Media companies to Apple: We're sticking with Flash

Just a day after Apple overtook Microsoft as the world's most valuable tech company, the New York Post is reporting the end of Apple's brief ego-trip. According to their sources, large media companies, such as NBC and Time Warner, have told Apple that they'll be sticking with Flash for their online content. Apparently, changing their entire system to work with the iPad would be too costly. With Flash dominating the web, they don't feel it to be worth their time and money.

Last month, in an open letter to Adobe entitled "Thoughts on Flash," CEO of Apple, Steve Jobs, made his point of view crystal clear. In his opinion, Adobe's Flash platform is not suitable for their mobile devices and the company has, therefore, decided to push HTML5 as their preferred method for online media content delivery. Jobs has taken his stance so far, to the point where Apple no longer allows Adobe's tools to be used in the development of iPhone, iPod, or iPad apps.

Other media companies, such as Disney and CBS, have accommodated Jobs on some level. Disney has created an iPad app, and CBS is trying to offer a limited number of shows via the iPad's browser. However, news of media companies as large as NBC and Time Warner shunning Jobs and his radical approach can't be good for the makers of the world's most popular smartphone and tablet. It's also not good for consumers, who, in the end, are the ones that lose out.

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Meh, HTML5 can't handle half the stuff Adobe Flash can. Although I hate flash for its cumbersome architecture I have to say, it is pretty convenient.

ManOfMystery said,
Meh, HTML5 can't handle half the stuff Adobe Flash can. Although I hate flash for its cumbersome architecture I have to say, it is pretty convenient.

It really is. There is going to be things on the computer we hate, because it just doesn't do as we please. But just abandoning one of the most widely adopted forms of web development because of 1 snobby company is not the right way. And first, they should make sure their replacement is not still in its infancy.

I think many are missing the point that it's not HTML5 vs Flash, it's actually HTML5 + a supported video codec vs Flash. Thus, if for example Google switch YouTube and other services to their new VP8 codec and Apple don't embrace it then HTML5 support or not those sites/services won't work on iPhones/iPads/Safari.

I think Google's recent VP8 announcements (supported by Chrome, Firefox, Opera and IE9) will be the major threat to Apple.

The HTML5 will come, eventually.
If Apple thinks they can bring it on more quickly, by banning Flash on their silly devices, they are very much mistaken.

Shiranui said,
The HTML5 revolution will come, eventually.
If Apple thinks they can bring it on more quickly, by banning Flash on their silly devices, they are very much mistaken.

Was meant to be an edit.

Edited by Shiranui, May 28 2010, 5:27am :

HTML 5 as Jobs say mostly H245 video. How can it create something complex button animation like Flash does?

satus said,
HTML 5 as Jobs say mostly H245 video. How can it create something complex button animation like Flash does?

look up jQuery. that already does what flash does as far as "complex" button animation. also HTML5 has a tag called canvas. Look up "HTML5 video destruction" on google. no flash involved in that. HTML5 does much more than Jobs even talks about. Most people on neowin talk about HTML5 like its some futuristic thing that isnt anywhere near being ready to use for anything. most are so scared to change they dont realize it can already be used to replace flash. it is harder to develop in right now because there arent many toolkits out there for it but thats to be expected when you see sites like this one where most of the users like to pretend HTML5 doesnt exist yet.

Its all about the ads. Flash delivery lets you rotate through fresh ads. HTML Video would require it to be permanently embeded, reducing its value and effectively killing an ad delivery stream in short order. Control it through HTML 5 and it will just get filtered out the way MOST ads are filtered out now.

I could never figure out why Google was so anxious to drink the koolaid, since it pretty much screws with their ad delivery stream as well. I wonder if VP8 has a layer compositing system that will let them swap in pre-compressed ad video layers into the videos on the fly.

Xepol said,
Its all about the ads. Flash delivery lets you rotate through fresh ads. HTML Video would require it to be permanently embeded, reducing its value and effectively killing an ad delivery stream in short order. Control it through HTML 5 and it will just get filtered out the way MOST ads are filtered out now.

Welcome to AJAX, PHP, ASP, PERL etc..etc.. its not that hard to make it dynamic without flash

Shadowzz said,

Welcome to AJAX, PHP, ASP, PERL etc..etc.. its not that hard to make it dynamic without flash

Perhaps not, but it IS remarkably easy to block that way. As it is, even in IE, I almost never see ads. I just tosss about 20 sites into the restricted sites list - heck, I don't even get those annoying little popup ad clouds that some sites have that are nearly impossible to not click (pretending they are helping by providing definitions, but its all just ads, ads ads)

I stil get all the annoying embeded flash ads tho. You can't get rid of those without blocking the primary flash content itself because of how its joined.

I wonder how long it will take for the people that bought an iPad to regret it. The world isn't going to move to HTML5 any time soon, and why should they? The spec isn't even finished yet. Don't forget flash isn't just for web pages, a lot of games use it for guis.

eviltwigflipper said,
I wonder how long it will take for the people that bought an iPad to regret it. The world isn't going to move to HTML5 any time soon, and why should they? The spec isn't even finished yet. Don't forget flash isn't just for web pages, a lot of games use it for guis.

I'm still waiting for one of these people to sell me theirs.

yardman said,
Good......i don't like Flash, but dislike Apple more...

I find this comment weird.

No one forces you to buy Apple products. You don't have to use iTunes, buy an iPod, get an iPhone. None of that is rammed down your throat.

Where is my option for a flash-free internet? One where I don't have to install plugins to view a tiny bit of content, and yet more plugins to block the rest of that content that is 95% utterly annoying garbage.

Edited by mantis-, May 27 2010, 10:46pm :

Destructoid said,

I find this comment weird.

No one forces you to buy Apple products. You don't have to use iTunes, buy an iPod, get an iPhone. None of that is rammed down your throat.

Where is my option for a flash-free internet? One where I don't have to install plugins to view a tiny bit of content, and yet more plugins to block the rest of that content that is 95% utterly annoying garbage.

No one "forces" you to use flash either!!!!!

neo158 said,

No one "forces" you to use flash either!!!!!

Because for some sites I *HAVE* to. I don't like it, but I do, and it sucks. As an example, most of the scalable images on Newegg are flash. =/

Edited by mantis-, May 28 2010, 3:24am :

Destructoid said,

Because for some sites I *HAVE* to. I don't like it, but I do, and it sucks. As an example, most of the scalable images on Newegg are flash. =/

Go ahead, you can completely block flash if you want with apps, but then why would you want to shoot yourself in the foot?
It's like saying, I hate driving gasoline cars, why don't they do something else. There is, its called horse, but its not as good and requires you do put in more effort.....

If content can be both made in HTML5 and Flash, Flash is the hands down winner UNLESS the browser supports D2D (it is only faster then... and well browsers like FF4 are still a long way off).

Flash is NOT the winner in h264 performance though. Sure it can run 1080p fullscreen on a 800Mhz Intel Atom N270, but no where near the performance of MPC:HC (14-30 % CPU usage, ~24% average).

My 0.02$

Udedenkz said,
If content can be both made in HTML5 and Flash, Flash is the hands down winner UNLESS the browser supports D2D (it is only faster then... and well browsers like FF4 are still a long way off).

Flash is NOT the winner in h264 performance though. Sure it can run 1080p fullscreen on a 800Mhz Intel Atom N270, but no where near the performance of MPC:HC (14-30 % CPU usage, ~24% average).

My 0.02$

so a stand alone video application plays video better then a browser plug-in? this is shocking!

twist said,

so a stand alone video application plays video better then a browser plug-in? this is shocking!


the divx plugin has about the same performance as a plugin as standalone

OMIGAWD did i just wreck your statement?

These companies will probably offer dedicated apps in the meantime. But I think we will see people embrace HTML5 more once it becomes a standard. Considering that this whole HTML5 vs Flash debate is still in its infancy, Apple has done a good job in forcing the conversation. This probably is a blow to Apple, but not as big as many people might make it seem. I don't think anyone really thought the switch to HTML5 would happen overnight.

Lets also not forget that Apple is not completely opposed to Flash. They just want a good mobile version of Flash. If Adobe comes out with a good final version with Android, then at least they can say that they've delivered the product that Apple has asked for. Then it puts it back on Apple.

In the end, I see this as a good thing for technology in general. Those behind HTML5 will work to standardize it faster and Adobe will work to make Flash better than it is now. I think the consumer wins in the end.

asdavis10 said,
These companies will probably offer dedicated apps in the meantime. But I think we will see people embrace HTML5 more once it becomes a standard. Considering that this whole HTML5 vs Flash debate is still in its infancy, Apple has done a good job in forcing the conversation. This probably is a blow to Apple, but not as big as many people might make it seem. I don't think anyone really thought the switch to HTML5 would happen overnight.

Lets also not forget that Apple is not completely opposed to Flash. They just want a good mobile version of Flash. If Adobe comes out with a good final version with Android, then at least they can say that they've delivered the product that Apple has asked for. Then it puts it back on Apple.

In the end, I see this as a good thing for technology in general. Those behind HTML5 will work to standardize it faster and Adobe will work to make Flash better than it is now. I think the consumer wins in the end.

not really a blow considering the same companies that havent been getting content on the iphone/ipad will continue not getting their content on them. doesn't change anything. just reminds everyone with one of those devices that these companies continue to refuse putting their content on the device.

asdavis10 said,
These companies will probably offer dedicated apps in the meantime. But I think we will see people embrace HTML5 more once it becomes a standard. Considering that this whole HTML5 vs Flash debate is still in its infancy, Apple has done a good job in forcing the conversation. This probably is a blow to Apple, but not as big as many people might make it seem. I don't think anyone really thought the switch to HTML5 would happen overnight.

Lets also not forget that Apple is not completely opposed to Flash. They just want a good mobile version of Flash. If Adobe comes out with a good final version with Android, then at least they can say that they've delivered the product that Apple has asked for. Then it puts it back on Apple.

In the end, I see this as a good thing for technology in general. Those behind HTML5 will work to standardize it faster and Adobe will work to make Flash better than it is now. I think the consumer wins in the end.

Flash allows for the Apples Market to become almost obsolete, they won't allow it.

shakey said,

Flash allows for the Apples Market to become almost obsolete, they won't allow it.

we should see some statistics and see if pacman sales went down in the apple market on pacmans bday. if not, your claim is 100% false. on pacman's bday, google has pacman on its front page and it was 100% comparable with the iphone/ipad browser without using flash. everything that can be done in the apps can be done using javascript/php. get a new argument already.

SputnikGamer said,

we should see some statistics and see if pacman sales went down in the apple market on pacmans bday. if not, your claim is 100% false. on pacman's bday, google has pacman on its front page and it was 100% comparable with the iphone/ipad browser without using flash. everything that can be done in the apps can be done using javascript/php. get a new argument already.

Wow, grasping for nothing in these debates man. So we going to just go off of googles 1 time they offered pacman on a browser for free? Some seriously flawed and twisted logic some of yall use to try and defend apple......
Flash games and apps would surely kill apples profits if they let it. That's one of the big reasons it is not allowed.

shakey said,

Wow, grasping for nothing in these debates man. So we going to just go off of googles 1 time they offered pacman on a browser for free? Some seriously flawed and twisted logic some of yall use to try and defend apple......
Flash games and apps would surely kill apples profits if they let it. That's one of the big reasons it is not allowed.

pacman was live for 2 or three days. YOU said that those things can't exist at all because it would kill the App Store. Yet the game exists. So lets see the statistics were that specific app's downloads went down for that period of time because it was offered for free on the browser. Its your argument, don't change just because you were proven wrong. If what you said was true, the pac man app would have seen a dip in downloads during that time.

shakey said,

Flash allows for the Apples Market to become almost obsolete, they won't allow it.

Not sure I buy that one. Android are allowing flash a 'go ahead' (they would have to worry about the same issues, as they make money off of their app store too).

Besides people still want to purchase legit apps. No different then being on a computer and playing free flash games vs pop cap. Will it affect these cheesy developers who make mediocre apps that will now be freely available, YES

shakey said,

Flash allows for the Apples Market to become almost obsolete, they won't allow it.

I strongly doubt that. Flash games on websites won't replace quality dedicated apps. They will be an alternative for those kind of cheap games that people download once and play maybe once a month. As SaltLife pointed out, Android would have the same issue yet they are allowing it. Lets just be honest and admit that Flash for mobile devices has been a poor product. If Adobe makes it a good product, I don't see why Apple won't allow it. Apple and Adobe do work closely together to develop their Creative Suite products. That relationship is definitely strained right now but both companies need each other, if not for anything else, but to make money.

SputnikGamer said,

not really a blow considering the same companies that havent been getting content on the iphone/ipad will continue not getting their content on them. doesn't change anything. just reminds everyone with one of those devices that these companies continue to refuse putting their content on the device.

In the case of NBC, I think they will eventually change their tune. They're getting killed in ratings by ABC and certain Fox shows. And NBC at one time rejected iTunes. Yet we all know how that turned out. If YouTube can make their videos HTML5 ready, so can NBC. And they will.

shakey said,

Flash games and apps would surely kill apples profits if they let it. That's one of the big reasons it is not allowed.

I keep hearing the anti-Apple trolls claiming this, but I still don't understand their reasoning. People who write FREE games in Flash can just as easily release a FREE iPhone/iPad app version of their game. Either way, Apple isn't making a profit on them. If that was Apple's motivation, then they wouldn't allow free apps at all.

roadwarrior said,

I keep hearing the anti-Apple trolls claiming this, but I still don't understand their reasoning. People who write FREE games in Flash can just as easily release a FREE iPhone/iPad app version of their game. Either way, Apple isn't making a profit on them. If that was Apple's motivation, then they wouldn't allow free apps at all.


besides that you have to pay to get your app in the app store?
besides that the free games are good for Apple's statistics?
besides that statistics mean money?
besides those statistics are the same reason why microsoft partially allows ripped windows's? (MS can surely block those cracks and stop people from ripping windows, i see microsoft do it with their proffesional services/software, its doable, but the average joe rtard wont be able to, besides MS just releases 'fixes' every now and then so the share of illegitimate windows users doesnt get to big, same as they do with the 360)

SputnikGamer said,

not really a blow considering the same companies that havent been getting content on the iphone/ipad will continue not getting their content on them. doesn't change anything. just reminds everyone with one of those devices that these companies continue to refuse putting their content on the device.

LMAO...Seriously? This same old argument?

Are you also going to say that the media companies are refusing to put their content on HD DVD players? So people will remember and not support them?

Shadowzz said,

besides that you have to pay to get your app in the app store?
besides that the free games are good for Apple's statistics?
besides that statistics mean money?
besides those statistics are the same reason why microsoft partially allows ripped windows's? (MS can surely block those cracks and stop people from ripping windows, i see microsoft do it with their proffesional services/software, its doable, but the average joe rtard wont be able to, besides MS just releases 'fixes' every now and then so the share of illegitimate windows users doesnt get to big, same as they do with the 360)

Those who can not see the argument I use do not know how Apple runs.... So trying to debate with those who do not have the knowledge is sort of like talking to a brick wall that can mumble idiocies.

hotdog963al said,
Totally agree, I never knew so many people cared so passionately about it.
I agree too. It's not very efficient however I think the bigger point here that upsets people is that Apple is controlling what people can do with the hardware that they own. Not only that, they're blocking one of the biggest media's on the internet. Hopefully something better will come along and catch on like flash has but for today it's what we have.

I'm actually pleased with the companies using flash. Apple have been stuck up and saying that they're not using flash really shows how much hassle they want people to do just for their portable products.

I love Apple, in fact I'm using most of their products. But having no Flash on the iPhone and iPad really disappoints me. Just let users install Flash, and if they see it's slowing down or whatever reason they don't want Flash, just create an option to turn in off in the settings somewhere.

That way everyone's happy

In all honestly, why would they change? I know Apple's iPad and several Apple devices are popular but in no way they will overcome the PC usage (and therefore Flash PC usage).

Other media companies, such as Disney and CBS, have accommodated Jobs on some level
And as a member of Disney's Board of Directors, how many shares of the company does Stevie own? Yeah, no conflict of interest there.

can't be good for the makers of the world's most popular smartphone and table
No source for this statement? Well let's clear it up then. iPhone isn't the worldwide market leader and iPad isn't a fraction as popular as Apple would have us believe. How could the consumers possibly lose by the media companies refusing to be bullied by Steve Jobs? Right, they won't.

This is only good news.

C_Guy said,
Other media companies, such as Disney and CBS, have accommodated Jobs on some level
And as a member of Disney's Board of Directors, how many shares of the company does Stevie own? Yeah, no conflict of interest there.

can't be good for the makers of the world's most popular smartphone and table
No source for this statement? Well let's clear it up then. iPhone isn't the worldwide market leader and iPad isn't a fraction as popular as Apple would have us believe. How could the consumers possibly lose by the media companies refusing to be bullied by Steve Jobs? Right, they won't.

This is only good news.

+1. You beat me to it.

C_Guy said,
Other media companies, such as Disney and CBS, have accommodated Jobs on some level
And as a member of Disney's Board of Directors, how many shares of the company does Stevie own? Yeah, no conflict of interest there.

can't be good for the makers of the world's most popular smartphone and table
No source for this statement? Well let's clear it up then. iPhone isn't the worldwide market leader and iPad isn't a fraction as popular as Apple would have us believe. How could the consumers possibly lose by the media companies refusing to be bullied by Steve Jobs? Right, they won't.

This is only good news.

Jobs is on the board at Disney, which is a major reason why they changed.

C_Guy said,
Other media companies, such as Disney and CBS, have accommodated Jobs on some level
And as a member of Disney's Board of Directors, how many shares of the company does Stevie own? Yeah, no conflict of interest there.

can't be good for the makers of the world's most popular smartphone and table
No source for this statement? Well let's clear it up then. iPhone isn't the worldwide market leader and iPad isn't a fraction as popular as Apple would have us believe. How could the consumers possibly lose by the media companies refusing to be bullied by Steve Jobs? Right, they won't.

This is only good news.

So when Apple says it is blocking Flash and any content based in Flash from being on the iDevices, the anti Apple fanboys throw a hissy fit. When NBC and Time Warner say they won't put their content on iDevices, its good news? Double standard much? Apple isn't even blocking Flash content considering you can deliver the content using apps or HTML/JavaScript. These media companies are flat out saying their content won't be on an iDevice...

Edited by SputnikGamer, May 27 2010, 8:51pm :

SputnikGamer said,

So when Apple says it is blocking Flash and any content based in Flash from being on the iDevices, the anti Apple fanboys throw a hissy fit. When NBC and Time Warner say they won't put their content on iDevices, its good news? Double standard much? Apple isn't even blocking Flash content considering you can deliver the content using apps or HTML/JavaScript. These media companies are flat out saying their content won't be on an iDevice...


you always find a way to spin apple's restrictions on it's hardware in a postive light for apple.
these content owners are already using flash and not interested in changing that. it is apple who have locked them out by not allowing flash to run on their hardware.
fact of the matter is flash is the prefered delivery method for content creators on the web. it gives them the options(control) they want that alternatives such as html 5 do not.

treemonster said,

you always find a way to spin apple's restrictions on it's hardware in a postive light for apple.
these content owners are already using flash and not interested in changing that. it is apple who have locked them out by not allowing flash to run on their hardware.
fact of the matter is flash is the prefered delivery method for content creators on the web. it gives them the options(control) they want that alternatives such as html 5 do not.

apple wont let you use flash even though they can.
these companies wont bring their content to the iDevice platform even though they can.

which statement is false? didn't say apple not letting have flash was a good thing. but its funny how them blocking something is bad and someone else doing the same things is good. like i said. double standard

Edited by SputnikGamer, May 27 2010, 8:20pm :

C_Guy said,

can't be good for the makers of the world's most popular smartphone and table
No source for this statement? Well let's clear it up then. iPhone isn't the worldwide market leader

Got a source for that? I was under the impression that it was.

SputnikGamer said,

So when Apple says it is blocking Flash and any content based in Flash from being on the iDevices, the anti Apple fanboys throw a hissy fit. When NBC and Time Warner say they won't put their content on iDevices, its good news? Double standard much? Apple isn't even blocking Flash content considering you can deliver the content using apps or HTML/JavaScript. These media companies are flat out saying their content won't be on an iDevice...


all i see here is

wahhhh wahhh

Mike Brown said,

Got a source for that? I was under the impression that it was.

wasnt there an article on neowin a few weeks back that said iphone OSX has 39% market share and andriod was at like 42%? the problem in those numbers is that is refers to the OS, not the hardware. in androids case, the hardware is divided multiple ways. iphone hardware has 39% of the market share to itself and various devices running andriod have to split the 42%.

Mike Brown said,

Got a source for that? I was under the impression that it was.

http://stats.getjar.com/statistics/

Apple is not by any means a huge competitor in the "world wide" market. Just like the PC market, their share is not that much.

Apple is just a way overly hyped company that would like you to think they are much much bigger than they really are. I think the only real market the dominate is mp3 player/recreational device such as Ipod...

Edited by shakey, May 27 2010, 8:49pm :

(Spork) said,


all i see here is

wahhhh wahhh

so me pointing out how other people cry about this exact thing when it's apple doing it and then praising other companies for doing it and how its a double standard is crying? how old are you? 12?

shakey said,

http://stats.getjar.com/statistics/

Apple is not by any means a huge competitor in the "world wide" market. Just like the PC market, their share is not that much.

Apple is just a way overly hyped company that would like you to think they are much much bigger than they really are. I think the only real market the dominate is mp3 player/recreational device such as Ipod...

he didnt say apple. he said iphone. find some stats on that. stop comparing the companies. htc and nokia has how many different phones? lets see the statistics for individual hardware.

Edited by SputnikGamer, May 27 2010, 8:46pm :

SputnikGamer said,

he didnt say apple. he said iphone. find some stats on that. stop comparing the companies. htc has how many different phones? lets see the statistics for individual hardware.

Apple is the iphone as the iphone is apple..... dear imaginary god, dont start grasping for imaginary straws.....

And I'm not a library, you can find the statistics out for yourself using the correct wording in Google.

Edited by shakey, May 27 2010, 8:08pm :

SputnikGamer said,

apple wont let you use flash even though they can.
these companies wont bring their content to the iDevice platform even though they can.

which statement is false? didn't say apple not letting have flash was a good thing. but its funny how them blocking something is bad and someone else doing the same things is good. like i said. double standard


it's more like these companies are already using flash and would need to change all the content delivery to suit apple's demands vs
apple locked out use of flash on idevices in a purposeful concious move and has publicly ridiculed the format before and since.

flash is perfectly fine for the vast majority of computers and for most smartphones on teh market. but it's no good enough for apple devices.
ofc flash could be alot better. but to ask content creators to serve your whims is hilarious.

shakey said,

Apple is the iphone as the iphone is apple..... dear imaginary god, dont start grasping for imaginary straws.....

And I'm not a library, you can find the statistics out for yourself using the correct wording in Google.

you dont get what i mean apperently. those statistics are showing the total for the company. apple has one product smartphone market. lets say it sold 5. nokia has 6 products in the same market and sold 1 of each. that chart will show that nokia is the leader. as a company, it is. the comment you replied to claimed iphone was the leader. not apple. see the difference in comparison?

treemonster said,

it's more like these companies are already using flash and would need to change all the content delivery to suit apple's demands vs
apple locked out use of flash on idevices in a purposeful concious move and has publicly ridiculed the format before and since.

flash is perfectly fine for the vast majority of computers and for most smartphones on teh market. but it's no good enough for apple devices.
ofc flash could be alot better. but to ask content creators to serve your whims is hilarious.

so if microsoft started crying that their xbox games dont work on another platforms, there content doesnt work on a platform SOMEONE ELSE created, you wouldnt call them stupid? if you want your content on someone elses platform, you make your content for that platform. if you think that apple is evil from blocking flash from idevices, and not some media company blocking their content from idevices, that is a double standard no matter how you word it.

C_Guy said,
Other media companies, such as Disney and CBS, have
can't be good for the makers of the world's most popular smartphone and table

No source for this statement? Well let's clear it up then. iPhone isn't the worldwide market leader .

He said popular, not market leader, big difference....

shakey said,

Apple is the iphone as the iphone is apple..... dear imaginary god, dont start grasping for imaginary straws.....

And I'm not a library, you can find the statistics out for yourself using the correct wording in Google.


No, because those aren't all smartphones either. When you look at stats about cell phones in general, Nokia will always dominate because they sell tons of cheap dumbphones in less fortunate countries.

Trong said,

No, because those aren't all smartphones either. When you look at stats about cell phones in general, Nokia will always dominate because they sell tons of cheap dumbphones in less fortunate countries.

It's a phone. if you want to screw the data all to hell just so your precious apple is ahead, try, but in the world wide market, iphone/apple is not a big contender. Ya, apple only has the iphone, thats why they don't dominate the market. Other vendors give choice. Wow, wild concept.

SputnikGamer said,

so if microsoft started crying that their xbox games dont work on another platforms, there content doesnt work on a platform SOMEONE ELSE created, you wouldnt call them stupid? if you want your content on someone elses platform, you make your content for that platform. if you think that apple is evil from blocking flash from idevices, and not some media company blocking their content from idevices, that is a double standard no matter how you word it.

I think you're missing the point. It's not that the media creator's are blocking the i-market or i-devices. Apple's device has the physical ability to run flash, they've intentionally blocked it. It's not the media creator's that are blocking i-devices. They're not blocking anybody. Other users with PC's or Mac's or Linux or whatever all have browsers that are capable of running flash plug-ins and viewing the content. Because the i-market is closed and Apple controls every aspect of it, they control whether or not flash gets on their hardware. It's not the media companies that are blocking or restricting their content from playing on only i-devices. They would love it if their content was viewable on i-devices! The problem is that Apple won't allow their users who are using their hardware the means to view the content.

Tim Dawg said,
I think you're missing the point. It's not that the media creator's are blocking the i-market or i-devices. Apple's device has the physical ability to run flash, they've intentionally blocked it. It's not the media creator's that are blocking i-devices. They're not blocking anybody. Other users with PC's or Mac's or Linux or whatever all have browsers that are capable of running flash plug-ins and viewing the content. Because the i-market is closed and Apple controls every aspect of it, they control whether or not flash gets on their hardware. It's not the media companies that are blocking or restricting their content from playing on only i-devices. They would love it if their content was viewable on i-devices! The problem is that Apple won't allow their users who are using their hardware the means to view the content.

your missing the point. we both agree, apple blocking flash = bad. the media companies are doing the same thing though. they are saying if you want our content you have to use flash. they are both limiting access.

shakey said,

It's a phone. if you want to screw the data all to hell just so your precious apple is ahead, try, but in the world wide market, iphone/apple is not a big contender. Ya, apple only has the iphone, thats why they don't dominate the market. Other vendors give choice. Wow, wild concept.

you mean like how you are screwing the data in saying 1 million $5 phones = 1 million iphones or 1 million bb's? compare relevant data or dont bring it up at all.

SputnikGamer said,

the anti Apple fanboys throw a hissy fit.

Fanboys? No no no. See, there's Apple fan boys, then the people they p*ss off. Quite a difference.

SputnikGamer said,

apple wont let you use flash even though they can.
these companies wont bring their content to the iDevice platform even though they can.

which statement is false? didn't say apple not letting have flash was a good thing. but its funny how them blocking something is bad and someone else doing the same things is good. like i said. double standard

No apple made that choice...the media companies are using the tech they have always used.

smartin0115 said,

Fanboys? No no no. See, there's Apple fan boys, then the people they p*ss off. Quite a difference.

But there isn't. See Swakey up there. He claims apple is evil because they limit what content you can view and says media companies are good because they limit what content you can view. If apple was giving $100 dollars to everyone on neowin, Swakey would through a fit because its part of apples plan for world domination or something like that. If apple cured aids, Swakey would say its a lie.

SputnikGamer said,

So when Apple says it is blocking Flash and any content based in Flash from being on the iDevices, the anti Apple fanboys throw a hissy fit. When NBC and Time Warner say they won't put their content on iDevices, its good news? Double standard much? Apple isn't even blocking Flash content considering you can deliver the content using apps or HTML/JavaScript. These media companies are flat out saying their content won't be on an iDevice...

So basically you are saying that these companies should throw large sums of money at changing their entire business structure to pander to Apple's whims? Apple have made their bed, and now they are being forced to lie in it. Until HTML5 takes over Flash as the predominant means of delivering online content, these companies have no recourse to switch their systems over. Apple are to blame for this, nobody else.

SputnikGamer said,

your missing the point. we both agree, apple blocking flash = bad. the media companies are doing the same thing though. they are saying if you want our content you have to use flash. they are both limiting access.

To be fair, why should the other companies change around their content just because Apple doesn't want to use Flash? Why should they accommodate Apple? You're saying you'd snap your fingers tomorrow and just spend millions converting over to a different format because Apple doesn't want to use what you currently use? LOL. Look at the big picture.

SputnikGamer said,

But there isn't. See Swakey up there. He claims apple is evil because they limit what content you can view and says media companies are good because they limit what content you can view. If apple was giving $100 dollars to everyone on neowin, Swakey would through a fit because its part of apples plan for world domination or something like that. If apple cured aids, Swakey would say its a lie.

Ok... you almost had me... and im quite the the apple hater usually because of lock-outs of this kind, which basically work against the user, but to apples financial benefit. as if you werent paying enough as it is.
But I do see your point... media companies should start offering html5 where and when possible.

But that last remark I heared wahh wahh too... im slightly ashamed to admit
The rest of your argument was quite solid though I think.
Still apple being the strong-arming bully here.
It shouldnt matter how big you are... you dont tell the rest of the business world how to go about their business - you suggest and show them the way by offering it in a product... and what you def shouldnt do, is f**k with your clients, as push-overy and fanatically religiously blindly loyal they can be.
Which, as sad as it sounds, is what it feels like to me seeing my GF with her macbook and iphone... its all nice and tidy, till at one point they just leave you with no choice what so ever about something, and best thing is itll probably cost you a decent sum of money, added to what you wouldve just paid them as a customer...

metro said,
To be fair, why should the other companies change around their content just because Apple doesn't want to use Flash? Why should they accommodate Apple? You're saying you'd snap your fingers tomorrow and just spend millions converting over to a different format because Apple doesn't want to use what you currently use? LOL. Look at the big picture.

I am not saying that as that would be just as stupid. The point is that it is not Apple's responsibility to bend over for Adobe and fix their problems just as much as it is not the media's job to bend over and fix Apples. If Apple wants Flash on the iDevices, Apple will have to front most of the cost of that because Adobe blames everything on Apples hardware. If the Apple wants its media stuff on iDevices, Apple will have to front the bill for it. Apple doesn't need either of these two as their sells are still climbing. Why would Apple front those bills? Why should they? iDevices are a platform. If you are a developer, you are at the will of whoever is in charge of that platform. That's business. It isn't their responsibility to make flash games work on those devices just because thats what I want. It is my responsibility to use the tools that are supported to make my content go on their platform. Anyone that has taken any classes in software design knows that is the basic rule. You figure out what your target audience is, and you make your software work for that. If your target audience is an iPad user, that instantly means don't develop in Flash. These media companies obviously have an interest in iPad/iPhone/iTouch users. If they decide they are part of their target audience. It is on them to develop their software to work for them.

SputnikGamer said,

Anyone that has taken any classes in software design knows that is the basic rule. You figure out what your target audience is, and you make your software work for that.

Someones target audience wants flash... because thats what most media companies
use...
Its a vicious circle... but you cant strong-arm and expect everyone else to kneel and never do some of their own.
And as was said, its not that the hardware or even the software cant do it or handle it... Apple just wont let it.
Its not like adobe hasnt developed players for every other system till now.
And yes, some pitched in. It sort of IS in their best interest, as per their customers interest.
See all in all, they are doing the right thing according to you. Now who isnt?

Like I keep telling my GF and her father bout this... "Your products are lovely, Apple. Shame you look like a bunch of expensive twats though."
Can I say twats? i hope so... sorry if not. It was my replacement word...

Anywho... the media companies are just backing their customers really. theyll eventually move onto html5 or something better if it ever comes fast enough to see flash in wide use still.
The point is, theres no reason to outright DITCH it so quick. its still up to standard.
you know even windows vista hadnt disappeared over night and hasnt even since 7 came along... heck it was still sold out here. which was kind of ridiculous.
So theres no reason why a device aiming to please the web surfer should have THAT much swaying power over the content providers.

shakey said,

It's a phone. if you want to screw the data all to hell just so your precious apple is ahead, try, but in the world wide market, iphone/apple is not a big contender. Ya, apple only has the iphone, thats why they don't dominate the market. Other vendors give choice. Wow, wild concept.

Yeah, my precious Apple... I don't even own a single Apple product. In fact, I'm totally against Apple's approach with their devices. I own a Zune HD and am planning on buying an Android handset. I'm just here to make sure they you don't mislead people by providing false arguments.

SputnikGamer said,

apple wont let you use flash even though they can.
these companies wont bring their content to the iDevice platform even though they can.

which statement is false? didn't say apple not letting have flash was a good thing. but its funny how them blocking something is bad and someone else doing the same things is good. like i said. double standard


your an rtard, we life in a democratic society.. don't we?
where the majority sets the standard, wait a minute, isnt the majority using and supporting flash?

even tho flash is a little resource hogging (nowadays with everyone running dual cores and up, its not even a problem), a bit buggy and what not... you come with a better solution.

if microsoft blocks out flash entirely from their products, wanna bet you bitch and moan like a little kid(just like anyone who picks Apple's side on this ~.~)

SputnikGamer said,

apple wont let you use flash even though they can.
these companies wont bring their content to the iDevice platform even though they can.

which statement is false? didn't say apple not letting have flash was a good thing. but its funny how them blocking something is bad and someone else doing the same things is good. like i said. double standard

This is an oversimplification of the situation. The argument is not whether one of the parties can or can't do something, it's about doing extra work to support something that doesn't want to use the format that you've already provided.

These companies previously created their websites and videos using Flash and solely Flash. Everyone could access the videos before. Now Apple coming in with a browser that can't watch videos does not mean that they "blocked" Apple at all. If anything, Apple blocked themselves out. It's like saying something is blocking your way even though you can easily walk around it.

Should companies be forced to support every format for every browser in case they don't have a Flash plug-in? Hell no.

Edited by Trong, May 28 2010, 5:37am :

Shadowzz said,

your an rtard, we life in a democratic society.. don't we?
where the majority sets the standard, wait a minute, isnt the majority using and supporting flash?

even tho flash is a little resource hogging (nowadays with everyone running dual cores and up, its not even a problem), a bit buggy and what not... you come with a better solution.

if microsoft blocks out flash entirely from their products, wanna bet you bitch and moan like a little kid(just like anyone who picks Apple's side on this ~.~)

if microsoft did it id be happy. the company i work for is having major headaches because of flash. right now the industry standard for making a SCO is using flash. SCO's are a very basic standard that are really easy to work with... in everything but flash. no version of flash runs the things the same way and lately every update of the flash player has completely broken 95% of the SCO's we have created over the years. Instead of bitching and complaining that adobe needs to stop the bs, we are making a new SCO's that are no longer limited by flash and adobes bs. The first one we are creating is jQuery. The second is silverlight. Unlike flash, everytime jQuery and silverlight get updated, old files dont go to hell. These companies that are complaining now don't even have a real complaint. They are using a flash file to play video. They don't have to spend 100's of hours and millions of dollars to convert anything at all. All they have to do is create a player the way Youtube did. It's not that hard. Sorry. I will never feel sorry for these lazy media corporations when their claim is it would take to much to get their media on the iPad/iPhone when it would take less than a week with 2 or 3 people working on it. If they want on someone elses platform, they have to obey the rules of that platform.

Do you even know what it democratic society even means? It means majority rules, minority rights. Apple is the minority. Apple has the right to do with its property what it pleases. Even when you buy the hardware, Apple still owns the device. Read the terms of use. You are basically leasing the devices. If you didn't realize that at the time of purchase, your own fault.

SputnikGamer said,

if microsoft did it id be happy. the company i work for is having major headaches because of flash. right now the industry standard for making a SCO is using flash. SCO's are a very basic standard that are really easy to work with... in everything but flash. no version of flash runs the things the same way and lately every update of the flash player has completely broken 95% of the SCO's we have created over the years. Instead of bitching and complaining that adobe needs to stop the bs, we are making a new SCO's that are no longer limited by flash and adobes bs. The first one we are creating is jQuery. The second is silverlight. Unlike flash, everytime jQuery and silverlight get updated, old files dont go to hell. These companies that are complaining now don't even have a real complaint. They are using a flash file to play video. They don't have to spend 100's of hours and millions of dollars to convert anything at all. All they have to do is create a player the way Youtube did. It's not that hard. Sorry. I will never feel sorry for these lazy media corporations when their claim is it would take to much to get their media on the iPad/iPhone when it would take less than a week with 2 or 3 people working on it. If they want on someone elses platform, they have to obey the rules of that platform.

Do you even know what it democratic society even means? It means majority rules, minority rights. Apple is the minority. Apple has the right to do with its property what it pleases. Even when you buy the hardware, Apple still owns the device. Read the terms of use. You are basically leasing the devices. If you didn't realize that at the time of purchase, your own fault.

You do realize that it's taken Youtube months to get to where they are right now with the video player? It even lost it's full screen functionality again. And the last thing these companies want is to enable quick and easy free downloading of their content.

Edited by Trong, May 28 2010, 5:00am :

Trong said,

You do realize that it's taken Youtube months to get to where they are right now with the video player? It even lost it's full screen functionality again. And the last thing these companies want is to enable quick and easy free downloading of their content.

you mean the way it is on flash? also, the media companies that are complaining could do exactly what everyone else did. make an app. it doesnt take long at all. its so easy that even fox news was able to figure it out and thats saying something.

SputnikGamer said,

apple wont let you use flash even though they can.
these companies wont bring their content to the iDevice platform even though they can.

which statement is false? didn't say apple not letting have flash was a good thing. but its funny how them blocking something is bad and someone else doing the same things is good. like i said. double standard

Last time I checked, the media companies arent blocking anything! apple can just support flash. Those companies are not obligated to create apps to accomodate a small market.

But I love how you apple fanboys love spinning everything in apples favour.

SputnikGamer said,

If they want on someone elses platform, they have to obey the rules of that platform.

Apple is the minority. Apple has the right to do with its property what it pleases. Even when you buy the hardware, Apple still owns the device. Read the terms of use. You are basically leasing the devices. If you didn't realize that at the time of purchase, your own fault.

Again, why should the content providers kneel to apples every call just cause it decided it wont even give its consumers the option of running flash? esp if its a minority as you say... which it hardly is these days im afraid. Alot of this content isnt even open to the whole world, just to the US. and still, Apple is being pig headed about something that is otherwise supposed to be rather trivial to adapt to the given system.

And thanks for making it painfully obvious why one in a sane democratic mind-set shouldnt even consider to buy an apple product... pfft... "Even when you buy something, Apple still owns it"... That barely makes sense as a sentence and yet its true.
Its quite sad.

SputnikGamer said,

So when Apple says it is blocking Flash and any content based in Flash from being on the iDevices, the anti Apple fanboys throw a hissy fit. When NBC and Time Warner say they won't put their content on iDevices, its good news? Double standard much? Apple isn't even blocking Flash content considering you can deliver the content using apps or HTML/JavaScript. These media companies are flat out saying their content won't be on an iDevice...


Double standard? no, it's called Payback is a bitch!

chisss said,

Double standard? no, it's called Payback is a bitch!

The double standard is not from NBC and Time Warner. Its from neowin users that say apple is evil for not bring certain content to the iDevice and then turning around saying NBC and Time Warner are not for not bringing certain content to the iDevice.

SputnikGamer said,

you mean the way it is on flash? also, the media companies that are complaining could do exactly what everyone else did. make an app. it doesnt take long at all. its so easy that even fox news was able to figure it out and thats saying something.

No, I'm talking about the HTML5 player. Either way, blocking yourself out from something is not the same as someone else blocking you from coming in.

If I had built some strange build of Linux that neither supported Flash nor any other web standard for video at this moment, should these companies be forced to do extra work to make sure I get my content? Would these companies then be considered "blocking" me? Or is it my own fault for fully understanding how the content was provided and blatantly disregarding existing content distribution methods?

btw, this whole conversation is about switching to HTML5, not creating an app.

Edited by Trong, May 28 2010, 3:47pm :

SputnikGamer said,

The double standard is not from NBC and Time Warner. Its from neowin users that say apple is evil for not bring certain content to the iDevice and then turning around saying NBC and Time Warner are not for not bringing certain content to the iDevice.

It's not NBC or TIme Warners Issue. They didn't say, we are only going to do flash just so when apple decides to screw over their customers with no flash, they can't view our content, mwahahha. Not at all, wtf is up with your logic, really?
Apple went ahead and said, SCREW THE INTERNET AND OUR CUSTOMERS, we want you to not be able to view flash because of blah blah blah stupid pointless reasons, and made it impossible for you to use flash. The content providers had everything there for everyone to view, using the COMMON STANDARD that most other sites use, ala FLASH.
I love how much you are blinded by apple to even get the point. Instead, you throw it at the companies who already had their infrastructure built because they wont rebuild their whole design to just fit 1 company that gave them the middle finger on purpose..... I'm done.
I'm far from any fanboy of anything. I just really really hate apple because they are the worst company to be a consumer of. Period. No fanboyism, just logical sense on how a customer should be treated.

briangw said,
hmmm, I wonder if Apple will eventually bite...
I think you'll see Adobe really make Flash shine again. More focus on being able to run decently on both lower powered computer and mobile devices, and then Apple will adopt it.

cybertimber2008 said,
I think you'll see Adobe really make Flash shine again. More focus on being able to run decently on both lower powered computer and mobile devices, and then Apple will adopt it.

Yep. People are angry with Apple for not giving Adobe a chance, and have been since the iPhone was first released. Adobe is just now reaching beta status with an Android plug-in and probably still has some more work to do until it's really polished.

Apple has said from the beginning that they weren't closed to the idea of flash in the browser, it was just that Adobe hadn't yet demonstrated a version good enough version of flash for a mobile device.

Adobe has to step up and demonstrate to Apple that they can really deliver.

(Also, this whole issue of flash in the browser is completely separate from the issue of cross-compiled flash apps in the app store)

Edited by Stetson, May 27 2010, 8:46pm :

cybertimber2008 said,
I think you'll see Adobe really make Flash shine again. More focus on being able to run decently on both lower powered computer and mobile devices, and then Apple will adopt it.

Really? Would Jobs ever go back on all the bull**** he said?

Frylock86 said,
Really? Would Jobs ever go back on all the bull**** he said?

Why would be have to go back? up until the release of 10.1 (which btw hasn't been released yet) he was right; he could easily claim that his assessment is based on what Adobe is shipping now and not what they promise to ship in the future. Him stating that 10.1 has stepped up in quality is hardly a back step what he originally said.

Frylock86 said,

Really? Would Jobs ever go back on all the bull**** he said?

Apple's only arguments against a flash plug-in in the browser so far have been:

1) Performance
2) Battery life

Everything else was against using flash as a middle-layer for native app development, which is a separate issue.

If Adobe can eventually prove that 1) and 2) are no longer issues, perhaps by using their Android plugin, they will be in a much better position with Apple.

People have been criticizing Apple for not allowing flash, but Adobe still has released a final version of their plugin for Android.

Apple understandably doesn't want to be Adobe's test bed for beta software.

[resume Apple bashing here]

Edited by Stetson, May 28 2010, 5:31am :