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Posted

Firstly let me start off, the following will be purely my opinion. It's well known some people will not like those and have different opinions to mine which I'm glad to listen to and have a civil discussion, if you can't manage to keep it civil keep it to yourself please.

I'll start off with myself. I know I engage on some pointless "fights" on this site sometimes even though it's not worth my time nor all the braincells that die in the crossfire but somehow "arguing" with people seems to be built into me and sometimes I just can't walk away, I'll try to improve myself on this.
I also am an fanboy, AMD's mostly but to the limit that I acknowledge to myself that Intel products are better in some things and AMD products to have their own good sides, I couldn't tell about Nvidia vs AMD since I don't follow that topic too closely and try to keep myself away from those discussions.
I really don't care for all the MS/Google/Apple fights going on lately but I do care when people spread obvious fud with nothing to back their claims up and that's when I usually get involved and say something. Recently the fines that companies keep getting from EU/US etc. I'm fine with those as well since there are laws what regulate or when a company itself decides not to follow what they promised to do (MS Ballot screen?) but insane fines like 700m for that, nah I really am not fine with that since for me it seems like bs. Now enough of me.

The site in general - I love it. Since I'm in direct contact with IPB myself everyday maybe that makes it easier for me to navigate and do things but I think overall you guys have done a hell of a good job, I'm actually jealous :p
Moderators are doing a great job keeping things under control, sure sometimes it lacks speed in doing things but it can never be 100% as we would want/wish/imagine. I have nothing to complain about and could keep on praising right?

Now to the writers. More and more I see people complaining on John's pieces, let it go already, the headlines (Slam is the most "hated" word lately for some reasons) must be attractive for new people on this site and "search engine friendly" - by that I mean he does a good job predicting what regular people could search on google. I actually like his pieces, they are easy to read and have no grudge with the headlines.

Brad and Tim - God damn guys. Your reviews are actually one of the best I've seen when it comes to details and the layout, +1 for sure. While I'm not really interested on the unboxing videos myself I guess there are people out there who enjoy those things. If these keep coming I'm sure to come back for a long time :)

Max-Slater - Well..I don't know how to say this so it won't come out wrong and sure as hell don't take this as an offense, I'm not trying to offend no one. There was a long discussion about Nokia vs Apple piece you wrote here (I think it was about the "faults reported" or something similar) but for me it seemed like you were a bit biased towards one than the other. That's just my opinion, maybe it was me who was biased? Who knows..

Other writers - Good job :) I really can't follow all the "big names" around here but haven't really seen anything wrong with articles, maybe a typo here and there but those will be fixed asap anyway.

Members.. Oh this will be a big topic to cover. They are "from wall to wall". Some just seem to be here to bash everything related MS the other to bash everything Google and then there's Apple who's hated by both of them and loved by others. Kinda weird. Like one person said on a yesterdays piece "Buy what you want and fits you and shut up about it" - this couldn't have been said any better. If you really have something smart to add or discuss about why another product is better sure, but at the moment it seems like it's just "Meh my Android is better than WP just because MOAAAR COOORES!" Really? Give it a rest already, who cares? If you like it just because of the cores I think you're not fit to have those discussions. To be frank, I can't afford to switch phones every year so I usually pick one that I like the best at that moment and what suits the best for my needs, that's how I got stuck with an L800 and actually I'm fine with it but it could be better, also my workplace gave me an GS2 which also could be better here and there but if you got suggestions what could be made better should that be directed to the company making the phone/os not on a public forum where they might not see those "suggestions" in the first place?
All I'm trying to say with this is I wish there was more civilized discussion instead of this fanboy wars from both sides but that won't happen any time soon, I know it's a endless circle.
Then the trolls - meh, give up already and take your childish "jokes" somewhere where they belong, like kindergarten or something. "Trolling" is not an art as you might think, it's stupid. Once again this is my opinion.

This is one of those TL;DR threads but oh well :)

If somethings comes to mind and this doesn't get deleted I'll add things later on :) But since then I hope we can all get along and have a normal discussion for once :)
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Posted

tl;dr lol :p
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Posted

[img]http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_llumeiS3Zp1qhh1h7.gif[/img]

Haters gonna hate.

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Posted

Wow that was a bit random but loved reading through your observations which are mostly correct.

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Posted

It mostly is random. I had this idea for a week now but didn't really have the time nor didn't know how to put it all :)

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Posted

was worried when I seen the topic, but very good post.

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Posted

[quote name='SMELTN' timestamp='1364043123' post='595593660']
was worried when I seen the topic, but very good post.
[/quote]
Its your turn in SSG2!!

And I like to think the news writing team started becoming what it now is today back in the days I was on the news team and wrote my hard hitting exposes about the seedy underworld of console gaming. :laugh:

In all seriousness though, I do not think people really appreciate how hard the news writers do work, and how for many of the writers, Neowin is one of the first online outlets to give them a chance to do their writing. A lot of time is put in as a news writer, it is why I only lasted a few months myself when I gave it a shot, so I have nothing but respect for anyone who puts themselves out there like they do. Especially online where hate is much more prevalent then praise.

In regards to the members and the fanboys and the lack of civil discussion, being here for almost 10 years now, I realize that is just the nature of an online community. Again, I feel it is much easier, and much more appealing for whatever reason, for people to express themselves in a negative way rather than a positive one. And although the site seems to go through some phases were the members seem to be more hostile towards each other then at other times, for the most part the members have been the members and have been the same the entire 10 years I have been here. Only thing that has really changed is my own taste, and my own way of treating people, so I think as one gets older, you have less of a tolerance for petty comments and trolls, but they have always existed. Always will. It is how things are.

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Posted

Nice post DirtyLarry :)

You're right on the trolls part, they will always exist but I guess I'm in the time period where they irritate the most, not all of them and not always but sometimes the stuff that comes out from their mouth is just..I rather not say :)

Also on the writers part, I guess John has grown a thick skin to himself since he never seems to be bothered by people "calling him out" that's one admirable skill. :blush:

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Posted

[quote name='alwaysonacoffebreak' timestamp='1364036868' post='595593592']Firstly let me start off, the following will be purely my opinion. It's well known some people will not like those and have different opinions to mine which I'm glad to listen to and have a civil discussion, if you can't manage to keep it civil keep it to yourself please.[/quote]

Telling people who can't "keep it civil" not to post here is asking for trouble - it's confrontational and isn't going to elicit the sort of response you're after. You'd do better to not to mention it at all and simply report any posts that break the community rules to the moderators.

[quote name='alwaysonacoffebreak' timestamp='1364036868' post='595593592']Recently the fines that companies keep getting from EU/US etc. I'm fine with those as well since there are laws what regulate or when a company itself decides not to follow what they promised to do (MS Ballot screen?) but insane fines like 700m for that, nah I really am not fine with that since for me it seems like bs.[/quote]

Calling the fines "insane" and "bs" isn't conducive to a mature discussion, as it's again confrontational and is dismissive of other people's opinions. There is merit to both sides of the issue. Of course people will be divided on such a subject but you dismissing the other side out-of-hand is not helpful.

[quote name='alwaysonacoffebreak' timestamp='1364036868' post='595593592']Now to the writers. More and more I see people complaining on John's pieces, let it go already, the headlines (Slam is the most "hated" word lately for some reasons) must be attractive for new people on this site and "search engine friendly" - by that I mean he does a good job predicting what regular people could search on google. I actually like his pieces, they are easy to read and have no grudge with the headlines.[/quote]

Creating sensationalist headlines in order to generate advertising revenue might make for a financially successful website but it reflects poorly on journalistic integrity, something many people consider important. [i]Some [/i]titles have been incredibly misleading and [i]some [/i]writers have very noticeable biases. That doesn't mean they're not interesting or informative articles but if people dislike something then they should be free to express that, just as you're free to disagree with them.

[quote name='alwaysonacoffebreak' timestamp='1364036868' post='595593592']Like one person said on a yesterdays piece "Buy what you want and fits you and shut up about it" - this couldn't have been said any better.[/quote]

Technology enthusiasts tend to get excited about technology and they like to express that and discuss it on tech oriented sites like Neowin. You can't expect people who care passionately about something to simply keep it to themselves. In fact advertisers rely on people passionate about their products to build brands, to get people excited about upcoming launches and to tell their friends and family. To expect people on a tech site not to talk about what they like and dislike about tech / tech companies is rather... bizarre. However, that's not to say that there aren't some users who take things too far - even the best of us take things too far on occasion.

Anyway, you made some interesting points. I don't agree with most of them but I still respect that you took the time to express them.

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Posted

Tl;Dr

He thinks I'm awesome.
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Posted

[quote]as it's again confrontational and is dismissive of other people's opinions[/quote]

That's exactly why I stated in the first post that this topic is purely my opinion and I'm not forcing it onto no one. Also the part that you quoted was an example from a very big picture. I'm always up for discussion about these things in topics where they belong :)

[quote]Telling people who can't "keep it civil" not to post here is asking for trouble[/quote]

I personally don't think it's asking for trouble. This part of a sentence "keep it civil" shouldn't even be said in the first place but since lately some topics are getting way out of hand I just mentioned it.

About creating headlines, I think we have different opinions on that mostly. If I understand correctly it is about ad revenue (like you said) and as far as I know writers are somehow "Paid" on that revenue alone. No revenue, no writers, no site/forum. Don't really think that's better than a few sensationalist headlines.

But I appreciate your feedback :)

Yeah, McKay, you're awesome :p

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Posted

I just think people are too hostile to the lovers but they are more accepting of haters.

Just like how it's more acceptable in society to blow people's brains out with an SMG but if you show a tit it's the worst thing ever.
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[quote name='remixedcat' timestamp='1364045208' post='595593712']
I just think people are too hostile to the lovers but they are more accepting of haters.

Just like how it's more acceptable in society to blow people's brains out with an SMG but if you show a tit it's the worst thing ever.
[/quote]

If women want to show their boobs, personally I'm going to be very supporting of that. :D
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Posted

[quote name='theyarecomingforyou' timestamp='1364044627' post='595593694']

Technology enthusiasts tend to get excited about technology and they like to express that and discuss it on tech oriented sites like Neowin. You can't expect people who care passionately about something to simply keep it to themselves. In fact advertisers rely on people passionate about their products to build brands, to get people excited about upcoming launches and to tell their friends and family. To expect people on a tech site not to talk about what they like and dislike about tech / tech companies is rather... bizarre. However, that's not to say that there aren't some users who take things too far - even the best of us take things too far on occasion.

Anyway, you made some interesting points. I don't agree with most of them but I still respect that you took the time to express them.
[/quote]

Also about this part, I never said (or at least didn't mean to say) that people shouldn't express what they like/dislike about a company but I think it should stick to rational boundaries still. Lately it's become more like "I love this company so all others must be **** " which I really don't think is rational. Or maybe I'm just falling into topics like those.

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Posted

[quote name='alwaysonacoffebreak' timestamp='1364045063' post='595593708']I personally don't think it's asking for trouble. This part of a sentence "keep it civil" shouldn't even be said in the first place but since lately some topics are getting way out of hand I just mentioned it.[/quote]

Anyone who can't keep it civil isn't going to look at that statement and honour it, which makes it pointless even stating it. In fact it's counter-productive, as it's likely to antagonise them.

[quote name='alwaysonacoffebreak' timestamp='1364045063' post='595593708']About creating headlines, I think we have different opinions on that mostly. If I understand correctly it is about ad revenue (like you said) and as far as I know writers are somehow "Paid" on that revenue alone. No revenue, no writers, no site/forum. Don't really think that's better than a few sensationalist headlines.[/quote]

A minority of articles on the site are sensationalist and/or misleading and it's [i]those[/i] that people have a problem with. They aren't needed for the site and they give it a bad reputation. There's a difference between writing a creative title and creating a deliberately sensationalist or misleading one. Standards and integrity shouldn't fly out the window when there's money to be made.

[quote name='alwaysonacoffebreak' timestamp='1364045563' post='595593718']Also about this part, I never said (or at least didn't mean to say) that people shouldn't express what they like/dislike about a company but I think it should stick to rational boundaries still. Lately it's become more like "I love this company so all others must be **** " which I really don't think is rational. Or maybe I'm just falling into topics like those.[/quote]

It's simply best to ignore them. If people aren't rational then you're not going to get anywhere trying to correct to them or explaining why you disagree. Fortunately there is an ignore list for people like that.

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Posted

Really enjoyed your post alwaysonacoffeebreak and agree with most of your points.

DirtyLarry is spot on when it comes to the writers. It's a daunting, time-consuming and tedious task that I applaud them for. I think many overlook how hard the writers work on their pieces.

As for the fanboyism, insults, trolling and disrespect, that's just the nature of the internet today. Many like to put the blame on Neowin, but this problem exists in all communities where people are openly giving their opinion. Sad to say, it's the culture we live in now and dealing with it requires effort and teamwork.

Don't forget though, YOU are part of the team. Hitting the report button on someone who is breaking the rules is a crucial part of eliminating the problems quickly. As has been stated many times in the past, Mods can't be everywhere at once. :)

Regards
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Posted

I kinda wanna make a neowin exclusive review for a couple things... but I don't know if any of you would truly appreciate it. :(
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Posted

I also would like to point out that sometimes the news titles are sensationalist or even borderline trollish - like that one recently saying a big name in the industry "hates" the Nexus 7's size. Articles themselves can be incredibly biased especially when it comes to Microsoft vs the European Union. Ok, you like Microsoft, you don't like the European Union, but I thought this was supposed to be journalism, even if "unprofessional".

It doesn't help the tone and content of the comments when the articles themselves wander into negative editorial piece territority. We should stick more to facts and presenting both sides of the medal when the article is about some dispute.

As for the community, I've been a part of it for 8 years now and beyond my personal changes in taste, as Dirty Larry mentionned, I think the general post quality level has gone down. When someone posts a news report about some scientific discovery and the only thing people reply with are 4chan-style pictures and pseudo-funny one-liners, I can't help but wonder why we even tolerate this type of behavior. It's too easy to say it's the internet. There are high quality community-driven websites on the internet; the stackexchange model works very well, reddit works quite well, but these vote-based models couldn't apply here.

What I'd like to see is forum rules and moderation in the style of [url="http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=17883"]Teamliquid[/url]. A few excerpts:
[quote]
[size=5]1. THIS IS OUR HOUSE[/size]
You are our guests. We will make all attempts to treat everyone with due respect and to accommodate everyone's wishes as far as reasonably possible. But, this is a private site. We are not funded by any governments. This means we run the site the way we see fit. We are not obligated to observe anyone's notions of "free speech" or even "fairness." We try of course, and that's why we're consistently considered one of the best gaming sites on the web, and you are always free to give us suggestions (Website Feedback Forum). But, we have our limits. If we don't like you, we simply ban you.

[size=5]3. THOU SHALL THINK BEFORE POSTING[/size]
Please, think before you chime in with your opinion on a given post or series of posts. There will usually be some history behind a given exchange in our forums, so take the time to observe what might really be going on and put the conversation into context before you decide who's "right" and who's "wrong." Above all, take into account who is posting - context is everything. Chirping in with your grossly uninformed opinions will only make you look dumb and irritate the heck out of the people who do know what's going on.

[size=5]4. THOU SHALL CONTRIBUTE TO THE SITE[/size]
Contribute to the site. Everyone should pitch in. Some people contribute by being helpful when someone posts a question. Some people contribute by writing interesting posts that stimulate discussion or by uploading relevant and useful facts and information. Some people contribute by posting news from the gaming world. Others contribute by providing resources allowing us all to enjoy this game. Still others contribute by simply making everyone laugh. Contribution can take many forms and there's no single prescribed way to go about it. But, like good micro, we know it when we see it. Many contributors will have stars or special icons by their name. It's not a license to do anything they want, but good contributors will always get favorable treatment.

For you this means, when you create a new thread, make sure to include content worth discussing in it. A link or youtube video is not enough. An opening post should set the tone for discussion by being thoughtful and well constructed. We will not hesitate to close threads that don't have enough OP content.[/quote]

Consider only this: "[i]We will not hesitate to close threads that don't have enough OP content.[/i]" How many threads on Neowin.net have [i]any[/i] OP content, [i]at all[/i]? Half of the threads here are just short excerpts of a news article on another site, which has its own comment thread, and so here we start another comment thread about the same news article, except it's basically just about the title of the article and the one or two sentences selected from it, since very few actually click the link and read the entire thing before posting their opinion.

"[i]An opening post should set the tone for discussion by being thoughtful and well constructed.[/i]" How much thought and construction is there in a link and short excerpt? About none. And that sets the tone for the discussion. It's not surprising then, that posts in such threads are very rarely thoughtful and well constructed.

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[quote name='alwaysonacoffebreak' timestamp='1364036868' post='595593592']

Max-Slater - Well..I don't know how to say this so it won't come out wrong and sure as hell don't take this as an offense, I'm not trying to offend no one. There was a long discussion about Nokia vs Apple piece you wrote here (I think it was about the "faults reported" or something similar) but for me it seemed like you were a bit biased towards one than the other. That's just my opinion, maybe it was me who was biased? Who knows..

[/quote]

I cover Apple here, which is a difficult thing to cover (not many like Apple) so I try and fight the corner as much as I can. I'll tone it down a bit, though. Thanks for the feedback from the whole Neowin crew!

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[quote name='Dr_Asik' timestamp='1364060965' post='595593978']I also would like to point out that sometimes the news titles are sensationalist or even borderline trollish - like that one recently saying a big name in the industry "hates" the Nexus 7's size. Articles themselves can be incredibly biased especially when it comes to Microsoft vs the European Union. Ok, you like Microsoft, you don't like the European Union, but I thought this was supposed to be journalism, even if "unprofessional".

It doesn't help the tone and content of the comments when the articles themselves wander into negative editorial piece territority. We should stick more to facts and presenting both sides of the medal when the article is about some dispute.[/quote]

Agreed.

[quote name='Dr_Asik' timestamp='1364060965' post='595593978']As for the community, I've been a part of it for 8 years now and beyond my personal changes in taste, as Dirty Larry mentionned, I think the general post quality level has gone down.[/quote]

I'm really not sure about that. Don't forget that Neowin was a much smaller site back then and didn't have as many members, so while the number of immature / ridiculous posts may have increased in number that doesn't mean they're increased in relation to the number of users. At the same time I've seen more people making articulate points, providing sources to backup the assertions they make and contributing to the site and I think the Like system has helped highlight those users. Moderators are also more active than before, jumping in to clean topics before they get derailed and closing them when they do. It's also worth bearing in mind that there didn't used to be as much emphasis on non-tech subjects in the forums and when you start discussing politics and real world events that's always going to generate more disagreements.

I still think there's a lot to like about Neowin's community. You'll always have members that are immature or unwilling to respond to reason but that's part of the internet.

[quote name='Dr_Asik' timestamp='1364060965' post='595593978']There are high quality community-driven websites on the internet; the stackexchange model works very well, reddit works quite well, but these vote-based models couldn't apply here.[/quote]

I wouldn't use reddit as an example of a "high quality" community.

[quote name='Dr_Asik' timestamp='1364060965' post='595593978']Consider only this: "[i]We will not hesitate to close threads that don't have enough OP content.[/i]" How many threads on Neowin.net have [i]any[/i] OP content, [i]at all[/i]? Half of the threads here are just short excerpts of a news article on another site, which has its own comment thread, and so here we start another comment thread about the same news article, except it's basically just about the title of the article and the one or two sentences selected from it, since very few actually click the link and read the entire thing before posting their opinion.

"[i]An opening post should set the tone for discussion by being thoughtful and well constructed.[/i]" How much thought and construction is there in a link and short excerpt? About none. And that sets the tone for the discussion. It's not surprising then, that posts in such threads are very rarely thoughtful and well constructed.[/quote]

I understand where you're coming from but those topics that reference other sites provide an opportunity to discuss current events and news, much like you would in an every day conversation. I think a better solution would be to put a greater emphasis on sections of the forum where original articles and analysis are highlighted or even required. In some respects that is already happening, as several forum topics have been brought to the front page with user comments highlighted.

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The voting system on reddit makes it easy to find the better posts, at least that's my experience from going there from time to time. The stuff worth reading gets pushed up, the stuff that doesn't stays in the dark. The "Like" system on Neowin in my opinion doesn't work. It doesn't help find good quality posts as it doesn't move or highlight them in a significant way, visually, posts are always in strict chronological order. I don't think a voting system adds much to a traditional forum like this.

[quote]I still think there's a lot to like about Neowin's community. You'll always have members that are immature or unwilling to respond to reason but that's part of the internet.[/quote]I agree, I would have left long ago otherwise. :)

[quote]I understand where you're coming from but those topics that reference other sites provide an opportunity to discuss current events and news, much like you would in an every day conversation. I think a better solution would be to put a greater emphasis on sections of the forum where original articles and analysis are highlighted or even required. In some respects that is already happening, as several forum topics have been brought to the front page with user comments highlighted.[/quote]The problem isn't linking or quoting a news article, it's just to not put any constructive thought in the post. Why are you even posting this news piece? You wouldn't start an everyday conversation by saying "www.anewssite.com/anarticle.html".

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[quote]I know I engage on some pointless "fights" on this site sometimes even though it's not worth my time nor all the braincells that die in the crossfire but somehow "arguing" with people seems to be built into me and sometimes I just can't walk away, I'll try to improve myself on this.[/quote]


Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooo! One of the reasons I come to this forum is to see all of the fights and arguments. Esp. in the real news/domestic politics area.

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[quote name='alwaysonacoffebreak' timestamp='1364036868' post='595593592']
[size=4]This is one of those TL;DR threads but oh well [/size] :)
[size=4][/quote][/size]

[size=4]At least you got one thing right. Hehe, just teasing. I like this place. If I didn't I wouldn't keep coming back. It has it's good and it's bad, just like everything else.[/size]

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[quote name='maxslaterrobins' timestamp='1364062197' post='595594000']
I cover Apple here, which is a difficult thing to cover (not many like Apple) so I try and fight the corner as much as I can. I'll tone it down a bit, though. Thanks for the feedback from the whole Neowin crew!
[/quote]

I'm sure Apple is a hard topic to cover over here, or anywhere in that matter but we can't please everyone :) Thanks for understanding and I really hope you didn't take my post as an offense to you. :)

Remixed

[quote]I kinda wanna make a neowin exclusive review for a couple things... but I don't know if any of you would truly appreciate it.[/quote]

Why do you think that? I doubt anyone would mind, I'll read reviews here no matter who writes them and appreciate the work and time put into it so I'd say go ahead :)
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Lot of misunderstandings could be solved but people actually reading and understanding what someone says before replying.

As far as the writers, I think everything should be marked as rumor or alleged until it is actually proven to be fact. I also think that topics should be made to describe what the article is about, not adding words to get people to post. If you include words like "slammed" in the title, whoever you are talking about the fans will come out and make a big deal about it. I know that topics are supposed to make people want to post...but do you want nice, kind, mature posts...or angry upset posts? Yea, the internet is full of trolls and mean people...thats how it is...but why promote that attitude when you dont have to. People just react badly with certain headlines and topics that are marked/appear to be fact when actually they are rumor or false.

As far as rude members are concerned, I just ignore them for the most part. Yea, I get in to it every now and then with someone, but I am only human. I voice my opinions and if someone cannot handle that, or respond in a mature way, then that is their problem.
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