work on phones and tablets...and when you have the same OS (Windows 8 or Linux) on the phone and on the tablet and on the PC, you will use all 3 for work. your comment is wrong on many levels.

but people that work wont buy a new pc, or anything because what they have works.

Why replace it with something that its complicated (windows 8) for desktop.....

The lack of focus and the attempt to unify everything its wrong and time itself its proving it.

Its important for microsoft to attract tablet and mobile market but stop messing with the desktop customers.

I should also add that I have been perfectly happy with Windows 8. Although its not worth its current selling price. It should be priced what it was when it first came out, which was $15 to $40... not what its selling for now.

Another totally clueless idiot. It really makes you wonder how these guys actually got their jobs.

It wasn't that long ago when all these morons kept saying how the notebook would replace the desktop. It hasn't happend and never will, and it will never ever happen with a tablet. You can mark my words on it. It has to do with the size just too small to doing on them except browse the web or play some lame game.

More BS hyperbole

If MS completely dies TODAY it would take ten years for every bit of their software to be eradicated from world businesses. That is how intertwined MS is with almost every company in the world.

If your software is being used on that type of world scale their is no way you will be irrelevant in 4 years.

Back in the Windows 95 times, if Microsoft decided to remove the program manager and replace it with the start button, and you don't like it, well too bad, there are no other alternatives.

Today in Windows 8, if Microsoft decided to uglifiy it, remove that start button and replace it with a big screen, and mess everything else around, and remove the VS.NET colors, and the Office colors, well …. Too bad, if you don't like it, then there is no other option.

Oh, wait a second, there is the old Windows 7, the old Office 2007 and 2010 (which do all what Office 2013 does) there is the old VS.NET 2010 and much more.

Oh no, there is MAC! There is also Chrome OS and Google Drive! There is Android, iPhone, BlackBery 10, there are very powerful online and offline IDEs some of them less ugly that VS.NET 2013

Servers, there are tons of servers that do a lot, Ubuntu, Linux, and so much more.

Someone at Microsoft just can't get used to the idea that there is a competition out there, it is no 1995 :-)

I significantly hope not. Mainly based on the fact that Microsoft have somehow managed to come out of all the Operating System wars of late being the only one I trust to get things RIGHT anymore, even if they do take their sweet time about it.

I wonder how things would be if:
Windows phone had 10-20 different models on every carrier
If apple had at launch, an iPhone on every carrier
If either of those were true now.
When an average consumer goes into att there looking mostly at price and selection which android cover very well. Hence why apple is going to mobile now and why they are going to have to release different models at different price points.

Some of this is good for innovation, I say this as I type this on my Samsung Ativ 700t. I'm actually holding a i5 1080p full pc in my hands! I could go on about the ecs and how fast it is but the main point is I'm holding a full pc in my hands!

I doubt they'll become irrelevant anytime soon, even in the consumer market. But I certainly wouldn't be surprised to see their relative importance further diminished, as we have seen these past few years:

http://cdn-static.zdnet.com/i/...sh=ZQxmZmDjAz&upscale=1

And say what you will, but the operating system market in the 20-year-period beginning in 1990 looks anything but healthy to me, so, while I don't want to see Microsoft become irrelevant, I certainly welcome these recent developments from a consumer's point of view

Dot Matrix said,
I know what'll stop that! Microsoft giving us back the Start Menu.

No need. Thankfully the geniuses at Microsoft have figured out a fullscreen UI that works just as well on a touch-operated 10" tablet as it does on a mouse&kb-operated desktop system with a 30" monitor! Pretty awesome, innit?

Dot Matrix said,
I know what'll stop that! Microsoft giving us back the Start Menu. Because that's what every tablet user wants!

/s

Tablet users should just adapt, the start menu is the future of computing.

I don't think irrelevant as in not having a special presence, but I do believe in irrelevancy when it comes to not actually needing to use any MS products for any tasks in particular. We've already went a long way towards that. If you haven't noticed, you really haven't paid attention, as many of the latest apps aren't even released for Microsoft products anymore, and certainly not first. The corporate culture has also been affected and the BYOD idea from ~2009 is largely a result of this.

Edited by Northgrove, Apr 4 2013, 2:05pm :

Consumers no longer want MS....I don't think they ever did, they just never had choice before recently. MS monopoly is crumbling fast now, their last stand will be enterprise but to consumers they are done

Sonne said,
Consumers no longer want MS....I don't think they ever did, they just never had choice before recently. MS monopoly is crumbling fast now, their last stand will be enterprise but to consumers they are done

Crumbling where, smartphones? tablets?
Still a tiny market compared to the cooperate market MS gets most of its money from.
And just wait until cooperations start upgrading their systems, the next tablets wont be POS devices like an iPad, which is only used in business environments because people know it and don't really have a choice.
WP is growing steadily, in the tablet market they are expanding as well.
They created a new multi-billion dollar division with the surface in just half a year.

Google started (again) copying Microsoft's Modern style. I'll somehow wont be surprised if Apple will follow either.

Microsoft must be doing something good. Their profits have been increasing the last couple of years and Microsoft is a long term planner. They don't just think about tomorrow's profits, they think about next years, and in a decade.

They always done things like this that twisted a whole bunch of you guys' panties. Get over it people.

Sonne said,
Consumers no longer want MS....I don't think they ever did, they just never had choice before recently. MS monopoly is crumbling fast now, their last stand will be enterprise but to consumers they are done

Crumbling where, smartphones? tablets?
Still a tiny market compared to the cooperate market MS gets most of its money from.
And just wait until cooperations start upgrading their systems, the next tablets wont be POS devices like an iPad, which is only used in business environments because people know it and don't really have a choice.
WP is growing steadily, in the tablet market they are expanding as well.
They created a new multi-billion dollar division with the surface in just half a year.

Google started (again) copying Microsoft's Modern style. I'll somehow wont be surprised if Apple will follow either.

Microsoft must be doing something good. Their profits have been increasing the last couple of years and Microsoft is a long term planner. They don't just think about tomorrow's profits, they think about next years, and in a decade.

They always done things like this that twisted a whole bunch of you guys' panties. Get over it people.

Guess which is the most desirable 2012 Smartphone? Nokia 920! Ops, has WP8 on it and consumers like it! Although it has supply problems.

VHMP01 said,
Guess which is the most desirable 2012 Smartphone? Nokia 920! Ops, has WP8 on it and consumers like it! Although it has supply problems.

How many 920's have been sold, a few hundred thousand? Compared to 30 million Galaxy III's and several million iphones? Most desirable, lol

Tablets and Phones will be irrelevent in the sense that they will hit the ceiling in capabilities and just be an average product like a toaster. Microsoft will never be irrelevent as long as companies supply their employees with computers to work on. Doubt any time soon that we will all be staring at tablets for christ sake. Think of the RSI!!

They are already irrelevant in the consumer space, but enterprise probably more than 4 years if ever.

spudtrooper said,
Xbox 360 slaps you upside the head

The straw to clutch at... The problem there is that's an isolated use case. You're hardly bringing an Xbox 360 to the enterprise, or with you for entertainment on a plane. The more niched use it has (entertainment on a TV), the easier it is to also replace for a competitor, which ties in well with the subject of this thread.

Apple only needs to announce an App Store for the Apple TV that syncs with your existing purchases via iCloud + a stupid game controller and it would send shockwaves through that industry.

Edited by Northgrove, Apr 4 2013, 2:36pm :

Northgrove said,

The straw to clutch at... The problem there is that's an isolated use case. You're hardly bringing an Xbox 360 to the enterprise, or with you for entertainment on a plane. The more niched use it has (entertainment on a TV), the easier it is to also replace for a competitor, which ties in well with the subject of this thread.

Apple only needs to announce an App Store for the Apple TV that syncs with your existing purchases via iCloud + a stupid game controller and it would send shockwaves through that industry.


What are you mumbling about, I've already seen companies/cooperations use 360's with Kinect for their presentations. They seem to enjoy to control a slideshow or something with just their hands and no stupid remote control, a stick or anything.

Northgrove said,
The more niched use it has (entertainment on a TV), the easier it is to also replace for a competitor, which ties in well with the subject of this thread.

Actually MS has done a very good job with binding it's customers to the Xbox-brand and they'll continue offering more than just games (which are btw on another level than the 99Cent offerings for mobile devices). It's an important puzzle piece which works well for them so just dismissing it as isolated is unjustified but I guess it would hurt to outright admit that MS is doing something right, everything must be downplayed.

Also it's completely insane to speak of them as irrelevant in any space. Some wish they were (what these folks are doing on a MS-centric website is beyond me though) but while W8 isn't a megasuccess there are billions of Windows' (a large percentage being the still fresh 7) out there which get used every day by consumers.

Edited by dr_crabman, Apr 4 2013, 3:54pm :

Even when all Adroids pay MS licencing fees? That can hurt much! As long as Android is the one growing, MS is not irrelevant.

Microsoft has the next Xbox kicking off, growing Azure, Growing Office 365, Growing Windows Server business, Growing Windows market share and 70 billion dollars in cash reserves.. if this is "preparing to be irrelevant", please, let me in on that action!

Joke of an article. Right cause the billions of $$ enterprise has invested with Microsoft in just 4 short years won't exist. Gesh, can someone pay me to write bs articles like this for a living?

I would be interested to know that do they count the Embedded licenses as well. Considering Windows has crept into this industry as well and millions of deployments have been made using that platform? Replacing all those in four years would be hard enough just like business sector.

Android is OK but I wouldn't want to rely on it. Microsoft just can't get a good mobile platform going....yet. I will continue to wait for something better for mobile besides 8, droid & iOS.

The desktop running Windows 7 is fine for now. Windows 8 is OK as well so long as you use the ex7 for Win 8. I do miss Aero Glass though.

I agree that the future, in terms of numbers at least, is small consumer devices but I don't quite understand how that anyone that doesn't occupy the #1 spot would be deemed irrelevant.

If Android and iOS had a really good Office alternative, then it could be true. Without this, Android devices won't be that popular in the business market (excluding phones). As long as the Slate has Office on it, businesses/people will buy it - I don't see sales coming to a standstill anytime soon. I think the latter may actually happen with Apple first in the years to come if they don't keep up their innovation.

One of the main reasons why Linux is not my primary OS is because I can't get Office to run reliably on it. This is really the only holdup stopping me from making the switch.

Looks like someone was trying to draw a map of the London underground and failed. Then though "i'm sure i can use this random scribbling for something... ahha!"

I remember when I was working for Dell they started selling laptops with Ubuntu on them and tried saying that 2007 was going to be the Year of Linux and that it was going to take over, A few months later they discontinued the Linux option for the computers.

Starting with Windows 8 they've of proved they don't give a rats ass about their customers, desktop or laptop computers or even listening to feedback any more which made up the core of their business and its popularity in the past. So one could say they're already well and truly heading in that direction already.

Imo, the way they're heading they might as well just go join ranks with RIM.

Digitalx said,
Starting with Windows 8 they've of proved they don't give a rats ass about their customers, desktop or laptop computers or even listening to feedback any more which made up the core of their business and its popularity in the past. So one could say they're already well and truly heading in that direction already.

Imo, the way they're heading they might as well just go join ranks with RIM.

In your opinion. Which i wholly disagree with. I run my business on Win 8 machines and the extra speed boost is great for productivity.

Please stop spreading your opinions as fact, they're not.

Or, they're just trying to adapt to a changing landscape where mobile devices are suddenly the primary growth market in computing. That they haven't got it perfect for all use cases now isn't perhaps the prime concern - it's more about what they do with it *next*.

Like it or not MS faces being less relevant in the future if it doesn't change - and that change has to be pretty radical, and therefore it will annoy the heck out of people like you (at least short term). I don't believe (for a moment) they don't listen to feedback (they're pretty transparent about their decision making process) and their core business is shifting. So one could say that doing nothing is far worse..

Mikeffer said,
In your opinion. Which i wholly disagree with. I run my business on Win 8 machines and the extra speed boost is great for productivity.

And you do regularly use the built in metro apps rather than the full desktop versions, like the mail app that doesn't support MAPI therefore you can't right-click and send via email any file or use any of the office "send to" functions?

Mikeffer said,

Please stop spreading your opinions as fact, they're not.

Miss the part where he said IMO at the end of his statement?

Anyway, I agree partly where there are some things they should do for the Desktop users and maybe Blue will do that. Who knows. I dont think MS will be irrelevant tho. They have their hands in to many things.

I have started to notice that It is almost as if Microsoft has purposefully crippled some of their own apps to prevent people from using them with non microsoft services. The Mail app CAN get your gmail but it wont connect to the Calendar and things like that.

littleneutrino said,
I have started to notice that It is almost as if Microsoft has purposefully crippled some of their own apps to prevent people from using them with non microsoft services. The Mail app CAN get your gmail but it wont connect to the Calendar and things like that.

I think that after the latest update the mail app can sync Gmail calendars and contacts as well, I was prompted to re-add the account to allow that.

francescob said,

And you do regularly use the built in metro apps rather than the full desktop versions, like the mail app that doesn't support MAPI therefore you can't right-click and send via email any file or use any of the office "send to" functions?

I think the point is - he doesn't have to. I agree such functionality would be nice (and it'll probably come in time too) but all the choices for mail apps you had before are still there. Heck, even lotus notes works on 8 (really disappointing for me i'm stuck with it at work)

MUI is almost entirely avoidable - you have choices after all - but parts of it are pretty nice and I quite like reading news with the apps even on a desktop for example. In time they'll get better, the APIs will improve and the featureset will probably be comparable but it's early days. Instead of concentrating on something like mail it'd be better to talk about the mish mash of control panel stuff as being a genuine problem because of the inconsistency of it for users. It's this stuff MS need to tackle in 8.1

francescob said,

And you do regularly use the built in metro apps rather than the full desktop versions, like the mail app that doesn't support MAPI therefore you can't right-click and send via email any file or use any of the office "send to" functions?

Comparing features of software that is 20? years old (outlook) with recently published apps... right

dangel said,

I think the point is - he doesn't have to. I agree such functionality would be nice (and it'll probably come in time too) but all the choices for mail apps you had before are still there. Heck, even lotus notes works on 8 (really disappointing for me i'm stuck with it at work)

MUI is almost entirely avoidable - you have choices after all - but parts of it are pretty nice and I quite like reading news with the apps even on a desktop for example. In time they'll get better, the APIs will improve and the featureset will probably be comparable but it's early days. Instead of concentrating on something like mail it'd be better to talk about the mish mash of control panel stuff as being a genuine problem because of the inconsistency of it for users. It's this stuff MS need to tackle in 8.1


He did disagree entirely with the previous post so that implies he's fine with everything that was added in Windows 8, including metro and those unusable included apps. The music app, the mail app, the photo app, the video app, all threw away the decades of work and additions made on the previous desktop applications (WLPG, WMP, WLMail) and are completely unusable. The metro apps were clearly rushed and nowhere ready for release, with so few features maybe they're really targeted at the 7 years olds that Microsoft keeps claiming can easily use Win8.

LegendaryRamzi said,

Comparing features of software that is 20? years old (outlook) with recently published apps... right

Office 2013, Windows 8 Explorer are 20 years old? Yeah, right...

Mikeffer said
In your opinion. Which i wholly disagree with. I run my business on Win 8 machines and the extra speed boost is great for productivity.

What speed boost are you talking about?
Let me guess, your business model consists of constantly rebooting computers? You should try S3 power state, that will really push your productivity through the roof...

francescob said,
..and are completely unusable.

When you start from scratch you have nothing - it will take time to reimplement features. We've already seen that happening with updates to mail - which to the contrary of your view above (hyperbolic to say the least) does actually let you send and receive mail with multiple accounts. I don't think it's particularly brilliant but it's functional which disproves your statement. My point was you can use another mail app - desktop or MUI based - which meets your needs. Personally I didn't like the 'live' mail app at all so it's obsolescence it's irrelevant to me (in all honesty i've stopped using mail clients @ home at all - all my email is web based for the convenience and portability it gives me).
Getting back to your point - yes he might well be fine with everything because he doesn't have the same needs and use cases from his PC as you. Why is that hard to take on board? When in comes to mail he might be happy with being able to read, send and attach files in the MUI app (all of which are functional). I'm not entirely happy with 'everything' in 8 but the rough edges aren't blockers for my work/home life - pragmatically there's nothing slowing me down right now and possibly a few things making life a bit easier. Then again, as I said - i'm not reliant on a MUI mail app at work or home.

francescob said,

Office 2013, Windows 8 Explorer are 20 years old? Yeah, right...

That's a little disingenuous isn't it? He meant it's had years of development work behind it - Office 2013 and 8 Explorer are products of continuous development within the same scope of technology - MUI apps by comparison are entirely new with a fledgling API underneath them.

dangel said,

When you start from scratch you have nothing - it will take time to reimplement features. We've already seen that happening with updates to mail - which to the contrary of your view above (hyperbolic to say the least) does actually let you send and receive mail with multiple accounts.


Did I say the opposite? So did netscape mail and eudora in the previous century.

dangel said,

I don't think it's particularly brilliant but it's functional which disproves your statement. My point was you can use another mail app - desktop or MUI based - which meets your needs. Personally I didn't like the 'live' mail app at all so it's obsolescence it's irrelevant to me (in all honesty i've stopped using mail clients @ home at all - all my email is web based for the convenience and portability it gives me).

Then you're not actually using Windows 8, you're just using the part it inherited from Windows 7 rather than using it how it's supposed to be used.

dangel said,

Getting back to your point - yes he might well be fine with everything because he doesn't have the same needs and use cases from his PC as you. Why is that hard to take on board? When in comes to mail he might be happy with being able to read, send and attach files in the MUI app (all of which are functional). I'm not entirely happy with 'everything' in 8 but the rough edges aren't blockers for my work/home life - pragmatically there's nothing slowing me down right now and possibly a few things making life a bit easier. Then again, as I said - i'm not reliant on a MUI mail app at work or home.

He said that Windows 8 helps his productivity: Office 2013 not able to send mails and being forced use to open the mail app and find the attachment using the horrible Metro file explorer that is nowhere near designed to handle any decent number of files every damn time is nowhere near productive. Stating the opposite just because you use a fraction of the Windows 8 feature or actually don't use any of the new features/apps at all is just living in denial. Nobody said they won't improve those apps in the future but right now and even worse at launch they're a complete undeniable mess.

dangel said,

That's a little disingenuous isn't it? He meant it's had years of development work behind it - Office 2013 and 8 Explorer are products of continuous development within the same scope of technology - MUI apps by comparison are entirely new with a fledgling API underneath them.


Who designed Office 2013, Windows 8 explorer and the Windows 8 Modern UI? Right, it's the same company, the same company who couldn't bother making sure that the previous applications, including ones currently already shipping, were playing fine with Modern UI. Just because it's new it doesn't justify that it breaks with everything else, they could have added a wrapper or some other workaround to have previous applications working with the mail app.

francescob said,

Did I say the opposite? So did netscape mail and eudora in the previous century.

Referring to what I quoted, yes.


francescob said,
Then you're not actually using Windows 8, you're just using the part it inherited from Windows 7 rather than using it how it's supposed to be used.

Because i'm not using the mail app? I'm sorry but 8 has fair bit more to it, and i'm using probably more of it than most given what I do. I'm probably using it on more devices than most too since i've got both desktop and tablet systems using it.

francescob said,

He said that Windows 8 helps his productivity: Office 2013 not able to send mails and being forced use to open the mail app and find the attachment using the horrible Metro file explorer that is nowhere near designed to handle any decent number of files every damn time is nowhere near productive. Stating the opposite just because you use a fraction of the Windows 8 feature or actually don't use any of the new features/apps at all is just living in denial. Nobody said they won't improve those apps in the future but right now and even worse at launch they're a complete undeniable mess.

Office 2013 can send email on Windows 8. It works. So does notes. Which is annoying frankly.. I've no idea why you've decided I'm using a 'fraction' of Windows 8's features since I've made no such statement.
I'm all up for exchanging viewpoints and debate - so please don't take offence to my disagreeing with you (you seem somewhat aggressive in your prose).

dangel said,

Referring to what I quoted, yes.

Having multiple accounts doesn't magically make it usable for work, we're talking about an app that didn't have a search box until a couple of days ago, that doesn't even allow collapsing IMAP folders, even casual users would have had troubles using that. If you don't use the Windows 8 mail app you lose the sharing option from other metros applications (and there can be only one default Windows Mail App) therefore I'm starting having doubts you actually used those apps.

dangel said,

Because i'm not using the mail app? I'm sorry but 8 has fair bit more to it, and i'm using probably more of it than most given what I do.

The mail app was just an example, the other applications are just as broken. Another example: the Photo app doesn't remember the sort order (so if you have many date-sorted folders it will always start from the least recent), it doesn't remember the thumbnail size so you're forced to CTRL+scroll to reduce them every damn time, when you import photos you can no longer delete them after importing and you can't even group them. The video and music apps? Those are even worse. Windows 8 certainly had other features but the Metro UI is certainly the main feature, and they launched it and integrated it in a way to push users to adopt it way too early.

dangel said,

Office 2013 can send email on Windows 8. It works. So does notes. Which is annoying frankly.. I've no idea why you've decided I'm using a 'fraction' of Windows 8's features since I've made no such statement.
I'm all up for exchanging viewpoints and debate - so please don't take offence to my disagreeing with you (you seem somewhat aggressive in your prose).

It does work IF you use a non-metro client. If you use the metro Mail app you get an error because it doesn't support MAPI. If the same windows explorer of Windows 8 doesn't support the Mail App you can't deny that it's a glaring omission.

francescob said,

Having multiple accounts doesn't magically make it usable for work, we're talking about an app that didn't have a search box until a couple of days ago, that doesn't even allow collapsing IMAP folders, even casual users would have had troubles using that. If you don't use the Windows 8 mail app you lose the sharing option from other metros applications (and there can be only one default Windows Mail App) therefore I'm starting having doubts you actually used those apps.

I have, they work well enough not to be classified as 'completely unusable' (my point). I don't see a way of persuading you otherwise so that's that.

francescob said,
The mail app was just an example, the other applications are just as broken. Another example: the Photo app doesn't remember the sort order (so if you have many date-sorted folders it will always start from the least recent), it doesn't remember the thumbnail size so you're forced to CTRL+scroll to reduce them every damn time, when you import photos you can no longer delete them after importing and you can't even group them. The video and music apps? Those are even worse. Windows 8 certainly had other features but the Metro UI is certainly the main feature, and they launched it and integrated it in a way to push users to adopt it way too early.

Heh, again i'm not defending the baked in MUI apps - but 8 has plenty of stuff for me to use outside of MUI (which I do) and much of it I like very much (some, not so much). The WinRT platform is a major feature no doubt (and more importantly visible one) and definitely one of focus for MS. I think they actually launched it primarily for themselves and developers knowing full well it'd attract flak - I don't think they're interested in the short term at all, they're interested in making inroads into tablet and mobile and (trying at least) to bring all three platforms closer together (brave or stupid we'll see). If MS can get away with a truly spectacularly bad release (Vista - although not entirely their fault in many ways) then one with annoyances is easily survivable - especially if they can move to a more rapid schedule of updates instead of the classic 3 year cycle they've (mostly) observed.

francescob said,
It does work IF you use a non-metro client. If you use the metro Mail app you get an error because it doesn't support MAPI. If the same windows explorer of Windows 8 doesn't support the Mail App you can't deny that it's a glaring omission.

...and I didn't now did I? In fact I agreed - I said that a non-MUI client worked, and that was a choice he had. Nothing more! If development is anything like it is here then certain features get prioritised above others and get implemented sooner - that may be due to demand from end users but equally it can be because of limits of the system. Perhaps changes in 8.1 will enable more functionality in the apps running on it. I'm currently wading through the documentation and looking at those limitations because there are all sorts of restrictions on what they can and can't do by the platform. The direct consequence of which is I won't be able to implement as much as I'd like for a MUI app versus our existing desktop version (which is OK since we're targeting touch and want an app with a reduced feature set for ease of use). That's not static though and I might find later this year I can do a whole lot more

Then again, perhaps they'd rather we all subscribed to office 365 eh?

francescob said,

Office 2013, Windows 8 Explorer are 20 years old? Yeah, right...


Windows Explorer is almost 20 years old, 19 to be exact since it saw its entrance with Win95.
The first release of Microsoft Office is 22 years ago mate.

dangel said,

...

Meh, no point. These guys aren't just disliking a product, they are blindly hating it.

Hating all the Modern stuff, while except the start screen... ITS FRIGGING OPTIONAL people. How hard is it to understand? Don't want to use it, THEN DONT.

LegendaryRamzi said,

Comparing features of software that is 20? years old (outlook) with recently published apps... right


I do not have a problem if you decide to build something completely new as long as it works better than what is supposed to replace. Simple as that...

Tomaya Rexy said,

What speed boost are you talking about?
Let me guess, your business model consists of constantly rebooting computers? You should try S3 power state, that will really push your productivity through the roof...

Strangely enough, yes, we do start our computers everyday. No point leaving them on over night.
Any way this isn;t the speed boost i was talking about but thanks for remind me that is quicker to. Cheers

dangel said,

I have, they work well enough not to be classified as 'completely unusable' (my point). I don't see a way of persuading you otherwise so that's that.

They're usable if you're content with the most basic features: to send a receive a couple of mails, to browse a few folder of photos, to listen a couple of discs. Anything more than that and the claustrophobic feeling starts to build up.

dangel said,

Heh, again i'm not defending the baked in MUI apps - but 8 has plenty of stuff for me to use outside of MUI (which I do) and much of it I like very much (some, not so much).

But the MUI is the main feature, pretending Windows 8 is perfectly fine because it has other improvements is just ignoring the proverbial white elephant in the room. Using Windows 8 how it's supposed to be used, with metro apps and stuff is just a trainwreck and they'll have to improve a lot before they'll become usable on desktop computers.

dangel said,

...and I didn't now did I? In fact I agreed - I said that a non-MUI client worked, and that was a choice he had. Nothing more! If development is anything like it is here then certain features get prioritised above others and get implemented sooner - that may be due to demand from end users but equally it can be because of limits of the system. Perhaps changes in 8.1 will enable more functionality in the apps running on it. I'm currently wading through the documentation and looking at those limitations because there are all sorts of restrictions on what they can and can't do by the platform. The direct consequence of which is I won't be able to implement as much as I'd like for a MUI app versus our existing desktop version (which is OK since we're targeting touch and want an app with a reduced feature set for ease of use). That's not static though and I might find later this year I can do a whole lot more

They will clearly keep adding features, my point was that Win8 and the included Apps were rushed when they were nowhere near ready to be replacements for the previous applications. They're not integrated, they have very few features yet they decided to force the new metro UI only to push for its and the related store adoption. I use Windows 8 as well and have been using it since it came out but I had to stop using any of the metro apps and wouldn't recommend even the most inexperienced user to use them (right-click to select, ctrl+wheel to zoom, the obnoxious scrolling, they're really the complete opposite than an user friendly app should be if you don't have a touchscreen).

dangel said,

Then again, perhaps they'd rather we all subscribed to office 365 eh?

At 3x the price I think they can keep it for a long, long while.

Shadowzz said,

Windows Explorer is almost 20 years old, 19 to be exact since it saw its entrance with Win95.
The first release of Microsoft Office is 22 years ago mate.

And both have remained the same? Windows 1.0 came out in 1985, so? What point does this comparison makes, both softwares came out along with Win8, both from the same company and both don't work well with Win8 mail app, whose fault is it? Santa Claus'?

Shadowzz said,

Meh, no point. These guys aren't just disliking a product, they are blindly hating it.

Hating all the Modern stuff, while except the start screen... ITS FRIGGING OPTIONAL people. How hard is it to understand? Don't want to use it, THEN DONT.


Not using it doesn't change the fact that it's still there. And it sucks. Is it so hard to accept?

Mikeffer said,

Strangely enough, yes, we do start our computers everyday. No point leaving them on over night.
Any way this isn;t the speed boost i was talking about but thanks for remind me that is quicker to. Cheers

Then just use standby/hibernation and avoid most boot times entirely?

francescob said,

But the MUI is the main feature, pretending Windows 8 is perfectly fine because it has other improvements is just ignoring the proverbial white elephant in the room

Stop talking rubbish. The improvements in the desktop experience are worth the upgrade alone and are worthy of any normal Windows upgrade. The fact that we also get the MUI if we choose to use it is just a bonus.

Mikeffer said,

Stop talking rubbish. The improvements in the desktop experience are worth the upgrade alone and are worthy of any normal Windows upgrade. The fact that we also get the MUI if we choose to use it is just a bonus.


Yes, the tabbed explorer and the pause button for file operations are worth the 200$ upgrade price alone. And I'm sure the seconds you save on the boot time will certainly sum up and surpass the time wasted backupping/upgrading/finding and installing all the driver upgrades. Compelling arguments, you have them. Not.

Fritzly said,

I do not have a problem if you decide to build something completely new as long as it works better than what is supposed to replace. Simple as that...

Stupid argument since it is not an obligatory update.

Mikeffer said,

In your opinion. Which i wholly disagree with. I run my business on Win 8 machines and the extra speed boost is great for productivity.

Please stop spreading your opinions as fact, they're not.

I love how an extra millisecond of performance improvements from Windows 7 to 8 is boosting your productivity. Tells a lot about your "business".

Mikeffer said,

Stop talking rubbish. The improvements in the desktop experience are worth the upgrade alone and are worthy of any normal Windows upgrade. The fact that we also get the MUI if we choose to use it is just a bonus.

What improvements to the desktop experience? They removed aero and added ribbons on top of folders. Geez now my business will grow thanks to the workers having quick access to the rename button and the folder options. All in one click!

LegendaryRamzi said,

Obviously facts mean nothing to you.


Yes, the first version of Office came out twenty years ago just like Windows, therefore both have remained exactly the same and have in NO way been adapted to play well with each other. Good to know!

BRB, need to reboot in DOS mode to use Word 2013, I might even play some NIBBLES.BAS and GORILLA.BAS as well!

francescob said,

Yes, the first version of Office came out twenty years ago just like Windows, therefore both have remained exactly the same and have in NO way been adapted to play well with each other. Good to know!

BRB, need to reboot in DOS mode to use Word 2013, I might even play some NIBBLES.BAS and GORILLA.BAS as well!

Yah I'm surprised that Office is not a part of Windows...

LegendaryRamzi said,

Stupid argument since it is not an obligatory update.


MS clearly sees Metro as the future and it is betting on it; personally I would have no problems to use it if this new paradigm would improve the usability and the productivity of the one one used before, if not.... clearly there is a problem but it seems that stupidity makes people blind of the obviousness.

Pretty sure neither Onionjuice nor RobFrancis have used Windows 8 so not poi t arguing with trolls.

I mean, onionjuice even thinks he knows all about my business haha

Fritzly said,

MS clearly sees Metro as the future and it is betting on it; personally I would have no problems to use it if this new paradigm would improve the usability and the productivity of the one one used before, if not.... clearly there is a problem but it seems that stupidity makes people blind of the obviousness.

X years from now there will not be any glaring feature omissions. People who don't need these 'advanced' features can switch today. Others like you have to wait a little longer. This is how all software rewrites go.

And why can't you use a regular mail application that supports MAPI (such as, for example, the previous and current flavors of Outlook)? Right-click/Send to, in fact, *still* works with Outlook 2013, for example - I sent two files via Outlook to my aunt (Mom's sister) in Lakewood, WA - a Seattle suburb, in *exactly that way*, and via Windows 8 Pro with Media Center, just yesterday. (Both Outlook and 8 are x64, by the by.) MAPI still works (if anything, Outlook is improved in terms of MAPI support in 8 vs. 7) - Windows does not include an application or applet that supports MAPI by default (which has been the case since the original Microsoft Exchange built-in client went away with the death of 9x/NT4 - Outlook Express/Windows Mail did not support MAPI).

Digitalx said
Starting with Windows 8 they've of proved they don't give a rats ass about their customers, desktop or laptop computers or even listening to feedback any more which made up the core of their business and its popularity in the past. So one could say they're already well and truly heading in that direction already.

Imo, the way they're heading they might as well just go join ranks with RIM.

When's the last time Microsoft really changed things. Hmm, 18 years ago. No company is going to keep the same way of computing that they've been using for that long.

Like Dangel said, they're trying to adapt to the newer landscape. The world is changing, and you should know by now that in the tech industry, nothing stays the same.

Fritzly said
I do not have a problem if you decide to build something completely new as long as it works better than what is supposed to replace. Simple as that...
Which Windows 8 does.

onionjuice said
I love how an extra millisecond of performance improvements from Windows 7 to 8 is boosting your productivity. Tells a lot about your "business".
It's a helluva lot more than a millisecond.

dtourond said,
Which Windows 8 does.

This is very subjective: IMO overall the OS has improved but the whole Metro experience has a long way to go before getting au pair with the previous paradigm.
Granted you can just use the desktop and ignore Metro but the latter is, in MS opinion, the future and as it is at the moment the advantage is not there.

francescob said,

And both have remained the same? Windows 1.0 came out in 1985, so? What point does this comparison makes, both softwares came out along with Win8, both from the same company and both don't work well with Win8 mail app, whose fault is it? Santa Claus'?


Not using it doesn't change the fact that it's still there. And it sucks. Is it so hard to accept?


No that they did not remain the same was exactly my point. Metro is what, 6 months old and people treat it like its a complete abomination. While its more feature-rich and much more workable then the first versions its significant others.
It will continue to improve over time. Remember the hatred a desktop received when first introduced? You are aware XEROX wanted to drop the GUI they where working on because they saw absolutely no future in it right (and that Apple saved it basically).
You are aware that people like you, in hordes have been hating everything about the start menu when it came out with Windows 95.
But now, probably allot of the same people (if they're still in tech) cry rivers about Modern....
This does not sound at all idiotic and hypocritical to you does it?

So what it comes with it.. Windows (or any OS for that matter) comes with TONS of stuff you NEVER use. But all of a sudden 1 of the features you don't like and don't use, is a hatefull POS?

No point in argueing mate, you have tried. But like the Modern haters that let their voice heard so loudly... I can always expect idiotic and irrational reasoning.

Shadowzz said,

No that they did not remain the same was exactly my point. Metro is what, 6 months old and people treat it like its a complete abomination. While its more feature-rich and much more workable then the first versions its significant others.

That doesn't change the fact that the apps offer only the most basic functionalities and are therefore useless to a lot of users. And I've used them, and I've made other people try to use them, and they don't work, they're a complicated featureless mess that is extremely hard to use with keyboard and mouse. Whoever claims they're good clearly doesn't hasn't even bothered trying them.
Shadowzz said,

It will continue to improve over time. Remember the hatred a desktop received when first introduced? You are aware XEROX wanted to drop the GUI they where working on because they saw absolutely no future in it right (and that Apple saved it basically).
You are aware that people like you, in hordes have been hating everything about the start menu when it came out with Windows 95.
But now, probably allot of the same people (if they're still in tech) cry rivers about Modern....
This does not sound at all idiotic and hypocritical to you does it?

No it doesn't, Metro is CURRENTLY crap and you keep blindly ignoring that fact just because it will get better in the future. When Windows 95A was released it was extremely bad as well, same for Vista, and NOBODY would have ever claimed those were some kind of magic wonders because XP and Windows 7 in the future would have been far more polished and refined. That's a nonsensical point.
Shadowzz said,

So what it comes with it.. Windows (or any OS for that matter) comes with TONS of stuff you NEVER use. But all of a sudden 1 of the features you don't like and don't use, is a hatefull POS?

That's not just one random feature. That's the MAIN feature.
Shadowzz said,

No point in argueing mate, you have tried. But like the Modern haters that let their voice heard so loudly... I can always expect idiotic and irrational reasoning.

Yeah, sure. I'm certain that if we made the same reasoning for the first OS X, that was complete crap at start, you would have completely different things to say.

francescob said,
because XP and Windows 7

You obviously never use XP on release then, that was total crap. Also, 7 just built on the solid framework of Vista.

Mikeffer said,

You obviously never use XP on release then, that was total crap. Also, 7 just built on the solid framework of Vista.


XP got a complete overhaul with the service packs, so I don't think it would be incorrect to say that XP RTM was crap, just like was Vista, so I don't see anything wrong with my argument. Just because the service packs made it better it doesn't change that the RTM version of XP was a mess.

francescob

They're usable if you're content with the most basic features: to send a receive a couple of mails, to browse a few folder of photos, to listen a couple of discs. Anything more than that and the claustrophobic feeling starts to build up.

So, to summarise, you concede that they aren't in fact 'completely unusable'? Great, thanks

francescob
But the MUI is the main feature, pretending Windows 8 is perfectly fine because it has other improvements is just ignoring the proverbial white elephant in the room. Using Windows 8 how it's supposed to be used, with metro apps and stuff is just a trainwreck and they'll have to improve a lot before they'll become usable on desktop computers.

It's the most visible feature - the fact you don't see the rest of the work that's gone on in the OS doesn't change the fact that a lot else has happened. No one is suggesting that the WinRT platform isn't massively significant and a massive priority for MS. That said, it's possible to stay outside of MUI for 99% of desktop use which means it probably isn't the show-stopper you think it is for the majority and even less so given a raft of UI 'enhancements' can basically put the sacred start menu back (with all it's imperfections). So again, we agree on the whole - I don't really see the contention.

francescob
They will clearly keep adding features, my point was that Win8 and the included Apps were rushed when they were nowhere near ready to be replacements for the previous applications. They're not integrated, they have very few features yet they decided to force the new metro UI only to push for its and the related store adoption. I use Windows 8 as well and have been using it since it came out but I had to stop using any of the metro apps and wouldn't recommend even the most inexperienced user to use them (right-click to select, ctrl+wheel to zoom, the obnoxious scrolling, they're really the complete opposite than an user friendly app should be if you don't have a touchscreen).

Heh, you ignore that the same is true in any implementation - 7 is full of completely hidden non-obvious functionality (explorer) and the start menu was far from perfect either (but at least they introduced instant search to avoid most of it). But again, I don't disagree that MUI has (plenty) of rough edges - what I do disagree with is that they are blocking issues for most users because that's not what I've observed and not what i've experienced. MS could have sat on 8 for another year, implemented a whole heap of extra features, fleshed out their apps more etc etc - so what? They didn't because it wasn't important enough for them versus getting a new platform kicked off and entering markets they're basically nowhere in. Software development (even on this scale) works like that - that's what I was hinting at (obviously too subtly). Your point, originally, way back when, was that things were "completely unusable" which you've later retracted so I don't really see much point covering the same ground repeatedly. We largely agree so that's that, onto 8.1 and hopefully some improvements for all.

dangel said,

So, to summarise, you concede that they aren't in fact 'completely unusable'? Great, thanks

If by 'usable' you mean applications that you can open, scream at, and close in anger there are no applications more usable than those. As I said maybe a 7 years old would suffice with that, but I doubt that anybody would use applications that are so outright underfeatured that not only feel like some sort of unfinished prototype tech demo, but also feel badly designed to start with. A photo app that leaves all your photos to pile up in your camera (you have to swtich to desktop and clean the camera folder by hand hoping you pick only the correct photos) and that crashes as soon as you try to view any high-res photo (any 300dpi page from scanners = crash), a mail app with the search box hidden somewhere and where you can't collapse folders, a music app that freezes more often that it plays music, wtf?

dangel said,

It's the most visible feature - the fact you don't see the rest of the work that's gone on in the OS doesn't change the fact that a lot else has happened. No one is suggesting that the WinRT platform isn't massively significant and a massive priority for MS. That said, it's possible to stay outside of MUI for 99% of desktop use which means it probably isn't the show-stopper you think it is for the majority and even less so given a raft of UI 'enhancements' can basically put the sacred start menu back (with all it's imperfections). So again, we agree on the whole - I don't really see the contention.

Sure you can stay outside the MUI but doing that would be just a twisted use of Win8. I may as well claim that Linux is exactly as Windows because you can run apps/games on it through wine because that would be on the same line.

dangel said,

Heh, you ignore that the same is true in any implementation - 7 is full of completely hidden non-obvious functionality (explorer) and the start menu was far from perfect either (but at least they introduced instant search to avoid most of it). But again, I don't disagree that MUI has (plenty) of rough edges - what I do disagree with is that they are blocking issues for most users because that's not what I've observed and not what i've experienced. MS could have sat on 8 for another year, implemented a whole heap of extra features, fleshed out their apps more etc etc - so what? They didn't because it wasn't important enough for them versus getting a new platform kicked off and entering markets they're basically nowhere in. Software development (even on this scale) works like that - that's what I was hinting at (obviously too subtly).

You may not agree that those are blocking issues, certainly those aren't blocking issues for expert users who just turn the MUI off with some third party tools but I can swear I never saw so many people having problems using an operating system than the ones I see with Win8. Also let's not act like Win8 really improved anything else with no other drawbacks: people lose DVD playing capabilities and media center if they don't buy it separately, they lose Windows DVD maker, they lose the photo importing autoplay because it's locked to metro and many other little things that had to be sacrificed to metro, like Windows Live Suite that is starting to end up abandoned and relegated to simple maintenance releases. Just because Microsoft had to rush Win8 to desperately stop losing more users to tablets doesn't justify that people have the ignore the huge problems it has on anything that doesn't have a touchscreen.

dangel said,

Your point, originally, way back when, was that things were "completely unusable" which you've later retracted so I don't really see much point covering the same ground repeatedly. We largely agree so that's that, onto 8.1 and hopefully some improvements for all.

Sure, 'completely unusable' literally wouldn't be exact but I never meant that literally as I wrote in that same exact post saying that maybe those were designed for the 7 years old in the ads. A photo app that only allows rotating/cropping, a mail app without a search box, interfaces where you have to mix right click and left clicks, ctrl and scroll wheels, those apps are basically spitting in the face of every progress we had since XP after which where everything started becoming clear, organized and always on screen. When even technologically impaired users have far more issues with the oversimplified metro UI than with a common desktop programs then there's clearly something wrong.

francescob said,

You keep repeating the same: MUI applications lack features.
Everybody knows this and it has been explained a million times. You keep ignoring it for trolling reasons.
You cannot find the search functionality. RTFM.

You think 'experts' turn off MUI. Well I'm an expert and I use Windows RT for 20% of my job already.
Your blocking issues aren't the important issues. What is important:
-Touch. This is more important than anything. The majority of people and future formfactors demand this.
-Cloud. This needs a close integration with the OS. Windows 8 is already a big step.
-Security. Right now virusses are a huge problem. Windows 8 is trying to solve this.
-Battery. Batteries are not going to improve anymore. Software has to solve this. For software to solve this the desktop has to die.
-...

All of this is long overdue, so Microsoft is pushing it now while keeping the Desktop there for legacy reasons.
Still you insist cropping and rotating images is critical...

LegendaryRamzi said,

You keep repeating the same: MUI applications lack features.
Everybody knows this and it has been explained a million times. You keep ignoring it for trolling reasons.


And you keep ignoring that it's the main feature of Windows 8 and that beside that a task manager with graphs, a copy dialog with pause buttons and explorer ribbons don't justify A 200 DOLLARS UPGRADE, half the price of a damn computer.

LegendaryRamzi said,

You cannot find the search functionality. RTFM.

You should RTFM, they added the search bar only in the last update. Before you had to use the charms bar every damn time. Poor design at its finest.

LegendaryRamzi said,

You think 'experts' turn off MUI. Well I'm an expert and I use Windows RT for 20% of my job already.

Wow!! 20% of your job! Wow, just wow! On a machine that costs as much as a new laptop, NOW that's a successful scenario!

LegendaryRamzi said,

Your blocking issues aren't the important issues. What is important:
-Touch. This is more important than anything. The majority of people and future formfactors demand this.

Yes, enjoy the gorilla arm using one of those awesome touch screen desktops.
LegendaryRamzi said,

-Cloud. This needs a close integration with the OS. Windows 8 is already a big step.

Cloud: because penstick drives are way too complicated and because losing personal data wasn't easy enough.
LegendaryRamzi said,

-Security. Right now virusses are a huge problem. Windows 8 is trying to solve this.

Because infections haven't been caused almost exclusively by third party software like Adobe or Oracle's in the last years... . Does Windows 8 do anything about that, unlike other browsers that block vulnerable plugins? No.
LegendaryRamzi said,

-Battery. Batteries are not going to improve anymore. Software has to solve this. For software to solve this the desktop has to die.

My pentium D and ivy bridge TDP values would beg to differ.

LegendaryRamzi said,

All of this is long overdue, so Microsoft is pushing it now while keeping the Desktop there for legacy reasons.

Now that's an argument! Almost as awesome as the argument another guy had in the Office 2013 thread saying that Office 365 being 3x more expensive added value to Office 2013.
And users have to be happy with the half baked Windows 8... because? Because Microsoft had to desperately rush the first crap it could put together on the market therefore all the flaws must be ignored? Please...

LegendaryRamzi said,

Still you insist cropping and rotating images is critical...

If you needed so little features go back to XP, or Windows 98. You won't be disappointed. I bet your 20% productivity will improve dramatically there too. Heck, I'll even throw in a Windows Entertainment Pack floppy for Windows 3.1 for free if you do!

francescob said,

Numbers instead of quotes to save space:

1.It's not obligatory to buy Windows 8, if you don't like the upgrade you don't have to buy it.
2.So the search bar is there, ... you're complaining for no reason. I prefer charms.
3.Yes that is a successful scenario. The price of hardware is only a tiny fraction of what workhours cost.
Any improvement in productivity is a succes.
4.Invalid argument. I am not talking about desktops. I am talking about phones, tables and future formfactors.
If you have a desktop with Windows 8 you just use mouse and keyboard that also works.
5. Just sharing a file is only a tiny fraction of what the cloud brings.
6. Sandboxing should improve security.
7. Processors don't change the fact that you get horrible batterylife because of the desktop.
8. All new software with significant changes are released like this. Nobody is ignoring the flaws.
The same wining also returns every time. It is annoying.
9. I don't even understand what your point is.

LegendaryRamzi said,

1.It's not obligatory to buy Windows 8, if you don't like the upgrade you don't have to buy it.

It's also not obligatory to separate my previous arguments in pieces to either that the UI is a mess or that it's not worth the price. The second is the result of the first.

LegendaryRamzi said,

2.So the search bar is there, ... you're complaining for no reason. I prefer charms.

The search bar is there NOW, a couple of weeks ago it was not. I don't really seem how pointing the mouse to the screen corner and waiting for the charms bar to appear every damn time to click the button to be able to search could be preferable to the search box.

LegendaryRamzi said,

3.Yes that is a successful scenario. The price of hardware is only a tiny fraction of what workhours cost.
Any improvement in productivity is a succes.

And obtaining 20% of the productivity when you could obtain 100% on a same-priced laptop is... better?

LegendaryRamzi said,

4.Invalid argument. I am not talking about desktops. I am talking about phones, tables and future formfactors.
If you have a desktop with Windows 8 you just use mouse and keyboard that also works.

Phones don't run Windows 8, tablet apps don't rely on the same UI phone apps do as Microsoft, Apple and Google have well learned. And Modern UI with a mouse, and even far worse with a touchpad, as repeated several time and as wrote in many windows 8 reviews is a nightmare from hell.

LegendaryRamzi said,

5. Just sharing a file is only a tiny fraction of what the cloud brings.

Yes, there also beautiful things like finding your thousands of email contacts flooding your phone. But it's all good, because some random cutlery salesmen company may need that.

LegendaryRamzi said,

6. Sandboxing should improve security.

Sandboxing could be done on desktop applications too. And applications could also easily be self contained and for multiple platforms, like Apple has proven between the many versions of OS X. Tabletification of Windows isn't necessary for that.

LegendaryRamzi said,

7. Processors don't change the fact that you get horrible batterylife because of the desktop.

You get horrible battery life because:
1) Manufacturers are incompetent monkeys, as proven by decades of the low quality hardware they use.
2) Microsoft allows all sort of crap being bundled with computers and device drivers and has failed in decades to set decent standards for them
The desktop interface doesn't really have to do much in all this, the same interface could run on an old pentium and phones/tablets are far ore powerful than that.

LegendaryRamzi said,

8. All new software with significant changes are released like this. Nobody is ignoring the flaws.
The same wining also returns every time. It is annoying.

And the same people that keep saying everything is fine when even the whole market says otherwise are just as annoying.

LegendaryRamzi said,

9. I don't even understand what your point is.

That if you're content with Metro UI apps features you might as well use something from 20 years ago with the same results. Maybe even an Apple Newton might suffice.

francescob said
The search bar is there NOW, a couple of weeks ago it was not. I don't really seem how pointing the mouse to the screen corner and waiting for the charms bar to appear every damn time to click the button to be able to search could be preferable to the search box.
You do realize that you need to move the mouse to the top right corner, then move down, or (pay close attention) press Win+Q.

dtourond said,
You do realize that you need to move the mouse to the top right corner, then move down, or (pay close attention) press Win+Q.

Lets make it easier...
Press the WINKEY and start typing.

francescob said,
Did you know that disco record sales were up 400% for the year ending 1976? If these trends continue… A-y-y-y!

There was a disco backlash. I don't see user suddenly rejecting android, unless there's a good reason.

MS gets paid licencing fees for every Android device sold, MS does not want nor need "users suddenly rejecting Android". Simple.


Apparently a huge, disruptive shift is on the way that will see the majority of people use tablets as their main computing device and that will cause Microsoft's OS share

Depends on the kind of tablet. If the tablet doesnt run full apps, then I will not use it as my main device. I like the Surface Pro, but the screen is to small for my tastes.

techbeck said,

Depends on the kind of tablet. If the tablet doesnt run full apps, then I *snip*

Subjective. Analysts can't afford to think that way. They don't care about the "I"s. They have to look at the bigger numbers, the bigger trends, and as many angles as possible. It's long been understood that frequenters of sites like this and other tech blogs are not representative of the personal computing whole, yet we seem eager to mistakenly base our estimates of the future on our own tastes and opinions.

ingramator said,
That is the most stupid thing I have ever heard. You win.

Yes. Much less stupid is a sudden surge of Windows sales because of the wonderful, game-changing Windows Blue this year. /s

Luis Mazza said,

Yes. Much less stupid is a sudden surge of Windows sales because of the wonderful, game-changing Windows Blue this year. /s

It'll take more than 4 years to displace MS in the Enterprise and Business world. So, Windows Blue winning people over is more likely to happen than MS being irrelevant in 4 years.

zeke009 said,
It'll take more than 4 years to displace MS in the Enterprise and Business world. So, Windows Blue winning people over is more likely to happen than MS being irrelevant in 4 years.

Maybe they won't be displaced in the enterprise world... IBM is also pretty strong in the enterprise world. It's just not as relevant as it once was. Also totally irrelevant in the consumer market.

Luis Mazza said,

Maybe they won't be displaced in the enterprise world... IBM is also pretty strong in the enterprise world. It's just not as relevant as it once was. Also totally irrelevant in the consumer market.

^ +1 It'll be a long time before Windows is replaced in the enterprise world. But in the consumer market? MSFT better start innovating.

onionjuice said,

^ +1 It'll be a long time before Windows is replaced in the enterprise world. But in the consumer market? MSFT better start innovating.

Maybe they should at least copy what Google and Apple are doing regarding UI. Microsoft is not very used to "innovation", so maybe they better stick with what they know.

Luis Mazza said,

Maybe they should at least copy what Google and Apple are doing regarding UI. Microsoft is not very used to "innovation", so maybe they better stick with what they know.

What is Apple doing in UI design? Oh yeah, pretty much the same thing for the past 20 years: http://www.zdnet.com/proof-tha...0-years-gallery-7000013520/

And what is Google doing with Android? Since its inception its been very similar to iOS: grid computing of icons app based model.

Like it or not, MS is pretty much the only one bringing new UI designs to mainstream computing.

ModernMech said,

What is Apple doing in UI design? Oh yeah, pretty much the same thing for the past 20 years: http://www.zdnet.com/proof-tha...0-years-gallery-7000013520/

And what is Google doing with Android? Since its inception its been very similar to iOS: grid computing of icons app based model.

Like it or not, MS is pretty much the only one bringing new UI designs to mainstream computing.

I don't want dancing tiles. I want something that works. The UI from Apple and Google works. That's what consumers want. MS messes up the UI, the result is what we see.

Luis Mazza said,

Maybe they should at least copy what Google and Apple are doing regarding UI. Microsoft is not very used to "innovation", so maybe they better stick with what they know.

Google is wholeheartedly copying Metro and bing UIs in their products and all reports point to Sir Ive going for a flatter iOS UI. So yea, it's Microsoft not innovating...

BajiRav said,

Google is wholeheartedly copying Metro and bing UIs in their products and all reports point to Sir Ive going for a flatter iOS UI. So yea, it's Microsoft not innovating...

lol Google is going flat since before the Chrome browser and webapps, even before Windows 7. Do your homework.
If Apple is going flat, that's ok for me, because you may go flat, but not with annoying and ugly tiles or charm-WTF bars showing up when you move your mouse.

Luis Mazza said,

I don't want dancing tiles. I want something that works. The UI from Apple and Google works. That's what consumers want. MS messes up the UI, the result is what we see.

Not sure what UI you're referring to but it works just fine...

Luis Mazza said,

lol Google is going flat since before the Chrome browser and webapps, even before Windows 7. Do your homework.
If Apple is going flat, that's ok for me, because you may go flat, but not with annoying and ugly tiles or charm-WTF bars showing up when you move your mouse.

Uh no, they didn't do flat Chrome before Zune HD, you know the first true Metro only UI from Microsoft?

Luis Mazza said,

Maybe they should at least copy what Google and Apple are doing regarding UI. Microsoft is not very used to "innovation", so maybe they better stick with what they know.


MS isn't good with innovation?
They usually innovate to hard that its to far aheaed of its time.
And this whole Modern thing, the entire twist and turn from graphical nonsense everywhere, to plain and simple looks... and even Google is following Microsoft in the design.... Nuf said.

BajiRav said,

Uh no, they didn't do flat Chrome before Zune HD, you know the first true Metro only UI from Microsoft?

One word: GMAIL.
Bye

Luis Mazza said,
lol Google is going flat since before the Chrome browser and webapps, even before Windows 7. Do your homework.

Android didn't look like it does now only a short while ago. A LOT more flat squares nowadays. You may not like it but Metro has had a noticeable influence and I'm thankful for it. Also what's that about Gmail? Looks so much better these days with more rectangles.

Luis Mazza said,

Chrome version 8 (it is 26 right now)

http://www.google.com/imgres?u...dsp=15&tx=141&ty=70

Clearly, they're copying Microsoft. LMFAO


wow, should I be glad that you are actually taking efforts in your trolling?
All of your examples showed that their UI and icons were not flat. Gmail launched in 2004 IIRC and Chrome flat edition came after Zune HD.

Now let's discuss how Google innovated "flat UI" in Play store, Android, ChromeOS, google.com, google+ - shall we?

BajiRav said,

wow, should I be glad that you are actually taking efforts in your trolling?
All of your examples showed that their UI and icons were not flat. Gmail launched in 2004 IIRC and Chrome flat edition came after Zune HD.

Now let's discuss how Google innovated "flat UI" in Play store, Android, ChromeOS, google.com, google+ - shall we?

No, I won't discuss anything with you from now on. You're being ignored.
You can write as much BS as you want, I don't care. You don't deserve my attention.

Luis Mazza said,

Maybe they should at least copy what Google and Apple are doing regarding UI. Microsoft is not very used to "innovation", so maybe they better stick with what they know.

Oh yea because "innovation" = how the UI looks right? Its sad how innovation is defined by "how something looks" these days, instead of what it can do.

And yah in that case, Microsoft really innovated WP 8 because it looks radically different from WP 7 right. I'm so stunned at the level of innovation coming out from Microsoft.

onionjuice said,

Oh yea because "innovation" = how the UI looks right? Its sad how innovation is defined by "how something looks" these days, instead of what it can do.

And yah in that case, Microsoft really innovated WP 8 because it looks radically different from WP 7 right. I'm so stunned at the level of innovation coming out from Microsoft.

You cannot learn how to innovate from Microsoft, but you can learn how not to:

http://www.neowin.net/forum/to...d__595616772#entry595616772

Still Android is taking over Apple, if MS is irrelevant in 4 years, and Apple is below MS, it means exactly that Apple is even more irrelevant. Easy.

Also the good news for a Non Irrelevant MS is that all Android devices pay MS licincing royalties. Are Gartner idiots or just like to look that way?

VHMP01 said,
Also the good news for a Non Irrelevant MS is that all Android devices pay MS licincing royalties. Are Gartner idiots or just like to look that way?

ALL ? I don't think so. Only certain manufacturers have to. I don't think Motorola owes Microsoft anything.

VHMP01 said,
Also the good news for a Non Irrelevant MS is that all Android devices pay MS licincing royalties. Are Gartner idiots or just like to look that way?

So many clever comments. That's why Microsoft should quit Windows Phone and wish that Android wins...

BajiRav said,

Uh no, they didn't do flat Chrome before Zune HD, you know the first true Metro only UI from Microsoft?

Media Center, an other great concept crippled by obtuse management, was Metro even before Zune player.
Said that the problem is different: Northrop in the early '30s and the Germany built the first"flight wing" planes but the first truly operational plane using that design arrived just few years ago with the B2 bomber. There is a big difference between come out with a new concept and make it functional.

Gartner has been following *mobile is the NBT* mantra that practically all IT analysts have been pushing since prior to the IPO of Facebook. In fact, why did Facebook's IPO get whacked by the short-sellers? Concerns over mobile. (It's the same reason that Zynga, EA, and any and all in the gaming and social spaces have been taking their turns in the dunk tank - mobile monetization.) I'm not saying that mobile isn't huge - in terms of device count, it's larger by far than the desktop and larger-portable space combined. However, due to size (and most importantly, price) constraints, mobile will always be an adjunct - not a complete be-all in and of itself. There will be things that devices (no matter what OS they are running) will be flat-out unable to do (or, even if they ARE able to do it, the preference will for larger screen sizes).

Media Center is the best guide and PVR available. Love it. Microsoft has always refused to give it away with Windows for some reason. Only available in Ultimate 7, and now as an add-on

Fritzly said,

Media Center, an other great concept crippled by obtuse management

Luis Mazza said
I want something that works. The UI from Apple and Google works. That's what consumers want. MS messes up the UI, the result is what we see.
Wrong.

zeke009 said,
It'll take more than 4 years to displace MS in the Enterprise and Business world. So, Windows Blue winning people over is more likely to happen than MS being irrelevant in 4 years.

like rim and its blackberry...

Corporate and enterprise mean nothing.... consumer its taking android and embracing it, while windows market will stay the same because people dont want to replace what they are using with something harder to use, not intuitive and bad designed (windows 8).

Maybe microsoft should focus less on tablets and phones and rather mantain the desktop market which its falling appart thanks to windows 8....

Drossel said,

Are you blind or just stupid? Chrome's UI is not flat. the gradient goes from #dfdfdf (bottom) to #f9f8f9 (top). Gmail was never completely flat (still isn't).


He's not stupid, just TROLOLOLO

gets boring tho, people should stop trying so hard to make him think otherwise, look at his post history, its just blatant irrational ungrounded hatred.

MorganX said,
Media Center is the best guide and PVR available. Love it. Microsoft has always refused to give it away with Windows for some reason. Only available in Ultimate 7, and now as an add-on

Wow, that's a high level of ignorance there mate. Firstly it was bundled with the Home Premium versions of both Vista and 7 (So not restricted to the most expensive Ultimate SKUs at all), and before that, it was a special edition of Windows XP. In fact, it was available in every SKU of Windows 7 except Home Basic and Starter.

Secondly, they can't just "give it away" because it relies on the MPEG2 codec, which believe it or not, isn't free. Microsoft has to pay licensing fees for it, that's why the add-on isn't free for Windows 8.

I do agree though, it's an awesome bit of gear when hooked up to a TV.

Well, I wasn't going back to legacy versions, but you are correct it was in Home Premium, which costs more. Every 7 SKU meaning Premium, Pro, and Ultimate, all the version you pay extra for.

However your point about the MPEG2 codec is valid.