Yet another source says the Start button is returning in Windows 8.1


Windows 8 users can currently bring back the Start button with third-party apps such as Start 8, seen above.

Rumors circulating for the past week indicate Microsoft is preparing to bring back the Start button in Windows 8.1, and now yet another report corroborates those claims.

Unnamed sources inside Microsoft allegedly told The Verge that the Start button will return in the new Microsoft operating system, although the Start menu will not be returning along with it. Instead, the button will redirect users to the Start screen, similar to how the physical Start button on a keyboard currently works for computers running windows 8. The button reportedly looks "near-identical to the existing Windows flag used in the Charm bar."

Microsoft executives reportedly told the Windows development team to bring back the Start button, overruling the team's decision to keep the button out of the next Windows operating system.  Currently, Windows 8 users wishing to bring back the Start button have to use third-party apps such as Start 8, seen at top.

In addition to bringing back the Start button, Microsoft may be considering including a boot-to-desktop feature in Windows 8.1. That feature may merely return for a "kiosk mode" that would be used in stores and public locations. A leaked screenshot of kiosk mode shows Windows 8-powered devices can automatically launch an app when a user logs in.

Source: The Verge | Image via Stardock

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Windows 8 sucks.

They've increased the speed of the killing of Aero. They could leave Aero for people who have powerful computers and a SSD instead of a simplified example to make aero matte style for those with slower machines, and a hdd and everyone would be happy.
Already, many wrote that they could make separate windows for their tablets and PC, but they just do not care for classic PC and spat in his face.
Not only that, there is no start menu, so there are no Aero, no way to disable the Metro for those to whom it is not necessary. There is no way to disable hot corners.
They let apps running in full screen mode only and no more windowed like before.
So even if they return the Start menu (which is unlikely) they will not refund Aero and will not give an option to disable the hot corners. Yet another disadvantage of this sludge - is the lack of classic games by default, I have to go into the store and download theirs ****ing card. Which are also not run in desktop mode.
Windows 8 = Not improved, it's Windows 7 that is brutally chopped and damaged Windows OS for housewives and tablets. Therefore, the less people will install this ****, the more it comes to Microsoft that they screwed up 8.1. The fact that the weather will not make it for sure, but maybe something will change in 9.

This would make perfect sense.

In Windows XP Microsoft introduced visual styles and the Luna theme but allowed the opportunity to disable visual styles and revert to Classic as late as Windows 7.

They did the same with the newer XP-style Start menu that they evolved in Vista and 7, in XP and Vista you could toggle back to the classic menu.

This is the first time they've changed the UI majorly without providing a fallback that I can think of (even Windows 95 included Program Manager!!).

Of course there's the ribbon in Office which you had to go with - introduced right when Steven Sinofsky was head of that division.

Start Button. Look at your keyboard next to the space bar. A REAL BUTTON, lol. Wouldn't be surprised, seeing how they're also throwing search boxes everywhere even though there is the Search Charm. Maybe a better tutorial on how to use Windows instead of just telling us to swipe the edges and go to corners to find things. A little intro video or something and a Modern UI app on how to use Windows 8 would probably help with adoption.

anybody reading his comment please consider that if your going to have to LEARN to use windows 8 you may want to exercise your options and go to another platform such as buying an Apple computer instead. Considering you are forced into change it may be an appropriate time to try something else. Business's can be held responsible by using your power. Your money.

"Windows 8 adoption is worse than Windows Vista, and getting worse. What should we do?"

"IT NEEDS A BUTTON!!"

Microsoft is hilarious.

the beauty of start menu (or its search part), its allow me to observe other part of the screen, while looking for program that i wish to run.

Thats would not possible if start button, simply displaying the whole full-screen start-screen.

I wonder if they bought the code snippet from Stardock!

Start8 really is nice. Very fast, feature complete (as far as I can tell). Visually, I would not mind if it could display the full circle of the round Windows logo, when using a small taskbar. As it is it does not draw the piece above the taskbar border, so I use the Win 8 flag like the charms bar tho the new logo is ugly.

TsarNikky said,
Windows-8 for tablets. Windows-7 for laptops and desktops. Its really that simple, simply stated.
Only problem is, Microsoft is pushing hard for this touch interface in Windows 8 hard on laptops and desktops.

MS still doesn't get it. So we are not getting start menu back but a start button which does not do anything special. MS listen majority of people, who use computer more than simply playing cut the rope, need their start menu back. What is so difficult for you people to understand. Simply putting different skin on pig will not make it a horse. Don't listen some desktop haters on neowin. They are not your well wishers but encouraging you to keep heading corporate suicidal path. Listen what your business customers and majority of users telling you.

Auditor said,
MS still doesn't get it. So we are not getting start menu back but a start button which does not do anything special. MS listen majority of people, who use computer more than simply playing cut the rope, need their start menu back. What is so difficult for you people to understand. Simply putting different skin on pig will not make it a horse. Don't listen some desktop haters on neowin. They are not your well wishers but encouraging you to keep heading corporate suicidal path. Listen what your business customers and majority of users telling you.

Microsoft made a wise and logical decision. The start menu largely lost it's usefullness with Vista. The new startscreen is much better and much quicker to operate to launch programs, it's main function. And this from someone who spends 99% of his time on the desktop. I don't play cut the Rope !

sjaak327 said,

Microsoft made a wise and logical decision. The start menu largely lost it's usefullness with Vista. The new startscreen is much better and much quicker to operate to launch programs, it's main function. And this from someone who spends 99% of his time on the desktop. I don't play cut the Rope !

So it lost its usefulness with you so that means everyone right? I still don't see theses claims that launching programs on the start screen is faster than a start menu. The start screen still transitions its ugly skin into desktop mode when launching a program. It is not any faster. If anything, its a pain in the rear end.

yup
steering a ship on behalf of ALL people everywhere is touchy business especially when one guy decides that YOUR start menu is no longer useful and deletes it.
I have no doubt most people would have a different opinion if we changed the subject. People (ALL OF US) do not like having the rug pulled out from under us and change forced on us that is at best subjective <- keyword here.

Simen Mangseth said,
I don't want a ****ing start button. So unnecessary. Stop whining, folks.

So you do not want it therefore others, who disagree should stop "whining"? Who are you? Le Roi
Soleil and his Après moi le déluge ? You do not like it? Do not use it and stop whining. What is wrong with the concept of choice nowadays?

Simen Mangseth said,
I don't want a ****ing start button. So unnecessary. Stop whining, folks.

Well if MS were smart you could turn it off and I could turn it on - we're both happy and MS would now have my money

mikeyjames said,

Well if MS were smart you could turn it off and I could turn it on - we're both happy and MS would now have my money

Exactly! In my field of work, I deal with hundreds almost thousands of clients a day, yes a day. I'm in government. Anyway, Microsoft would gain so many customers if a couple of choices were present.

Clearly, someone who plays games on their tablet. Those of us with serious work to do on non touch-centric devices need the Start button and Start Menu.

good now the next thing they should listen to, is the ability to have multiple apps, ability to minimize and maximize apps.. its called windows afterall...

Hey all,

It really just comes down to common bloody sense. Some people like the new version some like the old.

An intelligent way to have handled it would have been to have the W7 style start menu and then various levels of choice that gradually move towards the new way via user options.

It really is basic stuff - you get people on side by offering choices. Maybe the new way is better but people don't like being forced into change and will generally hate something they may have eventually learned to use over time.

MS have really been pulling off some stupid stuff lately - simply feeling they know what the consumer needs and the consumer will do as they say. Seen in with W8 and WP8.

Maybe they need to hire some common people to head development departments and get a proper feel for what the consumer wants. You don't have to be a tech genius to manage people.

Mick

I think most people who don't like Windows 8 are currently still on 7. However, Windows 7 won't be supported for ever and will stop getting major updates like IE versions as soon as 2015.

If you're looking for a supported place to run Windows applications in the future, eventually Windows 8 and its successors are going to be it. Though with the rise of web apps and the success of iOS and Android, Windows compatibility is going to be less and less important in future unless Microsoft succeeds in making Windows 8 onwards truly compelling.

Because we get family and friends who have no choice when buying a desktop or laptop, only Windows 8. Then we get a phone call about how much Windows 8 sucks, please help. Windows 8 does make for some good water cooler conversations at work. The hate for OS is unprecedented.

I have stayed with windows 7.
Some people have moved to windows 8 because of new improvements etc
Some people have complaints and still use it and they could be on your side yet your picking a fight with them ? (your own team mates)
Upgrading is inevitable. No one can safely stay with an old version of windows, sooner or later we need to update etc

Why do you feel the need to tell people what they can or should do ?
I find it cute how you are speaking on behalf of Microsoft
ProTip: Microsoft may not agree with some of your "then don't use it comments"

Why do 'Fanboys" insist on causing problems ?
Whats wrong with people trying to get a company to add some functionality (that existed before and was removed)
Why do i get the feeling if this was an Adobe Photshop discuession things would be different ?

We got some contrarians i think.. people want to argue endlessly how what ever Microsoft decides to do is correct regardless of what this thing in question is.

francescob said,
Why settle at only one start button when they could fill the whole taskbar with those?

Just make it one huge fullscreen Start button.

Except for tablet users, Windows-8 is a failure. It certainly is not user friendly for laptop and desktop users who do not have touch screens.

i don't like windows 8 but i think as much as it might be a failure it is equally a success.. they must have done something right if this many people have adopted it and been happy with it..
I would LOVE to see Windows 8 be more and more inclusive over time.
Lets get everyone involved and happy and satisfied rather than leaving people out on the side lines. I don't see how any draw backs of making the so called haters happy can out weigh and negatives. What i mean is wouldn't making everyone happy be worth it ?

DKAngel said,
why cant people just press the windows key or the orb key?

because average people use mouse and doesn't know keyboard shortcuts at all. that's exactly where user interface lacks optimization big time. this is one of the tweaks. next should be separating desktop mode (which is optimized for mouse) and ModernUI (which is optimized for touch)

DKAngel said,
why cant people just press the windows key or the orb key?

some of us don't want to and your question highlights the ongoing problem. Fans of windows 8 keep hammering away wit their point of view asking the same question over and over and it does not seem to matter how many times it is answered..

At it's core i believe the issue is people use their computers in different ways..

There's no need for a menu! You can't simply disable Metro when it's been ingrained into the OS. You'd break the OS. Literally.

Dot Matrix said,
There's no need for a menu! You can't simply disable Metro when it's been ingrained into the OS. You'd break the OS. Literally.
You can't disable it but you can hide it. All the Windows 7 code is still in Windows 8. Look at the program StartisBack. The developer of the program wrote it to go straight to the desktop without any hesitation. You have the full Windows 7 start menu without any special processes like Start8 runs. Microsoft could have given us a choice but they said, "oh what the hell, forget these peasants."

What? Start menu is for desktop mode and breaks nothing. Many users add it back with apps like Start8 already.
So far Microsoft has upset millions with Windows 8 removing the start menu.
At least Stardock are happy, I am sure their bank account has never had growth like this before.

Microsoft really need to listen to customers unless they want their desktop market share to have numbers similar to their mobile market share. This is all just going down in history as how to go from everyone using your product to becoming a niche.

Maybe Microsoft and the FBI hire from the same pool of researchers. Told over and over about what they are up against, but it all falls on deaf ears and they march ahead to the wrong outcomes.

Actually, only explorer. And you know there's a very simple way around that problem: Don't bed it in so deeply. It's not necessary.

Javik said,
Actually, only explorer. And you know there's a very simple way around that problem: Don't bed it in so deeply. It's not necessary.

The future of Windows is the Metro Design Language. Only makes sense to start switching everything over.

bits said,
What? Start menu is for desktop mode and breaks nothing. Many users add it back with apps like Start8 already.
So far Microsoft has upset millions with Windows 8 removing the start menu.
At least Stardock are happy, I am sure their bank account has never had growth like this before.

Microsoft really need to listen to customers unless they want their desktop market share to have numbers similar to their mobile market share. This is all just going down in history as how to go from everyone using your product to becoming a niche.

Maybe Microsoft and the FBI hire from the same pool of researchers. Told over and over about what they are up against, but it all falls on deaf ears and they march ahead to the wrong outcomes.

Using the Start Screen doesn't break "desktop mode" (whatever that is). Just because I go to Start to launch something, doesn't mean I'm stuck there.

JHBrown said,
You can't disable it but you can hide it. All the Windows 7 code is still in Windows 8. Look at the program StartisBack. The developer of the program wrote it to go straight to the desktop without any hesitation. You have the full Windows 7 start menu without any special processes like Start8 runs. Microsoft could have given us a choice but they said, "oh what the hell, forget these peasants."

worth quoting. excellent reply to DotMatrix.
JHBrown i see you have made a lot of smart and sensible comments on this topic.
Good job

JHBrown said,
You can't disable it but you can hide it. All the Windows 7 code is still in Windows 8. Look at the program StartisBack. The developer of the program wrote it to go straight to the desktop without any hesitation. You have the full Windows 7 start menu without any special processes like Start8 runs. Microsoft could have given us a choice but they said, "oh what the hell, forget these peasants."

The code is gone. Quoted from Paul Thurrott: "This is a first for Microsoft and Windows, and as I reported last summer, the firm even went to the drastic step of removing legacy Start menu code from the internals of Windows to ensure that third party developers wouldn't be able to do so either. (Developers have instead been forced to recreate these interfaces manually instead, a process that is more time- and resource-intensive.)"

Still gonna be only a half step if Microsoft only puts a start button that takes you back to the Modern/Metro UI Start screen. People have made it clear that they want a start menu and want to bypass the start screen. I do it using Stardock's Start8, but the number of programs and threads on creating your own start menu indicates that a LOT of us are not happy with Microsoft's decision to go "all in" with their united interface for desktop/tablet/phone devices.

I'm all for Microsoft changing things over time (I've no desire to go back to a desktop looking like Windows 3.1, 98 or XP) and I thought that Windows 7 was attractive enough (and functional) that I almost never used WindowBlinds or IconPackager to modify the desktop as I had earlier versions of Windows. But Windows 8 was too radical a change and I think the blowback is a reflection of users unhappiness with the product.

CSharp. said,
That's very generous of Microsoft.

of them trying to fix alienating their existing customers ?

the whole well don't use it campaign is invalid with almost all people.
most people are already using a previous version of windows when considering updating (i almost said upgrade lol)
So many people are because of an update are left hanging in the wind.
And if you wanna say that then go read the replies you guys make when telling people Windows XP is garbage and you should update.

The MS executives are halfway there in overriding the UI team on this.
However they could make the UI a lot better by replacing that team and buying Stardock.

NB I have no affiliation whatever with Stardock, except being a user of their product, but what is clear is that they have a much better understanding of what desktop users want, and how to implement it, than any of the existing MS UI people.

The existing UI designers must have costs MS a fortune in lost sales and in burned-up goodwill of the existing customer base.

They apparently think people just wanted to see a button. Microsoft reminds me of those parents who act like their listening to their kids when talking but they really just smile and nod to keep the kid happy. Having no idea what the child said or really wanted.

Yes.

Im in the "Not too bothered the start menu has been replaced" camp. Although Metro and Start Screen are useful the start menu (whether launching a menu or start screen) are embedded into peoples windows experience as is the desktop. Adding options to enable/disable it wouldn't hurt anyone.

Im binning Windows 8 until they introduce a proper and correct method to boot to the desktop. Productivity aside we use a lot of Software for kiosks (no/limited user interactivity) and have no idea to convert to Metro yet (yes im aware of the "Kiosk Mode" and I bet it wont work on the desktop or with desktop apps). The fact we can't boot the machine into Desktop Mode and launch full screen apps easily is the killer for us.

Why Metro Apps can't be windowed for PC/Desktop users is a puzzle to me.

Instant visual cue I suppose. For people unwilling to learn how to activate the hot corners, it gives them something familiar to click to launch the Start Screen.

You don't need the start menu for it to still be useful.

Microsoft are probably getting 1000s of calls a day (mainly from people over 40) in regards to where the Start menu went. Charms are bad UI design on a desktop/laptop PC.

Shouldnt matter to anyone if the old start menu/start button is added back....as long as there are options to use one or the other.

JonnyLH said,
You are, because it everyone kept with the old and not forced to new. You would of never gone to new.
The new is not always the best. This has been proven many times in history for thousands of years. Imagine what this world would be if we accepted everything from big companies?

JHBrown said,
The new is not always the best. This has been proven many times in history for thousands of years. Imagine what this world would be if we accepted everything from big companies?

We would all be using KINs.

JHBrown said,
That's all we want, an option! The Windows 8 cult believe we are living in the past by having options though.

You've posted about a dozen times to this thread already about how you have no options and choices, yet you fail to exercise the options and choices available in front of you. Why do you feel that the only relevant choices are those that Microsoft gives you?

JonnyLH said,
You are, because it everyone kept with the old and not forced to new. You would of never gone to new.

If the " new thing" will be see by users as an advantage..... they will embrace it.

JonnyLH said,
You are, because it everyone kept with the old and not forced to new. You would of never gone to new.

n o p e

ever bought a new cell phone ?

"Instead, the button will redirect users to the Start screen" - Microsoft, that is not the solution to all the complaints. Users want choice between the Start menu or Start screen (and be able to disable one or the other, or use both at the same time). Simple! It's probably just a days work to implement to be honest.

68k said,
"Instead, the button will redirect users to the Start screen" - Microsoft, that is not the solution to all the complaints. Users want choice between the Start menu or Start screen (and be able to disable one or the other, or use both at the same time). Simple! It's probably just a days work to implement to be honest.

Agreed. I'm not sure why it's such a bad thing to give the user choices.

68k said,
Simple! It's probably just a days work to implement to be honest.

And that's pretty much how feature creep goes - now we have two teams replicating each other's work for two start 'menus' (one full screen and one now). People then complain it's confusing and complicated etc etc. I'm all for adding the button back - it's easier to click on - but saying we also need the old start menu back is quite a different thing. I'd rather they carried on with the start screen and improve that further - keep it simple. The old start menu had it's problems lest we forget.


68k said,
"Instead, the button will redirect users to the Start screen" - Microsoft, that is not the solution to all the complaints. Users want choice between the Start menu or Start screen (and be able to disable one or the other, or use both at the same time). Simple! It's probably just a days work to implement to be honest.

http://i.imgur.com/DS5LsyR.jpg

Probably the best they could ever do. But, it seems they're dead set on forcing metro on us 'desktop' users.

Enable exclusive mode for either;
- Windows 8 UI only
No access to desktop, a bit like kiosk mode but with full access to everything Metro.
- Desktop only.
Ignoring the need for charms, quick switch and the other slide menus. It allows space for start button (and even start menu if need be)

Or leave exclusive mode off and use it how it is now.

saying there was problems with the old start menu doesn't make sense to me. I have had no problems i can think of and i don't recall every hearing a complaint about it once. and the point being dodged on this guys comment and replies is that it would have been sensible to have a transition from new to old for windows 8. Like maybe they get rid of it on windows 9 but saying it should have been removed for bloat reasons does not out weigh the confusion and REAL PROBLEMS created by what did in fact happen.

spoetnik said,
saying there was problems with the old start menu doesn't make sense to me. I have had no problems i can think of and i don't recall every hearing a complaint about it once. and the point being dodged on this guys comment and replies is that it would have been sensible to have a transition from new to old for windows 8. Like maybe they get rid of it on windows 9 but saying it should have been removed for bloat reasons does not out weigh the confusion and REAL PROBLEMS created by what did in fact happen.

Why not wait till Windows 10 or 11 then? Any big change to Windows will cause problems for people - better or not - especially when you have a couple of decades of users used to the way it used to work. The old start menu was horrible to navigate through with a mouse (you found the expansion/contract of folders in a tiny area good?), had hidden functionality (mysterious right clicks), didn't have good keyboard support and drag and drop wasn't that pretty either. To say they're weren't problems makes no sense to me - obviously it wasn't perfect (and neither is it's replacement I hasten to add!) and the Windows team had played around with trying to deal with having a lot of structural information in a relatively small area across a number of versions of Windows (and none of the solutions really worked that well in practice). I'm actually pro using the whole darn screen because it removes a lot of the design restrictions but i'm not convinced they've dealt with a replacement for folders adequately (particularly for desktop apps) as it's messy right now.

dangel said,

The old start menu was horrible to navigate through with a mouse (you found the expansion/contract of folders in a tiny area good?), had hidden functionality (mysterious right clicks), didn't have good keyboard support and drag and drop wasn't that pretty either. To say they're weren't problems makes no sense to me - obviously it wasn't perfect (and neither is it's replacement I hasten to add!) and the Windows team had played around with trying to deal with having a lot of structural information in a relatively small area across a number of versions of Windows (and none of the solutions really worked that well in practice). I'm actually pro using the whole darn screen because it removes a lot of the design restrictions but i'm not convinced they've dealt with a replacement for folders adequately (particularly for desktop apps) as it's messy right now.

<facepalm>

I disagree. The Start menu was great UI design. You no longer had to navigate through all these windows to launch apps and change settings (as was the case in Windows 3.1 and on the Macintosh platform at the time of (Win 95's) launch). Plus, once used, it got out of the way. I personally do like how it kept everything organized.

Okay, I understand the Start screen does the same thing as the Start menu, but I dislike how it takes up the whole screen. I prefer having windows in the background in view.

Either way, keyboard navigation in Windows is better than on any other OS I have used. You can do pretty much everything with just a keyboard - that's the way Windows was designed from the start. It's probably in the Windows User Experience Interaction Guidelines.

Right-click menus made working with a PC a lot more productive. Come on, don't you use it yourself? Do you still go through the Edit menu in Word to spell check instead of right clicking on incorrectly-spelled words? Once again, this was another killer feature at the time Windows 95 launched.

Drag and drop has improved over time. I now mostly drag and drop files into the browser (most websites I used support that), however in explorer.exe, I much prefer using keyboard shortcuts and right-click menus.

The Windows taskbar/Start menu is probably the most perfect UI design around Microsoft definitely got it right - it has received very little criticism since its launch, as has improved over time, while remaining really easy to used. Aerosnap was also a step ahead in the right direction, as is the Start screen for tablets (but not PCs/laptops). Hence, Microsoft should offer users choice.

Edited by 68k, Apr 23 2013, 11:59am :

^^ woops, there's some errors with grammar above! I'll try again:

The Windows taskbar/Start menu is an example of some of the most perfect UI design around. Microsoft definitely got it right - it's received very little criticism since its launch and has improved over time, while remaining easy to use. Everyone I know recognizes the term "Start menu". Aerosnap was also a step ahead in the right direction, as is the Start screen for tablets (but not PCs/laptops). Microsoft need to offer users choice as they did in their earlier OS's.

68k said,

<facepalm>

Facepalm? Really - I was that obtuse for you? I suggest you missed my point - let's see.

68k said,
I disagree. The Start menu was great UI design. You no longer had to navigate through all these windows to launch apps and change settings (as was the case in Windows 3.1 and on the Macintosh platform at the time of (Win 95's) launch). Plus, once used, it got out of the way. I personally do like how it kept everything organized.

I didn't like some aspects of it - you've missed my point: it wasn't 'perfect' and MS experimented with some of the problems with it over the years. Rose tinted glasses syndrome I think given some of the flaws of it's replacement (and that all important element of change).

68k said,
Okay, I understand the Start screen does the same thing as the Start menu, but I dislike how it takes up the whole screen. I prefer having windows in the background in view.

Fair enough, I don't, it's not of any use to me.

68k said,
Either way, keyboard navigation in Windows is better than on any other OS I have used. You can do pretty much everything with just a keyboard - that's the way Windows was designed from the start. It's probably in the Windows User Experience Interaction Guidelines.

Way to go off track - I didn't mention other OS' - I'm only talking about the start menu itself and I didn't deny you *could* use the keyboard I just pointed out it wasn't that pretty in places (in the start menu).

68k said,
Right-click menus made working with a PC a lot more productive. Come on, don't you use it yourself? Do you still go through the Edit menu in Word to spell check instead of right clicking on incorrectly-spelled words? Once again, this was another killer feature at the time Windows 95 launched.

Again, you miss the point - it's really an answer to people who complain about hidden functionality in it's replacement when the same was true in the start menu of old. I mainly use the keyboard - i'm a developer. In that sense the start menu and screen are 99% the same for me 99% of the time since I use instant search rather than navigate through either (unless I can't remember what it is I want in which case both present problems in finding the darn thing..).

68k said,
Drag and drop has improved over time. I now mostly drag and drop files into the browser (most websites I used support that), however in explorer.exe, I much prefer using keyboard shortcuts and right-click menus.

I'm not talking about anything other that the start menu - on an Windows 7 PC with stacks of software installed try drag and dropping within the start menu - it's painful as you force deathly slow scrolling to get to items that can't fit into it's restricted area or wait for folders to auto open all the while you death grip the mouse. It's not perfect is it? That's at best a clunky workaround.

68k said,
The Windows taskbar/Start menu is probably the most perfect UI design around Microsoft definitely got it right - it has received very little criticism since its launch, as has improved over time, while remaining really easy to used. Aerosnap was also a step ahead in the right direction, as is the Start screen for tablets (but not PCs/laptops). Hence, Microsoft should offer users choice.

Oh good grief - every version of it has seen criticism and complaint. Any UI change does - better or not. Remember XP's new menu? Had loads more on it but stacks of users set it to look like the win2k menu simple because it was different. Heck the new taskbar in 7 (to me an instant win) was derided by many for the same reason. UI change is controversial - in Windows it's flaming torches and pitchforks time given the influence of the product and the size of it's user base.

Let me be crystal clear - I don't like all that is MUI and I don't think the start screen is perfect - my disagreement is with the notion that what it replaced was 'perfect' (i.e. with no more room for possible improvement) because that's patently illogical. However I also don't support the notion that we should revive what is now dead and gone rather than try and improve on it's replacement (which does have some up sides at least for some of us). I think MS have a (very) long way to go with all of this - whether what's here now is something you can cope with (or simply) replace is a personal choice. For me it's not that big of an issue for what is principally a glorified program launcher that takes up less than 1% of my working day. YMMV - and that's fine - you have choices..

[forget the grammar problems it doesn't colour my view of your post at all ]

dangel said,

..The old start menu was horrible to navigate through..

My reply was simply a response to your matter of fact statement. and i gotta tell you again that i don't see the problem.. Just because you yourself have problems with old start menu does not mean it is an obvious problem for most people and by the way if it was why did they wait till 2013 to change it ? I was told earlier that the start menu is 20 years old and archaic so tell me why we used something so bad and so dysfunctional for 20 years ?
Your entitled to your opinion but if your intention is to speak for the majority of people out there then i have to disagree, just like with changes in windows 8.. some people decided that they will change things for everyone regardless of what "everyone" ACTUALLY thinks. Also having a full screen start menu is good ? lol sure if you say so..
And you discussed the usage of the start menu and once again as always i can tell clearly from what you wrote you are implying people do things your way.. people use things in different ways and i can not stress this enough like a broken record. For example i rarely see my start menu on windows 7 because i use a variety of other methods instead. i pretty much don't use it at all actually but it really ticks me off that people like you are gonna lecture me on how good it is or isn't based on HOW YOU USE YOUR COMPUTER. I couldn't care less how you use your machine and it has no bearing on what i do. but when Microsoft decides to delete things because a couple people think just like you over in Redmond i get a bit ticked off.Microsoft is not making a product specialized for specific people it is an OS made for a broad range of people including home users and business so tailoring their whole operating system for a specific group of loud fan boys is utterly ridiculous

spoetnik said,

My reply was simply a response to your matter of fact statement. and i gotta tell you again that i don't see the problem.. Just because you yourself have problems with old start menu does not mean it is an obvious problem for most people and by the way if it was why did they wait till 2013 to change it ? I was told earlier that the start menu is 20 years old and archaic so tell me why we used something so bad and so dysfunctional for 20 years ?
Your entitled to your opinion but if your intention is to speak for the majority of people out there then i have to disagree, just like with changes in windows 8.. some people decided that they will change things for everyone regardless of what "everyone" ACTUALLY thinks. Also having a full screen start menu is good ? lol sure if you say so..
And you discussed the usage of the start menu and once again as always i can tell clearly from what you wrote you are implying people do things your way.. people use things in different ways and i can not stress this enough like a broken record. For example i rarely see my start menu on windows 7 because i use a variety of other methods instead. i pretty much don't use it at all actually but it really ticks me off that people like you are gonna lecture me on how good it is or isn't based on HOW YOU USE YOUR COMPUTER. I couldn't care less how you use your machine and it has no bearing on what i do. but when Microsoft decides to delete things because a couple people think just like you over in Redmond i get a bit ticked off.Microsoft is not making a product specialized for specific people it is an OS made for a broad range of people including home users and business so tailoring their whole operating system for a specific group of loud fan boys is utterly ridiculous

It's hilarious that people can be so black and white about things - in your mind i've either got to love the start menu or the start screen - there is no inbetween. You obviously didn't read and/or comprehend what I said - but the very fact I pointed out imperfections in the start menu of old makes me a 'fanboy'. Really could care less about ad hominem attacks versus actually discussing the issue - especially when my reply directly to you was nothing of the sort. Sigh.

Doesn't matter to me as long as I can disable it somehow. There's like 4 ways to access the start screen as is. One more won't make any difference to me.

This is what I don't understand. Why should you have the right to disable the start button but the majority of users have no right to turn off that nonsense called the start screen. Why can't I disable those annoying hot corners?

You can do all those things. No one is stopping you. I have the ability to add back the start button, start menu, and disable hot corners in Windows 8 right this second. Like I said, Microsoft adding a first party way to do this adds absolutely nothing to the operating system's capabilities as they stand today.

The whole saga is beyond silly as far as I'm concerned. And it doesn't shed a good light on the average Windows user, which apparently needs the visual clue instead of simply using the hidden one now !

How about it doesn't shed a good light on Microsoft and their vision for this operating system. Millions of people can't be wrong right? The fact is, they need to tweak Windows 8 for the desktop user. They can do whatever touch nonsense on their tablet and phone.

How are you supposed to know it's there if it doesn't show you?

They should enable it at start and then give us options to disable those visual clues if necessary.

What a silly attitude. It's a computer OS, it should be functional and to your point, customizable to suit your tastes and as well as others needs on any level. It's flat out annoying, clunky and unattractive in many respects, but if it had better functionality, the others could be dismissed more easily. Microsoft made a mistake that only they could make and get away with, all users including fanboys like you will appreciate the upcoming changes because they make sense.

Millions of people, on a 1,5billion userbase, is still a big minority.

Remember this, if in the 90s the internet was as loud, popular and part of people's life as it is today.
Windows 95 would've gotten the same ridiculous treatment Windows 8 is getting today!

Tpiom said,
How are you supposed to know it's there if it doesn't show you?

They should enable it at start and then give us options to disable those visual clues if necessary.

But... there's a tutorial when the computer first boots. And it explains that the bottom left corner is for the Start Screen.... it also explains the charms bar and everything else.

Do people just hit skip and not pay attention to these?

Hahaiah said,
It's a computer OS, it should be functional and to your point, customizable to suit your tastes and as well as others needs on any level.

Exactly: It's an operating system, built for the purpose of installing other software to modify and augment the capabilities of your computer. You can install dozens of free utilities today that address every single complaint people have about Windows 8. This has been the case for months, and some were available the day Windows 8 was released.

ModernMech said,

Exactly: It's an operating system, built for the purpose of installing other software to modify and augment the capabilities of your computer. You can install dozens of free utilities today that address every single complaint people have about Windows 8. This has been the case for months, and some were available the day Windows 8 was released.

Don't people usually see this as a selling point for Android?

ModernMech said,

Exactly: It's an operating system, built for the purpose of installing other software to modify and augment the capabilities of your computer. You can install dozens of free utilities today that address every single complaint people have about Windows 8. This has been the case for months, and some were available the day Windows 8 was released.

Which would be fine if it were $29 or less. For the kind of money Microsoft enjoys charging, certain things are expected to be included and rightly so. It's great some people like it, but the OS must serve hundreds of millions of other users, of all types, forcing the issue almost always fails for this is no exception. A new version of windows shouldn't require workarounds or MORE steps for the same things we're already used to. It's ridiculous people still try to argue this when even Microsoft has conceded and it changing. Their older OS are their biggest competitor and if not for OEM installs, W8 would be H8 even more.

Yes, the more and more that Microsoft screws around with its OS by pandering to the touch-centric tablet users to the alienation of laptop and desktop users, Linus and iOS look better and better. They will be more than happy to adopt and adapt to the needs of former Windows users.

"But... there's a tutorial when the computer first boots. And it explains that the bottom left corner is for the Start Screen.... it also explains the charms bar and everything else.

Do people just hit skip and not pay attention to these?"

Unless the tutorial has changed recently, then all it did was show the cursor/hand been moved into the top right and the charm bar opening, 3 times in a row. It mentioned nothing about the bottom left.

MidTxWRX said,

But... there's a tutorial when the computer first boots. And it explains that the bottom left corner is for the Start Screen.... it also explains the charms bar and everything else.

Do people just hit skip and not pay attention to these?

If you need a tutorial before people can use your consumer oriented OS then you failed at designing it correctly.

Hahaiah said,
What a silly attitude. It's a computer OS, it should be functional and to your point, customizable to suit your tastes and as well as others needs on any level. It's flat out annoying, clunky and unattractive in many respects, but if it had better functionality, the others could be dismissed more easily. Microsoft made a mistake that only they could make and get away with, all users including fanboys like you will appreciate the upcoming changes because they make sense.


Ah the fanboy argument, a clear sign of weakness. It doesn't make any sense to bring the start button back, it is completely unneeded and redundant. Why waste real astate on a start button if there is one already, which shows once you hover your mouse over it. Sorry, but if people can't be bothered to remember the place where the start button has been positioned for over 20 years, they shouldn't be using a computer. More and more you see developers (not only Microsoft) moving into reducing usage of unnecessary on screen elements in favour of more real astate for content. Unfortunately we see Microsoft crumble under the pressure and some pretty clear and logical design decision being changed because people are apparently to stupid or to stuborn to learn a few new tricks. Adding search buttons into metro apps, whilst there is unified search is another such example.

That you call me a fanboy is revealing, I just happen to agree with some of the design decisions made by the Windows team, an agreement that is formed by extensive usage of the product.

moloko said,
There are two other choices for you. Linux and iOS.

Or better even...stick with Windows 7.

sjaak327 said,

That you call me a fanboy is revealing, I just happen to agree with some of the design decisions made by the Windows team, an agreement that is formed by extensive usage of the product.
--- and disliked by a large percentage of end users.

jjkusaf said,

Or better even...stick with Windows 7.

--- and disliked by a large percentage of end users.

Maybe, then maybe not, "in the field" things might be different. Our company has rolled out Windows 8 to about 20 users, most of them technical users combined with a few "average" users. Of those 20 only one (1) user opted to use a start menu utiltiy, the rest have no problems to operate the os.

Shadowzz said,
Millions of people, on a 1,5billion userbase, is still a big minority.

Remember this, if in the 90s the internet was as loud, popular and part of people's life as it is today.
Windows 95 would've gotten the same ridiculous treatment Windows 8 is getting today!

WOW i can't believe you would say that but I'm not surprised though after seeing some of your other comments. You seem pretty quick to minimize people that have problems / issues with how Windows 8 works and i think that is just sad. Would you say the same thing when genocide is going on in some country ? O well there only killing a small fraction of the Jews so...
Unbelievable attitude from the pro windows 8 crowd.
What am i suppose to think reading crap like that ? If anyone doesn't like it then they are stupid nobodies with no credibility and since there is so few of them we can simply steam roll over them at every turn ?

I don't like windows 8 but what i invasion for the operating system is some compromise. what i would like to see is a product that is inclusive and draws people in and not splits people up. the product is directed at the general population so what is wrong with trying to include everyone so people can feel apart of things ?

I really think a lot of nasty windows 8 fans simply need to grow up the commentary is often so childish i can't take it seriously.

TsarNikky said,
Yes, the more and more that Microsoft screws around with its OS by pandering to the touch-centric tablet users to the alienation of laptop and desktop users, Linus and iOS look better and better. They will be more than happy to adopt and adapt to the needs of former Windows users.

And if users require taking turorials on using what they were previously familiar with they may just opt for going with a Apple etc because if someone has to learn they may take a step back and re-evaluate their options. and if that makes sense business wise for Microsoft then uhhh ok then lol

Obry said,

If you need a tutorial before people can use your consumer oriented OS then you failed at designing it correctly.

I know plenty of people who can't even use Windows 7 or Windows XP for that matter.

What happened there?

Same thing for Mac OS X

Even worse for Linux.

At least the only learning curve for Windows 8 is how to bring up the Start Screen, How to bring up the Charms Bar, and How to switch apps.

Perfect, this will be great with multiple monitors instead of hovering to find the right spot without spilling over into the next monitor, a welcome improvement!

I so agree with you on this. I talk a lot of people through there tech issues with Windows, and simply having a target to point them to, to right click to get to some power options, matters big time. My biggest problem has always been the hide and seek. They just through the neophytes under the bus, and then spun the wheels on them by not putting a simple video tutorial on the start screen front and center.

They should also add a charms button next to the clock or something like that. Trying to get to it using a mouse on multi-monitor setup is a real pain... Even if I had a touch screen monitor I don't see myself wanting to reach across my desk to activate it...

Wow. Have you even used Windows 8 with multiple monitors? The hot corner catches the cursor, preventing it from entering the secondary screen.

tmaxxtigger said,
Perfect, this will be great with multiple monitors instead of hovering to find the right spot without spilling over into the next monitor, a welcome improvement!

Maybe, depends if they put a start menu on both sides of the task bar. Like right now, the system tray and time/date is only on one screen. Personally I think a button on both sides is a bit of a wasted space, I'd much prefer them to fix the screen selection placement of the start screen and metro apps when in use. If I have an app open already on one screen, and hit the start button why does it replace the app with the start screen? then coming back out of the start screen I'm back at the desktop rather then still showing the app. Strange considering most of the Microsoft in-house videos I saw had multiple monitors. I can only assume no one at Microsoft was using metro apps in development.

floopydoodle said,
Wow. Have you even used Windows 8 with multiple monitors? The hot corner catches the cursor, preventing it from entering the secondary screen.

I have, and still do. Windows 8 doesn't 'catch' my mouse in the corners. It's a big pain to use properly. Metro apps and start screens are all over the place when using the hot corners and start key.

What I have done instead, I move the 2nd monitor's position up just a few pixels in the display panel and that allows me to get stuck moving the cursor.

floopydoodle said,
Wow. Have you even used Windows 8 with multiple monitors? The hot corner catches the cursor, preventing it from entering the secondary screen.

All day every day and I don't know what is catching on your setup. I have 2 identical sized monitors so there's no vertical gap (if that's what you're referring to) to catch my pointer. I don't think what you're talking about actually has anything to do with Windows 8 in particular but rather how multiple monitors with different heights work on Windows in general...

What's the point in a half arsed solution?

It's as if Microsoft just "don't get" computers. The start menu, is an integral part of the start menu, and the complaints will be just as loud and long it it doesn't also make a return.