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Mr.XXIV

Any PHP Developers Want To Team Up?

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+1 for Symfony2. All the other frameworks are a little outdated. There seems to be a lot of people who build sites for hobbies; professional developers will point you to Symfony2 or ZendFramework since they're pretty much the most serious frameworks right now. The rest can be arguably as good, but as far as the latest and greatest Symfony2 or ZendFramework are your bet.

I may join up because I've been developing projects that don't need a framework of such scale. It'd be nice to get to work more with Symfony2.

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+1 for Symfony2. All the other frameworks are a little outdated. There seems to be a lot of people who build sites for hobbies; professional developers will point you to Symfony2 or ZendFramework since they're pretty much the most serious frameworks right now. The rest can be arguably as good, but as far as the latest and greatest Symfony2 or ZendFramework are your bet.

I may join up because I've been developing projects that don't need a framework of such scale. It'd be nice to get to work more with Symfony2.

Sweet! Making use of Symfony, there are many things needed to be built and the components and functions built in this framework will cover a lot, and I'm probably gonna have to get someone who works with algorithms for a certain user feature known as a personality graph, made for improving the user itself.

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I work professionally as a software engineer so I assure you I'm not talking pure crap. Trying to do anything in bare PHP will more than likely end up in a unmaintainable mess. An MVC framework will compartmentalise everything quite nicely and make future changes much quicker and simpler.

What a load of complete and utter tosh.

If not using a framework is messy then that must mean then framework itself is messy according to you.

How long would it take you to write your own role-based permissions system, or multi-step forms, or a CRUD control panel? With a framework those could just be config file changes, or a single command line to auto-generate a template-based basic control panel to get you start.

I made a control panel in a week originally then rewrote the whole thing a few years later in a few days without any 'frameworks'

Yes, you have to keep a framework updated. If you're writing code properly it should be rather straightforward as your code is separate from the framework's. Updating Symfony is just a simple git pull.

Yes you would think. How many companies are still using XP or outdated software? Loads.

Learning about security isn't the purpose of a framework - you learn about security by learning about security (and experience, of course). I'd put my eggs in the thoroughly unit-tested, open source framework basket than anything written adhoc anyday.

No it's not the purpose of a framework, but only a fool uses something which they do not understand, and if you haven't been through every single line of code in the framework (No need to say you have, I know you haven't) then you do not have a clue about it. Anyone can advertise anything wrongly on the internet and go unnoticed. Plus if there's a flaw or 0day discovered in the framework, it's not just one site that can be exploited, IT IS EVERY SITE that uses that framework, and finding sites using it won't be hard using google won't be hard due to you having to acknowledge that you are using the framework.

Ridiculous. For one, string operations are quite expensive, and two, if your database is noticably slower because you added a single extra column then you've probably got other problems like misconfiguration, no-cache, or simply bad hardware.

String operations aren't expensive on today's hardware. And as I said, in an ENTERPRISE environment, the space an extra column takes up is huge, it's got padding and all sorts in the database files themselves.

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What a load of complete and utter tosh.

If not using a framework is messy then that must mean then framework itself is messy according to you.

I made a control panel in a week originally then rewrote the whole thing a few years later in a few days without any 'frameworks'

Yes you would think. How many companies are still using XP or outdated software? Loads.

No it's not the purpose of a framework, but only a fool uses something which they do not understand, and if you haven't been through every single line of code in the framework (No need to say you have, I know you haven't) then you do not have a clue about it. Anyone can advertise anything wrongly on the internet and go unnoticed. Plus if there's a flaw or 0day discovered in the framework, it's not just one site that can be exploited, IT IS EVERY SITE that uses that framework, and finding sites using it won't be hard using google won't be hard due to you having to acknowledge that you are using the framework.

String operations aren't expensive on today's hardware. And as I said, in an ENTERPRISE environment, the space an extra column takes up is huge, it's got padding and all sorts in the database files themselves.

The same things can happen on any CMS or Framework. Invision, WordPress, Joomla, no matter what, everything has it's weaknesses until proven resolved. I would've chosen FuelPHP, but it turns out Symfony was more advanced in many features, seeing that it works with YAML and things I've never thought about touching, but this will be something big I could learn from.

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The same things can happen on any CMS or Framework. Invision, WordPress, Joomla, no matter what, everything has it's weaknesses until proven resolved. I would've chosen FuelPHP, but it turns out Symfony was more advanced in many features, seeing that it works with YAML and things I've never thought about touching, but this will be something big I could learn from.

You might be able to learn from creating the site, but you learn nothing by using a framework, all you learn is how to rely on it. If there's a job opening for a PHP coder for instance, if you've only got experiance in PHP by using a framework, unless that company ONLY uses that framework, you won't get the job. The job will go to someone that doesn't rely on frameworks.

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You might be able to learn from creating the site, but you learn nothing by using a framework, all you learn is how to rely on it. If there's a job opening for a PHP coder for instance, if you've only got experiance in PHP by using a framework, unless that company ONLY uses that framework, you won't get the job. The job will go to someone that doesn't rely on frameworks.

If I have the complete experience to create my own framework for the site, then I'd be glad to switch it from Symfony to my own once it's the way I need it. Until then, I'd have to make-do. I'm hoping I gain complete knowledge to create whatever when PHP 6 comes around (god knows when that's happening).

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Why PHP6? PHP5 is fine and it's more than likely whatever you code for PHP5 will work as-is or need very little adjustment to work in PHP6, and you can read what syntax will be removed in PHP6 in the PHP documentation.

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True, AFAIR, PHP 5.6 is in Alpha stage and I'm just hoping I could understand most of the current by stable release. It's just that I've always been the bleeding edge type.

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It is a VERY bad idea to use bleeding edge on a production server.

I've got bleeding edge hiphop on the site I code for but it's not really ever used.

If you expect to create and run a social networking site - you do NOT want bleeding edge.

Bleeding edge software brings bleeding edge problems and bugs with it, you're talking about PHP 5.6 now but here's the top news article on php.net; 'PHP 5.5.0 Alpha2 released: THIS IS A DEVELOPMENT PREVIEW - DO NOT USE IT IN PRODUCTION!'

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It is a VERY bad idea to use bleeding edge on a production server.

I've got bleeding edge hiphop on the site I code for but it's not really ever used.

If you expect to create and run a social networking site - you do NOT want bleeding edge.

Bleeding edge software brings bleeding edge problems and bugs with it, you're talking about PHP 5.6 now but here's the top news article on php.net; 'PHP 5.5.0 Alpha2 released: THIS IS A DEVELOPMENT PREVIEW - DO NOT USE IT IN PRODUCTION!'

I'm not that crazy. Who said I was using dev's on production? lol I always use the latest everything personally. I already have the 5.6a2.

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I'll help you with it if it's going to start off from scratch. :)

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Surprised nobody has mentioned Laravel, it blows any other Framework out of the water.

Look up Laravel 4, and also check out the Bundles.. you'll smile.

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I'll help you with it if it's going to start off from scratch. :)

I prefer we at least work on a framework to make a good start and then work on our own where we could clean up and provide more of the necessary. We also need to think about the attraction, so we at least need a good start til then. :)

Surprised nobody has mentioned Laravel, it blows any other Framework out of the water.

Look up Laravel 4, and also check out the Bundles.. you'll smile.

I've seen it for a while on TutsPlus. After seeing so many Frameworks, I was so unsure what to work with.

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I really mean no offense to n_K but it seems he doesn't have experience working and maintaining large projects. Writing everything from scratch can be (and most likely be) a nightmare.

The issue is NOT that you can or can't write from scratch, the issue is (for the most part) maintainability. Frameworks (specifically MVC) are designed and teach you to decouple your code so that it maintains re-usability, ease of maintainability, stability (via the writing of tests aka unit testing) and just mostly independent of other parts of the framework.

Meaning that if you decide to move to another framework or even your own the code would already be decoupled and you'd be able to use it in many other projects just by calling the parts you need.

This means that all the business logic in your code isn't stuck to the framework, it's just being used by it.

Although the setup can be framework specific, the code you write can be used by many other things outside of the framework. Because again, your code will not depend on the framework and will produce results that can be used by many other services. Be it an API or library, you name it.

I do however agree that it's not a good idea to use bleeding edge on a production server. Use the version that has all the features you actually need. Even if that means to use the most stable yet reasonably up-to-date 5.3 versions.

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What I'm really trying to provide for the UX is almost as complicated as Facebook or any of the major social networks. Features that even require the study of the user, and even the feedback of the UX itself. That's why I trust using Frameworks before I go off from doing anything from scratch as nowadays. It's best to take shortcuts before you know you're whole way around. Hope this makes sense.

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It's all about choice really, but IMO you're making the smarter choice by sticking with Symfony2 which suit your particular needs :)

No need to write the base code from scratch, you can just start coding away on the content and processing of information right away!

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It's all about choice really, but IMO you're making the smarter choice by sticking with Symfony2 which suit your particular needs :)

No need to write the base code from scratch, you can just start coding away on the content and processing of information right away!

Thanks. :)

Currently working on the routing and the pages to setup, all that's static before I move on to any of the pages that require the database. Once that's setup, I'm definitely going to need a lot of help with the querying, or that could all be done at the same time with the help of a few teammates. :/

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Thanks. :)

Currently working on the routing and the pages to setup, all that's static before I move on to any of the pages that require the database. Once that's setup, I'm definitely going to need a lot of help with the querying, or that could all be done at the same time with the help of a few teammates. :/

Anyway, if you set up a private git repository on GitHub I would most likely join. Or if you don't want to pay for a private repository and or never used source control we could try it out on my private repository.

Then that way we can add other developers on Neowin that'd wish to join the project. They could easily fork the project, submit their work and merging it with the main project would be a breeze. All while it keeps track of who did what and all the wonderful tools for code collaboration.

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Not sure if technomixx is spam or just trolling considering his post count...

Anyway, if you set up a private git repository on GitHub I would most likely join. Or if you don't want to pay for a private repository and or never used source control we could try it out on my private repository.

Then that way we can add other developers on Neowin that'd wish to join the project. They could easily fork the project, submit their work and merging it with the main project would be a breeze. All while it keeps track of who did what and all the wonderful tools for code collaboration.

I'll definitely need a private repository. :) It'll help me out more when I'll need to code on-the-go.

Not only is it spam but it's bad advice.

Wordpress sucks, it's a spammers heaven and is one of the most targeted platforms, and Code Igniter, i agree is clean and easy, but it's dying a slow death.. it's well worth playing with if you are new to frameworks but the community is shrinking more every day.

And definitely not a good idea for Social Networks, even with Buddypress. Heck, I even tried to develop MyLovr with BuddyPress to see how'd it work, basically, no. Just no.

FuelPHP was what made me ignore Code Igniter.

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If you're writing PHP from scratch you'l failing from the start. You'll want a good framework - Symfony is what we used at my last job.

interesting opinion, but I find creating new scripts that I can use over and over again (a personal template) is much better I know how it works and I control the security... I have developed my own admin panels and CMS which is installed on every clients site :p I do see your point frameworks are good but I dont feel like im doing a job but i do see the benefits in frameworks....

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I am not a spammer.

I have done most of my code in Zend FW, Codeigniter, WP and Joomla. CI and WP are most easy for developers. I don't know much about latest Frameworks.

WP is a blogging platform and not meant for social networks, even if with BuddyPress. CI is honestly dying.

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interesting opinion, but I find creating new scripts that I can use over and over again (a personal template) is much better I know how it works and I control the security... I have developed my own admin panels and CMS which is installed on every clients site :p I do see your point frameworks are good but I dont feel like im doing a job but i do see the benefits in frameworks....

If you layer crap on top of crap you just have a bigger stack of crap.

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Okay, it's settled, Symfony on PHP 5.4 using the fastest server Host Gator can offer. Who wants to hop in on this?

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For those who do want to join, of course, I'll be listing the contributors/staff members on the about/team section. I really want to talk about how this will work and how I want to go about this with other Web Developers on Neowin.

This will obviously be my most dedicated work & I hope this can mean something to the community. :)

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Like I said, if you have a GitHub repo for it I'll try it out.

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