Stallman Calls Valve Games on Linux


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This has already been covered. You're just looping back over yourself now.

The restrictions make the GPL non-free, with an illusion of freedom that is created by the imposition of external interests over the individual's freedom.

Of course I'm looping: I'm having to break the same simple concepts for you over and over when the best rebuttal you can come up with is "but distributors aren't free" and some gibberish about slavery.

Let me ask you something: won't you be by any chance one of those BSD supporters that go all angry over Linux devs that relicense BSD code, right?

And while we are at it let me ask you another question: do you think that Linux contributors are enslaved? And if so, why did they choose to contribute to Linux and not any of the different BSD variants?

<snipped for brevity>

Insightful, you should post more often :).

I just want to point out that my position on the GPL aligns with both your and Athernars. I don't like it because I don't want to impose restrictions on developers (rather than forcing the code to remain available through all it's iterations), and I see it as a vain attempt to keep the hacker ethos alive by shoving it down people's throats. Personally, I've generally used Creative Commons Attribution (i.e. do what you want, but give me credit where it's due). The free-est license of all with regard to derivative rights is obviously public domain. I was simply trying to explain how the GPL can be perceived as a free license. It uses the same definitions intellectual property as the media organisations do (i.e. copies are still the original product). Personally I see that as bad, but I see it. Other licenses that offer the developer more freedoms do not look at it this way, and consider all the original code, as part of the derived works. It's a fundamental difference that many people don't get. I don't really see what I say as being a strawman argument, but simply a different interpretation of how "software freedom" is described.

Anyway, I was never looking to start all this bickering about the intricacies of the GPL. My initial point was, that regardless of the man himself, the ideas he stands by are valid. Regardless of how socially retarded he is, the ideas behind making source code available and allowing the user to use the software however they want are noble and beneficial for the user, but make a profitable software market difficult (companies like Redhat being the exception rather than the rule), this is where most people (myself included) start distancing themselves from free software ideals, and rightly so.

I agree entirely that the guy is a bad role model for the FOSS movement, because of everything you describe, but I don't think there's anyone here that would disagree that he stands for noble ideals. The things he discuss, like the Valve implementing DRM on Linux, are concerns for free software (DRM exists solely to take freedom from the user), but again people reject FOSS ideas because of who it is that says them. If you look at the underlying point, then he's right. You don't have to agree with his views, or even listen to the guy, but as long as you know the ideas his ranting stems from, you can see where he's coming from.

Honestly I don't pay enough attention to RMS to read his preaching, simply when his discussion makes it into my new feed (like this time) exactly because of the problems you describe, but that doesn't mean that I don't listen to the general viewpoint he tries to get across. I admit that I'm not entirely a "free software forever" preacher, I take the bits of the FOSS manifesto that I like and disregard the rest.

One issue with your point though:

Anyway, I strongly disagree with Majestic or whoever it was that said that a person who is alienated by one man did not bother to learn the message.

That wasn't what I meant at all. I meant that a person who chooses not to learn about free software and what it means because of the appearance of one man is ignorant. Hate the player, not the game. People that don't want to associate themselves with free software because of the rantings of one man are needlessly limiting their options. It's also hypocritical since there are plenty of undesirable people that write proprietary software too (I know from experience), so by that logic those people shouldn't be using software at all.

Of course I'm looping: I'm having to break the same simple concepts for you over and over when the best rebuttal you can come up with is "but distributors aren't free" and some gibberish about slavery.

You keep repeating yourself and claiming I don't understand, when I've more than proven I fully understand the idea behind the GPL, I just don't agree and have proven in this thread that the GPL is a non-free license by standard definitions. (I couldn't care less about what Stallman's proprietary definitions are)

You're on the exact same level as a theist in a religion debate at this point, I can lay out all the various points about evolution and the age of the earth, or pick apart morality; but all you're ever going to do is repeat "GOD EXISTS GOD EXISTS GOD EXISTS GOD EXISTS" until I stop challenging your viewpoint.

Let me ask you something: won't you be by any chance one of those BSD supporters that go all angry over Linux devs that relicense BSD code, right?

No I'm not, but I'll answer your strawman anyway. Taking a permissively licensed work and simply re-licensing it under the GPL without any modification is pretty damn scummy.

It may certainly be perfectly permissable thanks to the freedom a permissive license grants, but it's still a disgustingly fanatical, ignorant thing to do.

But then again, that's all part of freedom isn't it? You've got to let the bad guys have access too. Just another point that proves that the GPL is non-free.

And while we are at it let me ask you another question: do you think that Linux contributors are enslaved? And if so, why did they choose to contribute to Linux and not any of the different BSD variants?

The irony of such a question is amusing. Allow me to answer your question with a question.

Why are the majority of games Windows only?

And do I think Linux contributors are enslaved? That depends on what you mean by Linux.

You keep repeating yourself and claiming I don't understand, when I've more than proven I fully understand the idea behind the GPL,

Really? I don't think so.

I just don't agree

Fair enough.

and have proven in this thread that the GPL is a non-free license by standard definitions. (I couldn't care less about what Stallman's proprietary definitions are)

As you clearly stated earlier, the reason you think that is because in your opinion "the focus is on the developers".

So you haven't provided more proof than your opinion, but still I'm not arguing the label you might want to stick on the license as I couldn't care less about that. What I've been arguing are the slavery and "illusion of freedom" gibberish.

You're on the exact same level as a theist in a religion debate at this point, I can lay out all the various points about evolution and the age of the earth, or pick apart morality; but all you're ever going to do is repeat "GOD EXISTS GOD EXISTS GOD EXISTS GOD EXISTS" until I stop challenging your viewpoint.

That's funny because the only single points you have been raising are the "but the distributors...", "slavery" and "illusion of freedom" mantra.

No I'm not, but I'll answer your strawman anyway. Taking a permissively licensed work and simply re-licensing it under the GPL without any modification is pretty damn scummy.

It may certainly be perfectly permissable thanks to the freedom a permissive license grants, but it's still a disgustingly fanatical, ignorant thing to do.

But then again, that's all part of freedom isn't it? You've got to let the bad guys have access too. Just another point that proves that the GPL is non-free.

How is it scummy when that's the whole point of the BSD and the difference that you keep bringing up as a "holier than thou" virtue?

If you don't want devs to relicense your code, why are you using a license that explicitly allows that?

The irony of such a question is amusing. Allow me to answer your question with a question.

Why are the majority of games Windows only?

And do I think Linux contributors are enslaved? That depends on what you mean by Linux.

The majority of computer games are Windows only because that's where most users play.

But I'm talking about kernel contributors anyway, so again: if GPL enslaves devs, why are they choosing to contribute to Linux and not BSD?

Meh, I'm all for open rights and whatnot but people like this guy are WAY too anal about it.

Great if something's open source and free to all but it's not a viable business model.

Agreed. Honestly. If your option is to have these games or software on your computer or not have them supported, which one would you choose? I disagree entirely with DRM installed when you play a CD as Sony did, or DRM that's there just for the sake of being there, but this is a little bit different. For starters, I believe they update this regularly so it should be less of a security risk, and for second, it's essentially policing a service.

Really? I don't think so.

You think wrong then.

As you clearly stated earlier, the reason you think that is because in your opinion "the focus is on the developers".

So you haven't provided more proof than your opinion, but still I'm not arguing the label you might want to stick on the license as I couldn't care less about that. What I've been arguing are the slavery and "illusion of freedom" gibberish.

The label I want to stick? It's not a label, it's a simple fact. Deal with it.

You've been sitting here trying to argue that the GPL counts as free software when it clearly it is not, don't try and backpedal because you know you're wrong.

That's funny because the only single points you have been raising are the "but the distributors...", "slavery" and "illusion of freedom" mantra.

I'm sorry if the truth is too much for you to handle. The cognitive dissonance must be pretty painful for you.

How is it scummy when that's the whole point of the BSD and the difference that you keep bringing up as a "holier than thou" virtue?

If you don't want devs to relicense your code, why are you using a license that explicitly allows that?

It's scummy because it's bad manners. No different than someone closing the code of a derivative.

Just because you have the right to do something, does not mean you should do it. Come on ichi, this is basic stuff here. We're talking childhood 101 here.

I may not want devs personally to relicense my code or to close the source of a derivative, but that is a consequence of embracing freedom. Are you so blind to the real definition of freedom you cannot see this?

The majority of computer games are Windows only because that's where most users play.

But I'm talking about kernel contributors anyway, so again: if GPL enslaves devs, why are they choosing to contribute to Linux and not BSD?

Congratulations on answering your own question.

You think wrong then.

:rolleyes:

The label I want to stick? It's not a label, it's a simple fact. Deal with it.

You've been sitting here trying to argue that the GPL counts as free software when it clearly it is not, don't try and backpedal because you know you're wrong.

I'll put it short and clear because you seem to be utterly confused:

-I don't care if you don't consider GPL to be a "free license". I don't agree with your opinion on that, but I take it as just that, an opinion, and that's not what I've been arguing about (since you seem to be impervious to the concept and value of software itself being free it would be pointless arguing with you anyway, it's like talking to a wall). Go back and re-read my posts.

-You are perfectly entitled to not liking the GPL. Again that's up to who's freedom you value, and since (as you stated before) your focus in on distributors and you don't see value in code itself being free, it's completely reasonable that you prefer BSD-style licenses.

-What I take issue with is all the nonsense about slavery and deception, using Stallman's level rethoric.

I'm sorry if the truth is too much for you to handle. The cognitive dissonance must be pretty painful for you.

Cute :laugh: Well, it's quite funny how you fall to the same level of bull**** rethoric as Stallman when demonizing a license you don't agree with.

It's scummy because it's bad manners. No different than someone closing the code of a derivative.

Just because you have the right to do something, does not mean you should do it. Come on ichi, this is basic stuff here. We're talking childhood 101 here.

I may not want devs personally to relicense my code or to close the source of a derivative, but that is a consequence of embracing freedom. Are you so blind to the real definition of freedom you cannot see this?

Are you so fanatic that you have to look down on everyone who doesn't agree with your own values?

What's the point of freedom if you are goint to bitch about what other people do with it? That comes as quite hypocritical, you are complaining about people doing exactly the only single thing BSD allows that GPL does not.

You can't have your cake and eat it too.

The usual argument of BSD supporters is that it doesn't matter if someone takes your source and closes it because your original source still remains free, so why do you care if someone takes a BSD source and distributes it under a license that better fits other use cases? Because that's they whole reason of re-licensing it under the GPL.

As I said above, it's ironic how your way of vilifying ideas you don't agree with turns to be so close to Stallman's :D

Congratulations on answering your own question.

Nice try at dodging it.

You would think that, say, Oracle would have released Unbreakable BSD instead of Unbreakable Linux (considering that the whole point of the distro was just running their own proprietary DB) if they felt they were being "enslaved" by the license. And by releasing a BSD OS they'd also submit their contributions to BSD and not to the Linux kernel, again if only to not be "enslaved".

You've been sitting here trying to argue that the GPL counts as free software when it clearly it is not.

By the way, I take you actually meant "free license" and not "free software", because GPL licensed code is free software by the very definition of the Free Software term.

I'll put it short and clear because you seem to be utterly confused:

-I don't care if you don't consider GPL to be a "free license". I don't agree with your opinion on that, but I take it as just that, an opinion, and that's not what I've been arguing about (since you seem to be impervious to the concept and value of software itself being free it would be pointless arguing with you anyway, it's like talking to a wall). Go back and re-read my posts.

-You are perfectly entitled to not liking the GPL. Again that's up to who's freedom you value, and since (as you stated before) your focus in on distributors and you don't see value in code itself being free, it's completely reasonable that you prefer BSD-style licenses.

-What I take issue with is all the nonsense about slavery and deception, using Stallman's level rethoric.

Sorry ichi, but it's not an opinion - it's a fact. A very simple, proven fact that I've logically explained why it can't be true. The sheer hypocracy of you claiming -I- am the brick wall, when you've done nothing to actually read and follow the thread, and have merely parroted hollow, canned responses like some sort of bot.

Stallman resorts to using his own proprietary definitions and re-definitions of words to favour his cause, his misappropriation of the term "freedom" to refer to something that is only free in his opinion is dishonest and misleading.

I have numerous times, logically gone through the flow why the restrictions makes the GPL non-free, for you to only then jump back to a previous point in time and start parroting a point that we've already discussed.

I did not start out using Stallman's own brand of rhetoric, but in the face of you being clearly not interested to follow the topic I felt it would be the better means of communicating with someone who obviously is not interested in a reasoned discussion, and merely wants everyone to accept his word verbatim.

Are you so fanatic that you have to look down on everyone who doesn't agree with your own values?

What's the point of freedom if you are goint to bitch about what other people do with it? That comes as quite hypocritical, you are complaining about people doing exactly the only single thing BSD allows that GPL does not.

You can't have your cake and eat it too.

The usual argument of BSD supporters is that it doesn't matter if someone takes your source and closes it because your original source still remains free, so why do you care if someone takes a BSD source and distributes it under a license that better fits other use cases? Because that's they whole reason of re-licensing it under the GPL.

Oh ichi, did you even bother to read the section you're replying to here? I very clearly explained it.

How large a font-size am I going to have to make the sentance where I point out the obvious disconnect between permitting something out of principal (freedom) - and having to like it? 72pt maybe?

You're basically saying to support freedom of speech, you would have to accept and agree with every possible viewpoint that results from said freedom. Do I also have to point out how absurd and impossible that would be to you?

Nice try at dodging it.

I didn't dodge it at all, but since you evidently can't see beyond your own nose I'll "break it down" for you.

Windows is the most used platform, Linux is the most used open-source kernel. Get it?

You would think that, say, Oracle would have released Unbreakable BSD instead of Unbreakable Linux (considering that the whole point of the distro was just running their own proprietary DB) if they felt they were being "enslaved" by the license. And by releasing a BSD OS they'd also submit their contributions to BSD and not to the Linux kernel, again if only to not be "enslaved".

I don't think Oracle would know sense if it slapped them in the face. Or any large multi-layered corporation packed to the brim with know-nothing managers for that matter. Hell, that lack of sense is why we're here in the first place.

He believes that software should be like human languages. Free for anyone to learn, modify or invent. If you invent a word and it gets notoriety you don't "own" that word as anyone can use it for free, they can modify it, say their modification and show others how to say your word. No royalty, no "word police" telling you that you are unauthorized to use that word without paying a license fee.

So when Steam launches on linux and it sells games and locks them behind digital rights management (you need to login to access your games after paying a license fee to play them) it goes against his principles that software should be open and free for modification and redistribution.

He is against closed source software from a fundamental freedom paradigm where by he believes all people should have access to the source code of software so that they can learn from it, modify it, improve it, fork it, redistribute it etc

I guess he could be described as the ultimate socialist I don't think in his world it is really possible to own a piece of software. I don't agree with his views, I think developers should have the choice to release open or closed software and deserve the right to decide who can and cannot use their software based on any criteria they like including a monetary one.

He's an idealist moron. I don't care what he's the 'father' of. He's an idiot. People get into this business to earn money for the most part, and they damn well should earn good money from their products. It's hard working developing top class applications and games.

OK I think this topic could do with closing or abandoning. Everyone's expressed an opinion, nobody's going to change their views, and there's no need to resort to insults.

<snip>

I'll just make one last attempt going with english 101, since logic doesn't seem to be working with you.

Free Software.

See, we have two words there: and adjective (Free) and a noun (Software). The adjective qualifies the noun.

So the Software is Free.

Did you see a Free Developer there? No, right?

And a Free Distributor? Again no.

I'll point it out again to make it clear: it's the software that's free.

Now, why is the GPL Free Software? Because software licensed under the GPL has perpetual freedom. The license itself forbids removing the "free" part from the code, so there's no way you can make GPL software "non-free".

That software won't ever get closed, so you'll be always able to run it, see and modify the code, redistribute copies to anyone, improve it and release those improvements (qualities which happen to be exactly the features that define what can be considered Free Software).

If you still can't get that then there's no point in arguing further.

I'll give you some homework though, just in case: find a formal definition (that is, not something you make up in the spot) of Free Software that disqualifies the GPL as such.

Windows is the most used platform, Linux is the most used open-source kernel. Get it?

Let's assume they are now contributing because of that (even while in some cases it doesn't matter): out of all the possible open-source projects, how comes that it was the only single one with a GPL license who attracted the most contributors and came to be the most widely used and contributed OS kernel?

Technically any software that you don't have to pay money for is free. He's just using it as a term to evangelise his own idealism, 99% of users won't give a flying feck whether they can edit the source code of the software they use or not because they simply don't know how to do it. Being Open Source isn't some magic barrier that makes software immune to being crap, it's not the holy grail of software development. It's an ideal, and like all ideals it will have it's supporters and it's detractors. Trying to strong arm people into following your own paradigms, regardless of how noble your intentions is a form of fascism, and by trying to talk Linux users into not using proprietary software he's imposing his ideals upon them.

I'll just make one last attempt going with english 101, since logic doesn't seem to be working with you.

Free Software.

See, we have two words there: and adjective (Free) and a noun (Software). The adjective qualifies the noun.

So the Software is Free.

Did you see a Free Developer there? No, right?

And a Free Distributor? Again no.

I'll point it out again to make it clear: it's the software that's free.

Now, why is the GPL Free Software? Because software licensed under the GPL has perpetual freedom. The license itself forbids removing the "free" part from the code, so there's no way you can make GPL software "non-free".

That software won't ever get closed, so you'll be always able to run it, see and modify the code, redistribute copies to anyone, improve it and release those improvements (qualities which happen to be exactly the features that define what can be considered Free Software).

If you still can't get that then there's no point in arguing further.

"Free" "Software"

"Free" as in "Freedom" not "Free Beer"

The benefit of "Free software" being you get "freedom" of action with said software.

Such actions that would be possible under the definition of "freedom" would include:

1) Using the original software freely

2) Altering the software freely

3) Redistributing the software freely

4) Redistributing your alterations freely

5) Relicensing the software freely

6) Not doing any of the above

The GPL disallows #4 and #5, the software is not "free" to be relicensed or redistributed. Therefore the software has had some of it's freedoms stripped away to further the agenda of the GPL.

Therefore the GPL is provedly not "free", as restrictions have been placed on what can be done with the software. The software is not free.

I'll give you some homework though, just in case: find a formal definition (that is, not something you make up in the spot) of Free Software that disqualifies the GPL as such.

Definition of freedom

noun

[mass noun]

1. the power or right to act, speak, or think as one wants: we do have some freedom of choice

Let's assume they are now contributing because of that (even while in some cases it doesn't matter): out of all the possible open-source projects, how comes that it was the only single one with a GPL license who attracted the most contributors and came to be the most widely used and contributed OS kernel?

How come closed-source software products became the dominant desktop operating systems despite there being alternatives that are both gratis and open-source?

I think it should be mentioned that (I'm guessing) Athernar is referring to the fact that you are required to redistribute the relevant code if you redistribute your modifications. That is another attribute of the GPL that is decidedly not in support of freedom. Furthermore a few things in regards to the kernel. Kernels have always been a fun learning exercise that people attempted and re-attempted then thrown away again, trying out new architectures as they go. Linus was one of those few that happened to desire a practical, reasonably well performing monolithic kernel. He even said so in one of the first announcement posts as I recall. This combined with his good timing and willingness to voice himself, and of course his competency was the deciding factor in the kernel's success. Not the license. Being someone that has actually managed to complete a minimal kernel project in the past I find this pretty insulting. I would imagine Linus would too.

Much of the most well known and successful free software projects were born from a desire to solve a unique problem coming from a classic hacker mindset. I guarantee you what license it was under was one of the last things on anyone's mind.

Edit: I was also going to further my point by noting that going by Ichi's logic, Hurd should have flown past linux a few times over. However since I never did involve myself with it too much (a decision I still sometimes regret because of technical interest) it could be anything, from Stallman's lack of familiarity with the architecture to him trying to get people to do it for him instead of being hands on.

"Free" "Software"

"Free" as in "Freedom" not "Free Beer"

The benefit of "Free software" being you get "freedom" of action with said software.

Because of the inherent quality of the free software being free.

Being able to relicense the software gives you more freedom, but does nothing to increase the freedom of the actual code (actually the opposite). In both cases (being able to relicense and not being able to do so) the software is free, it's the developer/distributor who gets more or less rights.

Such actions that would be possible under the definition of "freedom" would include:

1) Using the original software freely

2) Altering the software freely

3) Redistributing the software freely

4) Redistributing your alterations freely

5) Relicensing the software freely

6) Not doing any of the above

The GPL disallows #4 and #5, the software is not "free" to be relicensed or redistributed. Therefore the software has had some of it's freedoms stripped away to further the agenda of the GPL.

*sigh*

Relicensing is freedom for developers/distributors. When it comes to the actual code, being able to be dispossessed of it's freedom does quite obviously not increase it.

By they way, while you managed to use a dictionary to find "freedom" you didn't provide a formal definition of Free Software yet.

How come closed-source software products became the dominant desktop operating systems despite there being alternatives that are both gratis and open-source?

Apples and oranges. You don't see third parties running en masse to contribute code to that proprietary kernel under Microsoft's proprietary license, do you?

The point is that you wouldn't get volunteers and companies to contribute code over all these years under a license that was "enslaving" and based on deception.

This combined with his good timing and willingness to voice himself, and of course his competency was the deciding factor in the kernel's success. Not the license.

Way to miss the point: Athernar's stance on the GPL is that it enslaves developers and is based on deception over an illusion of freedom, qualities that surely wouldn't get much people to contribute.

I don't know if Linux would find that insulting. He most likely wouldn't give a damn about opinions regarding the license, but the implications about his motives for choosing it are kind of offensive.

Because of the inherent quality of the free software being free.

Being able to relicense the software gives you more freedom, but does nothing to increase the freedom of the actual code (actually the opposite). In both cases (being able to relicense and not being able to do so) the software is free, it's the developer/distributor who gets more or less rights.

It does increase the freedom of the code. As the code has more rights as to what can be done with it. Use, alteration, redistribution and relicensing are all actions that include the code.

Stop playing dumb ichi. You know you're wrong, you just don't want to admit it. Or are you going to try and claim relicensing doesn't involve the code so you don't have to admit you're wrong? :laugh:

Relicensing is freedom for developers/distributors. When it comes to the actual code, being able to be dispossessed of it's freedom does quite obviously not increase it.

By they way, while you managed to use a dictionary to find "freedom" you didn't provide a formal definition of Free Software yet.

No, relicensing is freedom for the software, the distributor/developer is not the one being relicensed.

"Free software" is not a word, it's a combination of the words "freedom" and "software", we know what software is, so I provided the definition of freedom.

Apples and oranges. You don't see third parties running en masse to contribute code to that proprietary kernel under Microsoft's proprietary license, do you?

The point is that you wouldn't get volunteers and companies to contribute code over all these years under a license that was "enslaving" and based on deception.

Duh. It's called closed-source for a reason, and I fail to see what relevance the source model is. It's popular, people use popular.

Linux is the most popular open-source kernel, people use popular.

Way to miss the point: Athernar's stance on the GPL is that it enslaves developers and is based on deception over an illusion of freedom, qualities that surely wouldn't get much people to contribute.

I don't know if Linux would find that insulting. He most likely wouldn't give a damn about opinions regarding the license, but the implications about his motives for choosing it are kind of offensive.

If it's an illusion of freedom, then they would be decieved into thinking they're contributing to something that is free then wouldn't they? Do you even know what deception means? :rolleyes:

Infact, I'm rapidly starting to believe you don't understand what a lot of the definitions being used in this discussion are, and you're just parroting Stallman himself at this point.

It does increase the freedom of the code. As the code has more rights as to what can be done with it. Use, alteration, redistribution and relicensing are all actions that include the code.

Stop playing dumb ichi. You know you're wrong, you just don't want to admit it. Or are you going to try and claim relicensing doesn't involve the code so you don't have to admit you're wrong? :laugh:

No, relicensing is freedom for the software, the distributor/developer is not the one being relicensed.

That's about as dumb as saying that passing a law that grants others the right to enslave you would make you more free.

Wait no, actually it's exactly in the same level of dumbness.

"Free software" is not a word, it's a combination of the words "freedom" and "software"

No **** sherlock. Do you know what a term is?

Still waiting for a formal definition that disqualifies the GPL.

Duh. It's called closed-source for a reason, and I fail to see what relevance the source model is. It's popular, people use popular.

Linux is the most popular open-source kernel, people use popular.

People use popular stuff, but people don't contribute to a project with an "enslaving license based on deception" all they way from a newsgroup post to being the most widely used open source kernel.

If it's an illusion of freedom, then they would be decieved into thinking they're contributing to something that is free then wouldn't they? Do you even know what deception means? :rolleyes:

Huh, sure, all the contributors (both all the volunteers and the over 800 companies) have been deceived for about 20 years :rolleyes: you should be getting a clue already about how stupid your argument is instead of trying to be funny (then again maybe you are going with the later because you already realized the former).

Do you really think IBM, Intel or HP give a flying **** about who Stallman is or anything he has to say, anyway?

Infact, I'm rapidly starting to believe you don't understand what a lot of the definitions being used in this discussion are, and you're just parroting Stallman himself at this point.

Says the guy who can't tell which noun an adjective is qualifying :/

Remember when a couple of posts above I told you there was no point in further arguing with you if you still were unable to grasp the simple concept I was breaking down for you? Well, until you go and provide the formal definition I was asking for instead of grasping at straws trying to pass your opinion as facts I won't bother replying again.

That's about as dumb as saying that passing a law that grants others the right to enslave you would make you more free.

Wait no, actually it's exactly in the same level of dumbness.

The fact you think the human slavery is anything remotely comparable to some nerds squabbling over software licensing is absolutely disgusting.

Human slavery takes away all freedoms, an individual still has freedom to refuse to use derivative closed-source software. That freedom is why the software's freedom to be relicensed takes precedence.

No **** sherlock. Do you know what a term is?

Still waiting for a formal definition that disqualifies the GPL.

And I gave you one. You have the definition for freedom, and the definition for software. Stick them together.

People use popular stuff, but people don't contribute to a project with an "enslaving license based on deception" all they way from a newsgroup post to being the most widely used open source kernel.

I find it hilarious you are still completely unable to grasp the concept of "deception".

Huh, sure, all the contributors (both all the volunteers and the over 800 companies) have been deceived for about 20 years :rolleyes: you should be getting a clue already about how stupid your argument is instead of trying to be funny (then again maybe you are going with the later because you already realized the former).

Wow. Have you ever heard of religion? You know, where people believe that there is an all-powerful being in the sky despite there being no hard evidence for over 2000 years?

Do you really think IBM, Intel or HP give a flying **** about who Stallman is or anything he has to say, anyway?

Do people care about Steve Ballmer? Considering his position at Microsoft and comments regarding Google I'd say yes.

So do people care about RMS? As the president of the FSF, I'd say yes to that too.

Remember when a couple of posts above I told you there was no point in further arguing with you if you still were unable to grasp the simple concept I was breaking down for you? Well, until you go and provide the formal definition I was asking for instead of grasping at straws trying to pass your opinion as facts I won't bother replying again.

Aw, you going to run away? Darn. :(

OK I think this topic could do with closing or abandoning. Everyone's expressed an opinion, nobody's going to change their views, and there's no need to resort to insults.

Couldn't have said it better myself, so I won't reiterate. Thread closed.

This topic is now closed to further replies.
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    • Sihoo Doro C300 Pro V2 Ergonomic Office Chair review: The Ikea of chairs by Steven Parker I've reviewed a few gaming chairs over the past three years or so and generally found them to score well in our reviews. SIHOO reached out asking if I was interested in taking a look at their flagship chair, the Doro C300 Pro V2. I never got the chance to check out its predecessor, but the V2 is described as an "Adaptive Ergonomic Chair." It became available to buy in April of this year. Let's get things rolling with a closer look at the specifications and features. Specifications Doro C300 Pro V2 Model Ergonomic Materials Mesh Back and Seat; Soft PU Coated Armrests Height adjustability 45.5 - 53 cm / 17.5" - 20.9" Seat (w+d) 52 x 43 - 47 cm / 20.5" x 16.9" - 18.5" (adjustable) Backrest 52 – 60 cm / 20.5" - 23.6" (adjustable) Lumbar support Mesh built-in (adjustable) Armrest adjustability 8D Bionic Armrests Rocking angle 105°, 120°, 135° (fixed) Neck support Mesh built-in (adjustable) Net weight 27.3 kg / 59.64 lbs Weight support 150 kg / 330 lbs Colors Black, White Warranty 5 years (upon registering) Price $499.99, $539.99 Introduction At first glance, it looks like a chair that in another life wants to be a Herman Miller; It certainly looks like my Aeron Remastered, but the Doro C300 Pro V2 has quite a few more features and costs quite a bit less. SIHOO says that it is made up of a "DynaCore" system that tracks your movement and synchronizes the headrest, backrest, lumbar support, and armrests as you shift, twist, or recline. They also say that the "SyncroFlex Backrest" molds to your spine, which kind of describes how the mesh fabric works in most ergonomic chairs, but anyway. Below are the meat and potatoes measurements for the chair. Here is the same tech sheet, but in inches. Durability I would be remiss to not talk about the various durability testing this chair underwent before coming to market, as this is claimed on the product page. First of all, the chair is BIFMA-, SGS-, and TÜV-certified. As for durability, the tests undergone were: 100,000 Castor cycles tested 120,000 Armrest cycles tested 120,000 Recline cycles tested 120,000 Gas lift cycles tested 60,000 Armrest durability cycles tested 120,000 Rotation cycles tested Nothing about weights testing, though. Now that's all disclosed, now onto my own personal findings. Assembly The Doro C300 Pro V2 came in two large boxes (1) (2), and everything was packed very well, protecting the different parts of the chair. In the box, there is a folded sheet that explains the 12 steps to assemble it; they are: Remove the bottom cover on the aluminum base; Insert the five legs into the aluminum base and use ten screws to fasten them; Insert the castors into the legs; Replace the bottom cover on the bottom of the aluminum base; Place the Class 4 Hydraulics gas cylinder into the aluminum base; Screw the bottom part of the arm rests, taking care of the orientation using two screws on each side; Use three torx screws to fasten the footrest to the bottom of the seat; Fasten the backrest to the seat using four torx bolts; Fasten the armrests to the backrest using four Torx bolts (two on each side), taking care to note the orientation; Place the chair onto the Class 4 Hydraulics gas cylinder; Insert the headrest into the top of the backrest; Use two torx screws to fasten the headrest to the backrest. There's also an online guide you can refer to. Carefully unpacking the two boxes took around 15 minutes because almost everything is wrapped in plastic and protective foam; the chair assembly itself took around an hour. I say in the above assembly steps to take note of the orientation, because it's not obvious which way around the bottom portion of the armrests go, and although there is an L and R on the bottom of the armrests, it also wasn't clear from the instructions which was actually left or right, facing the chair, or in the seated down orientation? Anyway, I ended up putting the bottom portions on the wrong sides, and after securing one of the armrests, I discovered that although it was on the correct side, the armrest base could rotate a full 360°, but not when bolted to the chair, so I had to remove it, rotate it, and then bolt it back on. Truly an Ikea experience! Also, to complicate things further, although all the parts are labeled from A to X (yes, that's 24 parts) unhelpfully, these letters do not appear on the parts themselves or the package with the bolts, screws, and washers. There's also a pair of protective gloves in the box, but I think they were made for much smaller hands than I have. Even my friend, who is 5.1, had difficulty putting them on. Once assembled, I needed to sit down. Anyway, as I said, it looks quite similar to my Herman Miller. And here is the back of it. If you look at the product page and on Amazon, it seems like a lot of thought has gone into the chair itself and what it's capable of, but there is no mention at all about the castors, and this is an area where I think the chair trips up quite quickly. I found it difficult to move the chair in any direction. I asked a friend who came to visit me earlier this week to test my findings, and she said that the wheels were "no good," so it definitely isn't just me. I am 6'2 myself and a big guy, I work from home and gained a few pounds from mostly staying in and the hell away from other people. However, the Doro C300 Pro V2 is rated for up to 150kg (330lbs), which in my case is used well within its max rating. Ergonomics The number of adjustments you can make, right up to setting it in nap mode — which I haven't fully tested yet — is what you'd expect from a premium chair. Yes, you can go up and down (max 7.5 cm adjustment), rock back and forth (with tilt adjustment), and lock the chair between three stages of 105°, 120°, 135°, which is not quite as flat as the AndaSeat I tested at 160°. Some thought has also gone into the "8D" armrests, too, which are cushioned but quite firm; you'll only know it if you press hard into the PU-covered tops, which give about half a centimeter, but it's enough to ensure your skin won't get awkwardly stuck to it in warmer (or sweatier) conditions. It almost feels like plastic and is very easy to keep clean. However, the armrest positions move far too easily, and I am not sure what that "elbow" function is. Maybe it is good for a short person with short arms, anyway, I never used it and kept it flat at all times. There are eight levels of adjustment for the armrests, they are: backwards, forwards, swing left/right, height up and down, tilt, and 360° rotation, which can be handy for desk clearance. As I said, the armrest pads shift far too easily, which could give off an ergonomic vibe, but who wants the armrest sliding when you are shifting weight? The height adjustability does lock into place when lifting and adjusting. Comfort This is ultimately what it boils down to at the end of the day, right? Quite a lot of reviews praise the comfort of this chair, and I don't disagree that the mesh seating is quite comfortable. I am used to the material from my daily Herman Miller. However, the backrest cannot be locked into place, and this is actually a feature; as you shift or recline yourself on the chair, the backrest moves with your body. It took some getting used to. The lumbar gives ample support, but I would have preferred an adjustable one built into the seat base, as this causes the backrest to move up and down at will. Again, as with my previous chair review, this chair is also rated for tall people, but nowhere in the product documentation does it say how tall. Being 6'2 myself, I'm happy to say that the backrest is tall and wide enough, and thought has been given to being able to adjust the neck rest, but as others have mentioned in their reviews, people as tall as 6.2ft is about the limit for the neckrest. Conclusion What I didn't like The footrest is rated for 15kg (33 lbs), which to me seems a bit light, and after looking online, it seems like a chair footrest for adults must be at least twice that rating. In all honesty, they are just hollow metal tubes, so it is not recommended to let a kid sit on them. I also feel like it doesn't really go out far enough for my height, so that kind of puts the dampener on me being able to use it regularly. I'll just have to continue to use my subwoofer as a footrest! I do not like the armrests being able to shift around as easily as they can, and they are a little too forward-positioned in the chair to comfortably sit close to my desk, because even in the lowest height position, they don't allow me to go under the desk like is possible with my Herman Miller. I also feel like this chair could have been delivered partially constructed, especially the armrests on the seat, and why the aluminum base wasn't already pre-constructed (without the castors) is baffling, considering it would have fit in one of the two boxes that way. The instructions also need to be clearer. On the pamphlet, there's an A to X listing (which is also used in the steps), but none of the physical parts use this lettering system! What I did like I'll be honest, I haven't used it for very long, just one week, and seating comfort is subjective after all! Any spills wiped straight off it, the stitching, and the lines look great, not a fray to be seen or stitch out of place. It looks kind of cool, too. My favorite feature of these seats is the nap mode. While you're not lying completely flat, it leans far back enough to make you easily doze off after a heavy gaming or working session. Overall, this chair offers plenty of comfort features. The MSRP does vary quite a bit depending on the region, at £549.99 in the UK, and €580 in Europe, and $599 before tax in the U.S. However, shipping is free, which is a bonus for such a heavy item. Is it worth it, though? At three years' warranty, I think it's a decent deal. Another firm out of Germany sent me a free replacement hydraulic gas spring for a chair that failed after almost four years, so it was well outside its two-year warranty. My advice is to always try, as you might have the same luck I did. If I could fault it at all, it would be the constant shifting of the armrests and backrest. Where to buy Although the footrest variant normally costs $539.99, it has been discounted to $469.99 on the official website in Black or White. In fact, the non-footrest variant is only $40 cheaper. On Amazon, it currently costs more at $499.99 links below. Sihoo Doro C300 Pro V2 for $469.99 (official website) Sihoo Doro C300 Pro V2 for $499.99 at Amazon US SIHOO provided a free sample without any review or pre-approval. Good to know This Amazon link is U.S. specific, and not available in other regions unless specified. We only use first-party seller links (at the time of article publishing); ensure that you purchase from a first-party seller link only. Check out Today's Deals on Amazon | or our recent tech deals. Become a Prime member (for Students or SNAP) via Neowin Get Prime Access - Prime for half price (for qualifying Medicaid, EBT, SNAP) Subscribe to Prime Video, Audible Plus, Music Unlimited or Kindle Unlimited via Neowin As an Amazon Associate, we earn from qualifying purchases.
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