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Posted

Stop using it on an unsupported OS then, Ubuntu only for now.
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[quote name='ChrisJ1968' timestamp='1358569207' post='595463626']
relax and give it time broski. it's new and as all new things go.. there are inherent bumps in the road. I would like to see how you feel about it in say...oh... a year from now?
[/quote]

This same argument is said every year about Linux itself. 20+ yrs later and people are still saying "Give it time this will be the year of Linux".

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Posted

I think all that would be needed for this to take off is for a game that's exclusive to the Linux Steam to become a hit. That said, I'm not sure if that means it would have to come from some big publisher, or if any other circumstances would have to be met.

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[quote name='Kyang' timestamp='1358704817' post='595466186']
I think all that would be needed for this to take off is for a game that's exclusive to the Linux Steam to become a hit. That said, I'm not sure if that means it would have to come from some big publisher, or if any other circumstances would have to be met.
[/quote]

who would do that? There's no way in hell theres ever gonna be a COD or GTA or Saints Row exclusively on Linux. The best you can hope for would be a pokemon or maybe an angry birds addon.

Plus I just jumped onto my Gentoo box and Steam installed just fine. Nothing to play though but whatever.

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Arch linux
now i'm disappointed.

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[quote name='Majesticmerc' timestamp='1358561768' post='595463456']
First of all, why is the client 32-bit only? I honestly can't remember that last time a Linux application came with [i]only[/i] a 32-bit binary. This decision means that everyone on an x64 Linux build has to install 32-bit libraries in order to run Steam. Why not just provide a 64-bit binary and save us the bloat of having to install multilib libraries purely for Steam? I can't imagine that the difference between x86 and x64 would be so much that it'd be impossible to develop both at the same time.[/quote]

The situation is the same on Windows apart from the 64 bit steam service. I'm guessing developing 2 clients side by side would increase support costs but it would be nice to see Valve throw more weight behind 64 bit computing given how many of their gamers use 64 bit versions of Windows.

[quote]Second, what's with the auto-update process? Most Linux distros have pretty solid package management. So why not just leave it to the package managers? This problem is SOLVED in Linux. Why use some [****-poor] auto-update process when mature platforms already exist for exactly this problem?[/quote]

Don't keys for third party repositories have to be signed? could be that they're not really happy with having such little control over the process. Besides with the system Steam currently has you're auto updated as soon as you log in which means they don't have to support a whole bunch of people using outdated clients. If they relied on software repositories it's likely users wouldn't always update so frequently.

The rest of your complaints sound pretty much like they're explained by it being a very early development version. If you were expecting it to sparkle and have a huge library of games available after such a short amount of time in development i'd say your expectations were probably a touch too high. Steam wasn't great when it was first released for Windows but I am confident it will eventually come good on Linux.

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Posted

[quote name='thealexweb' timestamp='1358701477' post='595466106']
Stop using it on an unsupported OS then, Ubuntu only for now.
[/quote]

It's so simple like that :yes:

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[quote name='thealexweb' timestamp='1358701477' post='595466106']
Stop using it on an unsupported OS then, Ubuntu only for now.
[/quote]

It should still work on other distros. Noobuntu isn't the only one. I got it working fine on Gentoo and my friend uses his on Arch.

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Posted

Gentoo, Arch
are you people masochist

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[quote name='syobon999' timestamp='1358706732' post='595466260']
Gentoo, Arch
are you people masochist
[/quote]

Are you not?

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[quote name='syobon999' timestamp='1358706732' post='595466260']
Gentoo, Arch
are you people masochist
[/quote]
[quote name='syobon999' timestamp='1358705240' post='595466210']
Arch linux
now i'm disappointed.
[/quote]
Steam runs fine on arch linux. There's a package in the AUR.

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Sorry for the long reply, I've been AFK for a few days and haven't had chance to reply. I've replied to most of the key points. Duplicates and unconstructive comment have been omitted...

[quote name='Simon-' timestamp='1358562271' post='595463460']
Sounds pretty mild, approximately 0% normal users care sbout dependancies unless it is causing a problem. It uses a few GBs of space, and that is the price you pay for the client and the games which need it. How big is your hard drive? 10GB? Maybe you need a bigger drive. It makes sense that they use their own auto update, standard update managers don't support the DRM which Steam needs to make their platform a reality, and using their own auto update to test their DRM laden update process makes sense.
[/quote]

The size of my hard disk is fine. My point is that separate builds on Linux for 32-bit and 64-bit is pretty standard. Hopefully there will be a 64-bit client by the time the beta is through. I guess I'm just more aware of it since Arch doesn't include any 32-bit libs by default, and downloads them on demand.

Regarding the updater. I'm not talking about the game update process, I accept that that has to be done through the client, I'm talking about the updater for the application itself. Whenever Steam requires an update, I see this crappy popup box that downloads and installs the update. I don't see why this can't be handled with pacman or apt or yum or <insert package manager here> unless there's some need for Valve to keep the Steam client constantly up to date, which is always possible.

[quote name='The_Decryptor' timestamp='1358562583' post='595463464']
Valve have said that Ubuntu is currently the only supported distro, hence it trying to use apt-get to install stuff it needs. So it not working properly on Arch isn't surprising.
[/quote]

Very true, but why did the game decide to do this? Using a specific package manager to download a component is needlessly limiting, especially since the Humble Bundle version of the game worked fine on every other major distro.

I think a lot of my concerns revolve around the fact that I thought that Valve were extending the beta to other distros since I was invited as an Arch user to the private beta. Unfortunately it appears this wasn't the case, I just got an invite regardless.

[quote name='Farchord' timestamp='1358563346' post='595463472']
So what, you expect them to make a Pacman, Debian, RPM, ... -compliant update process? Nah. Makes sense they just use their own, as they have to keep complying with their contracts with the game makers.
[/quote]

Why not? If there's some dying need for Valve to keep the client up to date constantly, then I guess it must be done, but there are advantages to package manager support for users. It's not an insurmountable task. If the likes of NixInstaller, Google, Mozilla, Apache and Oracle can manage it, why can't Valve?

Interestingly, someone later in this thread mentions that Valve have a PPA for Steam in Ubuntu, so maybe they are doing the Package manager thing and it's falling back to some in-built auto-updater for other distros? Hopefully they're support other distros' package managers in time.

[quote name='JaredFrost' timestamp='1358564356' post='595463480']
I don't care either way if they make Steam for Linux, but sometimes I think people forget what the hell a beta is.
[/quote]

I guess we're not allowed to complain if software is buggy? If anything, the time TO complain is during the beta, lest people keep their mouths shut and the bugs make it into final. :rolleyes:.

[size=2](Before anyone gives me crap for "not complaining to Valve", Valve are hopefully aware of all these issues since they've been brought up on the forum. I was, like I said in the OP, ranting for the mostpart).[/size]

[quote name='n_K' timestamp='1358566899' post='595463560']
"Fourth, and probably most importantly, where's the quality control in the games? Of all the games that are "available for Linux", in my experience about 50% are 'private betas' that need a password to play or simply don't install."
I've got a lot of linux games and they all work fine.
Store -> tab 'Linux Games' lists only linux games.

"SpaceChem trying to use apt to try and install dependencies"
Haven't seen that happen but agreed fully, should be up to steam and using config files that you set up yourself for your system/package management system.

I've been impressed with it since I got invited to the beta, seems fine to me all in all for a beta.
[/quote]

I've got the Linux games list up, but of those, half the one's I've tried (notably Psychonauts and Snapshot) are both in "Private Beta" meaning that I can't play them without a password. Seems kind of harsh to include them in my games list if I can't actually play them. Earlier versions of Steam tended to install just the application icon for a game, and not the game itself, meaning the game would silently fail.

Interestingly, this brings me to another thought. Games launched from within Steam tend to fail silently when they crash, and there's no way to redirect output from within the Steam client AFAICT. That'd be a nice addition.

[quote name='08993' timestamp='1358592029' post='595463838']
I just find it amusing that Gabe ranted about Windows 8 being a closed platform and then of all distro's to base development on chooses Ubuntu! I'm not going to slag Ubuntu off but it's guilty of a lot of what Windows 8 is apparently guilty of, has a store that sells games, it's x64 builds are multi-libbed by default etc. Of all the distro's you can choose Ubuntu is without doubt doing it's own thing and forcing it's internal ethos on the users, just like Windows 8!

Anyway, then there's the games, some of the ports are sloppy, not Valve's fault, HiB guys are guilty of rushing ports with really silly, lazy bugs, these all have Steam keys now. Also, game choice is not very good, apart from Valve's own and a few others you can get the rest of the games elsewhere and it alleviates a lot of the problems, can get a native x64 Amnesia-TDD for example that means you don't have to multilib, then again if you use Ubuntu you don't care about multilib.

The steam client doesn't adhere to EWMH, as such won't work on tilers properly, the Valve guys were given viable alternatives to updating outside of package managers but weren't interested, actually thinking about it Ubuntu and Steam perhaps belong together and target the same users who don't care about all of this stuff, and that's fair enough I guess.

I was mad at first but now I've realised that it's a mainstream product targeted to mainstream users who typically don't care if they are decent Linux citizens or not, the type of [b][size=5]users who think Ubuntu IS Linux[/size][/b], and I hate to say it but a lot of the Linux users here on Neowin fall into that category which is why most reply's on this thread don't understand the grievances OP mentioned. I don't mean this in a nasty way, but most here have never stepped outside of a DE and discovered what really sets Linux apart, and if you've not done this how would you be expected to know any different?
[/quote]

Agreed for the mostpart, but I bolded the thing I found extremely relevant to me. The "Steam for Linux" beta is really just a "Steam for Ubuntu" beta, with lip service paid to other distros. Regarding the ports situation I agree, but I don't really understand why the ports have gotten WORSE under Steam. Many of these games were completely functional without Steam, I wouldn't have imagined that adding Steam support would have been that big of a task.

[quote name='thealexweb' timestamp='1358701477' post='595466106']
Stop using it on an unsupported OS then, Ubuntu only for now.
[/quote]

Well I was invited to the private beta, so I guess they wanted me to try it. Besides, if I was using an unsupported OS, why didn't they call it "Steam for Ubuntu"?

[quote name='Javik' timestamp='1358706313' post='595466240']
The situation is the same on Windows apart from the 64 bit steam service. I'm guessing developing 2 clients side by side would increase support costs but it would be nice to see Valve throw more weight behind 64 bit computing given how many of their gamers use 64 bit versions of Windows.

Don't keys for third party repositories have to be signed? could be that they're not really happy with having such little control over the process. Besides with the system Steam currently has you're auto updated as soon as you log in which means they don't have to support a whole bunch of people using outdated clients. If they relied on software repositories it's likely users wouldn't always update so frequently.

The rest of your complaints sound pretty much like they're explained by it being a very early development version. If you were expecting it to sparkle and have a huge library of games available after such a short amount of time in development i'd say your expectations were probably a touch too high. Steam wasn't great when it was first released for Windows but I am confident it will eventually come good on Linux.
[/quote]

I hope so. I know it's only a beta, but it's certainly buggier than a lot of betas I've tried in recent years. I guess they have a lot on their plate though and I think my expectations probably were too high, which is the problem here. I'm looking forward to the final release, I just hope the final support extends beyond -buntu.

I just want to point out that I'm not [i]hating[/i] the Steam on Linux beta, after all, I'm glad it's coming. I think I just expected more from this beta.

Thanks for the input folks, even if your views differ to my own, it's still good to hear em :)
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Posted

[quote name='Majesticmerc' timestamp='1358721432' post='595466666']
I guess we're not allowed to complain if software is buggy? If anything, the time TO complain is during the beta, lest people keep their mouths shut and the bugs make it into final. :rolleyes:.

[size=2](Before anyone gives me crap for "not complaining to Valve", Valve are hopefully aware of all these issues since they've been brought up on the forum. I was, like I said in the OP, ranting for the mostpart).[/size]
[/quote]

Oh, you're absolutely allowed to complain, but what does complaining on a forum away from Valve attempt to solve? anything? a need to rant because it's not working the way you want it to during a beta?
And you should speak up, even if other people have already submited your issues, that's how they weigh if the issues are a concern or not, if only 3-4 people complain, hey, that's not a huge issue and they'll
work on other stuff first, the more people speak up and complain the more likely the issues will be addressed.

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A few things to note:

- Steam on Linux will pretty much start with only Valve's offerings fully functional. Each platform release for Steam has begun this way.

- Let's face it, Valve's Steam coders have always been terrible. The bar has merely been raised, and Steam isn't any less terrible by today's standards, than it were ten years ago.

- The reasoning behind our Steamy fever has gradually shifted. For many, it is less about the games, and more about the community behind those games. Many of us Linux enthusiasts will see the native client as a godsend after using the glitchy mess that is Wine'd Steam. As the userbase becomes apparent, the games will follow.

- Linux and its support has almost matured to a point where it is on par with Windows in stability while tweaking. I installed Fedora 18 the other day, and decided to cross my fingers before testing out AMD's newest proprietaries. Amazingly enough, Gnome 3 was 100% functional, and TF2 performed better than my Windows installation.

- That big, Steamy pile'o'crap we use was actually excreted from the white dwarf "Gabe Newell," and being of great mass, others are bound to gravitate to his new position in Ubuntu's multiverse. Give it two years and we'll see a healthy solar system with a few dozen developers orbiting.

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I would say even though it's pretty heavy on ubuntu at the moment give it time. They picked ubuntu as it's the most widely installed distro for end users. However once it gets rolling I would expect it to roll out to the other major distros with fedora likely to be next

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I am using under Ubuntu and I gotta say, it isnot pretty bad for a beta.It takes some time to get a descent version on linux, specially , this is the first encounter

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[quote name='REM2000' timestamp='1358757490' post='595467584']
I would say even though it's pretty heavy on ubuntu at the moment give it time. They picked ubuntu as it's the most widely installed distro for end users. However once it gets rolling I would expect it to roll out to the other major distros with fedora likely to be next
[/quote]

Arch first. Have you even seen what kind of a userbase Steam has? The majority is Arch, not Ubuntu. Us Fedora have little to no representation :(

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[quote name='Reacon' timestamp='1358792794' post='595468618']
Arch first. Have you even seen what kind of a userbase Steam has? The majority is Arch, not Ubuntu. Us Fedora have little to no representation :(
[/quote]
Arch is a bit of a noob/half gentoo, so it'll never appeal to the masses that want to game. Imagine valve trying to get people on it 'Just download this ISO, boot from it and partition your hard drives, mount the filesystems and use pacman to setup a base installation then install a bootloader and reboot without the disk or fire up links if you get stuck!'... Everyone would look around in complete confusion and not have a clue what they were talking about and just use windows.
Ubuntu on the other hand, despite it being crap in my opinion, really can be used by anyone, there's a GUI installer, it'll automatically resize your windows partitions and allow you to dual boot which is the user valve is aiming at, right now at this moment in time.
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[quote name='n_K' timestamp='1358810569' post='595469288']
Arch is a bit of a noob/half gentoo, so it'll never appeal to the masses that want to game. Imagine valve trying to get people on it 'Just download this ISO, boot from it and partition your hard drives, mount the filesystems and use pacman to setup a base installation then install a bootloader and reboot without the disk or fire up links if you get stuck!'... Everyone would look around in complete confusion and not have a clue what they were talking about and just use windows.
Ubuntu on the other hand, despite it being crap in my opinion, really can be used by anyone, there's a GUI installer, it'll automatically resize your windows partitions and allow you to dual boot which is the user valve is aiming at, right now at this moment in time.
[/quote]

Half Gentoo? That's the first time I ever herd Arch being that.

Why would Valve ever do that?

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[quote name='n_K' timestamp='1358810569' post='595469288']
Arch is a bit of a noob/half gentoo, so it'll never appeal to the masses that want to game. Imagine valve trying to get people on it 'Just download this ISO, boot from it and partition your hard drives, mount the filesystems and use pacman to setup a base installation then install a bootloader and reboot without the disk or fire up links if you get stuck!'... Everyone would look around in complete confusion and not have a clue what they were talking about and just use windows.
Ubuntu on the other hand, despite it being crap in my opinion, really can be used by anyone, there's a GUI installer, it'll automatically resize your windows partitions and allow you to dual boot which is the user valve is aiming at, right now at this moment in time.
[/quote]

What you're implying is that Valve expect people will switch to Linux just to game, when the overall goal is to merely blur the gaming line between the operating systems. Only the bandwagony types will switch right away for the sake of Gabe's enthusiasm. What Valve needs to do right now is attract those of the Steam userbase that already like to use Linux on a regular basis.

See, it's more about statistics right now than anything. Anybody playing TF2 on Windows now will likely not switch to Linux just to play TF2, but with some nice steam statistics and a streamlined approach to releasing on the third platform, developers might open their minds a little bit to the idea.

As it stands, Arch Linux is the largest group of Steam Linux users. Valve will follow suit.

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[quote name='ozgeek' timestamp='1358587820' post='595463812']
Don't you get the meaning of BETA?

[img]http://www.neowin.net/forum/uploads/monthly_01_2013/post-30282-0-12774700-1358587787.png[/img]
[/quote]

That was the worst [url="http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/tenso"]tenso[/url] ever. :rolleyes:

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[quote name='Reacon' timestamp='1358811663' post='595469332']
What you're implying is that Valve expect people will switch to Linux just to game, when the overall goal is to merely blur the gaming line between the operating systems. Only the bandwagony types will switch right away for the sake of Gabe's enthusiasm. What Valve needs to do right now is attract those of the Steam userbase that already like to use Linux on a regular basis.

See, it's more about statistics right now than anything. Anybody playing TF2 on Windows now will likely not switch to Linux just to play TF2, but with some nice steam statistics and a streamlined approach to releasing on the third platform, developers might open their minds a little bit to the idea.

As it stands, Arch Linux is the largest group of Steam Linux users. Valve will follow suit.
[/quote]

Actually probably their logic is as follows:

Ubuntu is maintained by [url="http://www.ubuntu.com/devices/backed-by-canonical"]Canonical[/url] which also is an ENTRY (casual) level Linux unlike Arch that is more suited to the person who wants to install and configure it the way they want it.
Canonical also is heavy into the support of Debian.

Start out with support for the simple linux user then fork it out for others.

[b] [url="https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Arch_Linux"]https://wiki.archlin....php/Arch_Linux[/url][/b]



[quote]
[b] Arch Linux[/b]





[color=#000000][font=sans-serif][size=3]Arch Linux is an independently developed, [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P6_(microarchitecture)"]i686[/url]/[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/x86-64"]x86-64[/url] general purpose GNU/Linux distribution versatile enough to suit any role. Development focuses on simplicity, minimalism, and code elegance. Arch is installed as a minimal base system, configured by the user upon which their own ideal environment is assembled by installing only what is required or desired for their unique purposes. GUI configuration utilities are not officially provided, and most system configuration is performed from the shell and a text editor. Based on a rolling-release model, Arch strives to stay bleeding edge, and typically offers the latest stable versions of most software.[/size][/font][/color]
[/quote]




Which the entry level user just wants to -- Click on the .deb file and the OS automatically grabs what it needs. (Unlike with Arch where you may have to manually install the needed libraries.)

Don't get me wrong- [b]I have used Arch and it is great [/b]but for the beginner Ubuntu is the easier start for a new user.

that is probably why they started with Ubuntu.

That and Ubuntu is supported by a company unlike Arch which is User / Community driven/based.
(which means there is someone to contact when their product stops working to help to fix it and get the fix out to the masses unlike the other where they may have to wait on the Community of users to work on the fix)

(I am sure you will argue that- which I can understand your point about more Arch users would want it, but that was probably their logic as to why UBUNTU)

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Since it's a beta, I'm pretty sure they'd be delighted to hear your feedback, if you send it to the right place. That's what betas are for, after all ;)

And Arch for a Linux newbie? Perfectly fine for a willing to learn newbie. Would be catastrophic for a clueless one, though :p

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The Distro "wars" is probably a large part of why it's taken Valve this long to bring Steam to Linux.

Frankly, if you're willing to go through the relative hassle of installing Arch, but hate having to do a little work to get the Steam Beta installed, then I have no idea what possessed you to install Arch in the first place.
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[quote name='Majesticmerc' timestamp='1358561768' post='595463456']
Disclaimer: This is basically a rant thread.

So I've been using the Steam Linux beta for a few weeks now, and I've come to following conclusion: [b]The Steam Linux beta sucks.[/b]

It's not like I don't appreciate what they're doing, I mean after all, Valve are the only publisher that's really taking Linux (except they're not, I'll discuss that later), but still, the execution of the whole thing is farcical.

First of all, why is the client 32-bit only? I honestly can't remember that last time a Linux application came with [i]only[/i] a 32-bit binary. This decision means that everyone on an x64 Linux build has to install 32-bit libraries in order to run Steam. Why not just provide a 64-bit binary and save us the bloat of having to install multilib libraries purely for Steam? I can't imagine that the difference between x86 and x64 would be so much that it'd be impossible to develop both at the same time.

Second, what's with the auto-update process? Most Linux distros have pretty solid package management. So why not just leave it to the package managers? This problem is SOLVED in Linux. Why use some [****-poor] auto-update process when mature platforms already exist for exactly this problem?

Third, why does the client feel compelled to screw with my cursor. This is probably a problem with my setup rather than Steam, but it's the only app on my system that insists on reversing my mouse cursor. Oddness.

Fourth, and probably most importantly, where's the quality control in the games? Of all the games that are "available for Linux", in my experience about 50% are 'private betas' that need a password to play or simply don't install. To make things worse, it doesn't actually tell you that when you buy the game, so you are at risk of buying a game you can't actually play. The funniest thing I find about this is that a lot of the games that don't work are also former Humble Bundle games, so I can play the game perfectly well without Steam, but then can't play the Steam version of the same game. What the hell is up with that?

This inconvenience is compounded by failures like, for example, SpaceChem trying to use apt to try and install dependencies on my Arch install (for those that don't know, that doesn't work), and including libraries that don't work on 64-bit installs. There are threads with distro-specific hacks to get games working, but why isn't Steam doing this for us? I don't expect them to cater to every OS, but they could at least give us some hints. Make the developers provide a list of dependencies, and then check against installed libraries to determine which ones I need to install to get a game to work, and then tell me.

The games overall seem to be the 32-bit versions of the games (which I guess makes sense since the client is too), so I'm installing a lot of 32-bit libs for all the games too. It's gradually turning my Arch install into a glorious mess of libraries. Not really an issue per se, but an annoyance for someone like me who tries to keep a minimal install as much as possible.

I don't know, I guess this beta is giving me a bit of a bitter after-taste. They're touting it as the "Steam Linux beta", when in reality it should just be the "Steam Ubuntu Beta" since non-Ubuntu user's are pretty much out there on our own hacking it together to get it to work.

Overall, I'm finding more success playing games outside of Steam than I am within it. One of the best things about the Windows client is the convenience factor. On Linux I just get the overall impression we're testing the steam box client, and getting a buggy DRM client out of it. I don't think Valve are [i]really[/i] taking Linux seriously like they're making out, they're just getting us to iron the bugs out of the client so they can release a bug-free console. Linux games will be a fortunate side effect of the Steam box, but not the primary focus IMO.

Not impressed.
[/quote]

sounds like the steam BETA is not for you that's all.

I have it running in fedora and not a single issue not one at all

works just as good as it does in windows for me.

32-64bit stuff you are talking about is a non issue for 99.99% of every Linux user who cares if its 32bit you can not tell the diff

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