Clarification.

[hopp58902 Member]

Regarding the recent events which seemed to have lead up to the Shift project being dissolved, I want to clear up a few things. I resigned. This was after a few months of contemplating the idea and seeing alternative options. Before my resignation, I made sure to leave some documentation, seen on the wiki. I pushed to finish 3 ISOs of Shift 0.6.5, and afterwards, I resigned. Before I did so, I spoke to a few members of the Shift Linux team. I told them that I was going to resign, and they were curious as to why, and what came next for me. That brings up the topic: Did I steal them? No. I simply told them of my plan, and they volunteered to help me out - not to leave Shift. I am not responsible for the destruction of the Shift team, I am responsible for my resignation. I made this pretty clear in my conversation with Barney, but I now choose to post a snippet of that conversation.

Log

[markwolfe Veteran]

I don't think that anyone is placing blame here. I am pretty sure that even though you have left to work on your own project, that any advice and opinions you give to help Shift would be appreciated as much as my opinions are, as a contributer in a non-leadership role.

It seems that the divergence and departure was done maturely, and with mutual respect. I certainly hope there is no animosity on anybody's part, as I continue to be on good terms with everyone involved in Shift in the past. I would personally like these friendships and cooperation to continue.

[Barney T. Administrators]

I blame no one at all...... as I stated:

some of the Shift Staff has decided to move away from Neowin and develop a new version of Linux.

No problem with any of that. I applaud and appreciate all everyone has done. I am grateful to have had the experience to work with fine young men who have been committed to the project. I greatly appreciate it.

[Digitalx]

don't mean to side track or anything, but what does that mean crimson ? are you going the LFS (linux from scratch) route or your own personal one ? is it still part of shift or not ? do we carry on with the ubuntu basis do we move to helping with this or what does it mean to us the end users and supporters and casual contributors ?

[hopp58902 Member]

I've resigned from developing Shift, so you won't be seeing much of me anymore, although yes, I'll still probably help out with the process if I'm welcome. Shift will go on and you can contribute to Shift just as usual. I don't know what all the fuss is about - Shift lives! :) (just, without me).

[Manuroc]

I don't get it. If you and others are leaving the Shift project for ANOTHER linux project... well... what's the point in that? Shift is still in early development; can't everybody just improve it? Are there really huge differences of opinion in the Shift development that caused the resignation?

I think that starting another project will just dilute the quality and dedication of both Shift and the new distro.

[hopp58902 Member]

Only I am leaving.

[Mike]

I don't get it. If you and others are leaving the Shift project for ANOTHER linux project... well... what's the point in that? Shift is still in early development; can't everybody just improve it? Are there really huge differences of opinion in the Shift development that caused the resignation?

I think that starting another project will just dilute the quality and dedication of both Shift and the new distro.

if you read https://www.neowin.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=627831 you can see the reason is he wants to start a proper distro from scratch, not just a rethemed ubuntu and from what i've learnt speaking to barney about shift is that there is no way barney will allow shift to become a distro made from scratch as it is not something he personally wants to do (or know how to)

[Manuroc]

I did read that, but can't the current project still be improved? I agree that right now, I can install Ubuntu and get a nearly identical package to Shift. But maybe ideas can be exchanged to correct such a problem. I too would like a more original distro than what is currently available. Can't Shift be further improved so that it moves away from Ubuntu? I just think that two separate projects will be weaker than one unified Shift project.

[Mike]

as i said, from the impression i got off barney, he refuses to let it move off something like ubuntu and turn into a proper from scratch distro. with crimsonredmk leaving shift, it makes it obvious that the impression i get is the correct one, otherwise he would have stayed. i always said i would help with shift if it became a proper from scratch distro.

if barney accepts people want a proper from scratch distro then i believe it would make shift more attractive and stronger as i know it's not just me who didn't want to help a ubuntu-based distro

[markwolfe Veteran]

I did read that, but can't the current project still be improved? I agree that right now, I can install Ubuntu and get a nearly identical package to Shift. But maybe ideas can be exchanged to correct such a problem. I too would like a more original distro than what is currently available. Can't Shift be further improved so that it moves away from Ubuntu? I just think that two separate projects will be weaker than one unified Shift project.

The intention for the 0.x series is a learning process about building a distro, starting with changes to packages and adding in new content where applicable.

There is enough room in the Linux world to have another distro. After all, when Ubuntu was first annouced, there were cries of "oh no! We don't need another distro!" back then, too. ;)

[Manuroc]

I see. Well I'm all for a distro from scratch, however hard that may be to achieve. Ubuntu is already excellent, however, so Shift needs to stand out from it to be great. Personally I like it more than Ubuntu because it's already been "cleaned out" of all the stuff I would remove anyway. Keep up the good work on Shift!

I'll be curious to see how well Crimson's version will turn out.

[Barney T. Administrators]

if you read https://www.neowin.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=627831 i've learnt speaking to barney about shift is that there is no way barney will allow shift to become a distro made from scratch as it is not something he personally wants to do (or know how to)

This is a totally untrue statement. I have said many times (and to dev also) that we will start learning and move to our own distro when the community members as a group are ready to do so. Personally wanting to do it, or knowing how is not any part of this. Posting this is spreading total fabrications.

I wish that we can stop with this finger pointing and start fresh. There is no reason to create hard feelings here.

[Mike]

This is a totally untrue statement. I have said many times (and to dev also) that we will start learning and move to our own distro when the community members as a group are ready to do so. Personally wanting to do it, or knowing how is not any part of this. Posting this is spreading total fabrications.

I wish that we can stop with this finger pointing and start fresh. There is no reason to create hard feelings here.

it is a true statement as its *my* impression of what you're control over shift is, last time i asked about how shift was and the probability of it going to lfs i was informed there was *no* chance of it and it was staying with ubuntu. As i said the last time you mentioned the whole group reason, if i join the shift team, will you use existing art till i can produce decent graphics? after all, i'm not ready to make my own graphics.

as for not creating hard feelings, who was it who had me kicked and told the existing team not take notice of me?

i'm still at a loss as to see why shift needs starting from fresh, afaik, only 1 person of the team has left and seeing as everyone was comfortable at making shift, why can't you continue without that 1 person? or is not the case that the whole group weren't at the same level as you keep saying they need to be / are?

[4CxbqFxVnstmA Veteran]

I agree it was a bit of a shock, dev, that CrimsonRedMk's departure coincided with the cull of the whole Team. I don't know all the issues there but probably we were relying too heavily on CrimsonRedMk's expertise. If the Shift Team are ever resurrected then we will want to spread out the expertise a bit more, so that it reduces the effect of one person's departure. As far as I can gather, CrimsonRedMk is quite right when he says he is the only one who left the Team.

As for the Ubuntu as base for Shift, we decided as a Team to proceed with that. It was not Barney telling everyone to do it. We voted. We are learning how to do this and it is an easier route to start learning. Any project like this has got to have a leader to keep things from spinning out of control, but things were really quite democratic at the Shift Team (at least as far as I think they could have been).

Also, Ubuntu itself was not a 'from scratch' distro. It's come out from Debian, as you probably know. A cool chart/timeline of distros is here. And even if it is 'relatively easy' to make a distro off Ubuntu (with UCK, etc), if you like Ubuntu's features and want them, then you don't have to redo all that work and you can focus more on making your own distro work better, which is what Shift is about: taking the best that's out there and improving it.