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My thoughts on this site, writers, members and more..


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#16 Marshall

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 15:37

Really enjoyed your post alwaysonacoffeebreak and agree with most of your points.

DirtyLarry is spot on when it comes to the writers. It's a daunting, time-consuming and tedious task that I applaud them for. I think many overlook how hard the writers work on their pieces.

As for the fanboyism, insults, trolling and disrespect, that's just the nature of the internet today. Many like to put the blame on Neowin, but this problem exists in all communities where people are openly giving their opinion. Sad to say, it's the culture we live in now and dealing with it requires effort and teamwork.

Don't forget though, YOU are part of the team. Hitting the report button on someone who is breaking the rules is a crucial part of eliminating the problems quickly. As has been stated many times in the past, Mods can't be everywhere at once. :)

Regards


#17 remixedcat

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 17:40

I kinda wanna make a neowin exclusive review for a couple things... but I don't know if any of you would truly appreciate it. :(

#18 Andre S.

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 17:49

I also would like to point out that sometimes the news titles are sensationalist or even borderline trollish - like that one recently saying a big name in the industry "hates" the Nexus 7's size. Articles themselves can be incredibly biased especially when it comes to Microsoft vs the European Union. Ok, you like Microsoft, you don't like the European Union, but I thought this was supposed to be journalism, even if "unprofessional".

It doesn't help the tone and content of the comments when the articles themselves wander into negative editorial piece territority. We should stick more to facts and presenting both sides of the medal when the article is about some dispute.

As for the community, I've been a part of it for 8 years now and beyond my personal changes in taste, as Dirty Larry mentionned, I think the general post quality level has gone down. When someone posts a news report about some scientific discovery and the only thing people reply with are 4chan-style pictures and pseudo-funny one-liners, I can't help but wonder why we even tolerate this type of behavior. It's too easy to say it's the internet. There are high quality community-driven websites on the internet; the stackexchange model works very well, reddit works quite well, but these vote-based models couldn't apply here.

What I'd like to see is forum rules and moderation in the style of Teamliquid. A few excerpts:

1. THIS IS OUR HOUSE
You are our guests. We will make all attempts to treat everyone with due respect and to accommodate everyone's wishes as far as reasonably possible. But, this is a private site. We are not funded by any governments. This means we run the site the way we see fit. We are not obligated to observe anyone's notions of "free speech" or even "fairness." We try of course, and that's why we're consistently considered one of the best gaming sites on the web, and you are always free to give us suggestions (Website Feedback Forum). But, we have our limits. If we don't like you, we simply ban you.

3. THOU SHALL THINK BEFORE POSTING
Please, think before you chime in with your opinion on a given post or series of posts. There will usually be some history behind a given exchange in our forums, so take the time to observe what might really be going on and put the conversation into context before you decide who's "right" and who's "wrong." Above all, take into account who is posting - context is everything. Chirping in with your grossly uninformed opinions will only make you look dumb and irritate the heck out of the people who do know what's going on.

4. THOU SHALL CONTRIBUTE TO THE SITE
Contribute to the site. Everyone should pitch in. Some people contribute by being helpful when someone posts a question. Some people contribute by writing interesting posts that stimulate discussion or by uploading relevant and useful facts and information. Some people contribute by posting news from the gaming world. Others contribute by providing resources allowing us all to enjoy this game. Still others contribute by simply making everyone laugh. Contribution can take many forms and there's no single prescribed way to go about it. But, like good micro, we know it when we see it. Many contributors will have stars or special icons by their name. It's not a license to do anything they want, but good contributors will always get favorable treatment.

For you this means, when you create a new thread, make sure to include content worth discussing in it. A link or youtube video is not enough. An opening post should set the tone for discussion by being thoughtful and well constructed. We will not hesitate to close threads that don't have enough OP content.


Consider only this: "We will not hesitate to close threads that don't have enough OP content." How many threads on Neowin.net have any OP content, at all? Half of the threads here are just short excerpts of a news article on another site, which has its own comment thread, and so here we start another comment thread about the same news article, except it's basically just about the title of the article and the one or two sentences selected from it, since very few actually click the link and read the entire thing before posting their opinion.

"An opening post should set the tone for discussion by being thoughtful and well constructed." How much thought and construction is there in a link and short excerpt? About none. And that sets the tone for the discussion. It's not surprising then, that posts in such threads are very rarely thoughtful and well constructed.

#19 maxslaterrobins

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 18:09

Max-Slater - Well..I don't know how to say this so it won't come out wrong and sure as hell don't take this as an offense, I'm not trying to offend no one. There was a long discussion about Nokia vs Apple piece you wrote here (I think it was about the "faults reported" or something similar) but for me it seemed like you were a bit biased towards one than the other. That's just my opinion, maybe it was me who was biased? Who knows..


I cover Apple here, which is a difficult thing to cover (not many like Apple) so I try and fight the corner as much as I can. I'll tone it down a bit, though. Thanks for the feedback from the whole Neowin crew!

#20 theyarecomingforyou

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 18:22

I also would like to point out that sometimes the news titles are sensationalist or even borderline trollish - like that one recently saying a big name in the industry "hates" the Nexus 7's size. Articles themselves can be incredibly biased especially when it comes to Microsoft vs the European Union. Ok, you like Microsoft, you don't like the European Union, but I thought this was supposed to be journalism, even if "unprofessional".

It doesn't help the tone and content of the comments when the articles themselves wander into negative editorial piece territority. We should stick more to facts and presenting both sides of the medal when the article is about some dispute.


Agreed.

As for the community, I've been a part of it for 8 years now and beyond my personal changes in taste, as Dirty Larry mentionned, I think the general post quality level has gone down.


I'm really not sure about that. Don't forget that Neowin was a much smaller site back then and didn't have as many members, so while the number of immature / ridiculous posts may have increased in number that doesn't mean they're increased in relation to the number of users. At the same time I've seen more people making articulate points, providing sources to backup the assertions they make and contributing to the site and I think the Like system has helped highlight those users. Moderators are also more active than before, jumping in to clean topics before they get derailed and closing them when they do. It's also worth bearing in mind that there didn't used to be as much emphasis on non-tech subjects in the forums and when you start discussing politics and real world events that's always going to generate more disagreements.

I still think there's a lot to like about Neowin's community. You'll always have members that are immature or unwilling to respond to reason but that's part of the internet.

There are high quality community-driven websites on the internet; the stackexchange model works very well, reddit works quite well, but these vote-based models couldn't apply here.


I wouldn't use reddit as an example of a "high quality" community.

Consider only this: "We will not hesitate to close threads that don't have enough OP content." How many threads on Neowin.net have any OP content, at all? Half of the threads here are just short excerpts of a news article on another site, which has its own comment thread, and so here we start another comment thread about the same news article, except it's basically just about the title of the article and the one or two sentences selected from it, since very few actually click the link and read the entire thing before posting their opinion.

"An opening post should set the tone for discussion by being thoughtful and well constructed." How much thought and construction is there in a link and short excerpt? About none. And that sets the tone for the discussion. It's not surprising then, that posts in such threads are very rarely thoughtful and well constructed.


I understand where you're coming from but those topics that reference other sites provide an opportunity to discuss current events and news, much like you would in an every day conversation. I think a better solution would be to put a greater emphasis on sections of the forum where original articles and analysis are highlighted or even required. In some respects that is already happening, as several forum topics have been brought to the front page with user comments highlighted.

#21 Andre S.

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 18:59

The voting system on reddit makes it easy to find the better posts, at least that's my experience from going there from time to time. The stuff worth reading gets pushed up, the stuff that doesn't stays in the dark. The "Like" system on Neowin in my opinion doesn't work. It doesn't help find good quality posts as it doesn't move or highlight them in a significant way, visually, posts are always in strict chronological order. I don't think a voting system adds much to a traditional forum like this.

I still think there's a lot to like about Neowin's community. You'll always have members that are immature or unwilling to respond to reason but that's part of the internet.

I agree, I would have left long ago otherwise. :)

I understand where you're coming from but those topics that reference other sites provide an opportunity to discuss current events and news, much like you would in an every day conversation. I think a better solution would be to put a greater emphasis on sections of the forum where original articles and analysis are highlighted or even required. In some respects that is already happening, as several forum topics have been brought to the front page with user comments highlighted.

The problem isn't linking or quoting a news article, it's just to not put any constructive thought in the post. Why are you even posting this news piece? You wouldn't start an everyday conversation by saying "www.anewssite.com/anarticle.html".

#22 compl3x

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 22:44

I know I engage on some pointless "fights" on this site sometimes even though it's not worth my time nor all the braincells that die in the crossfire but somehow "arguing" with people seems to be built into me and sometimes I just can't walk away, I'll try to improve myself on this.



Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooo! One of the reasons I come to this forum is to see all of the fights and arguments. Esp. in the real news/domestic politics area.

#23 Growled

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 03:13

This is one of those TL;DR threads but oh well :)



At least you got one thing right. Hehe, just teasing. I like this place. If I didn't I wouldn't keep coming back. It has it's good and it's bad, just like everything else.

#24 OP alwaysonacoffebreak

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 09:23

I cover Apple here, which is a difficult thing to cover (not many like Apple) so I try and fight the corner as much as I can. I'll tone it down a bit, though. Thanks for the feedback from the whole Neowin crew!


I'm sure Apple is a hard topic to cover over here, or anywhere in that matter but we can't please everyone :) Thanks for understanding and I really hope you didn't take my post as an offense to you. :)

Remixed

I kinda wanna make a neowin exclusive review for a couple things... but I don't know if any of you would truly appreciate it.


Why do you think that? I doubt anyone would mind, I'll read reviews here no matter who writes them and appreciate the work and time put into it so I'd say go ahead :)

#25 +techbeck

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 12:48

Lot of misunderstandings could be solved but people actually reading and understanding what someone says before replying.

As far as the writers, I think everything should be marked as rumor or alleged until it is actually proven to be fact. I also think that topics should be made to describe what the article is about, not adding words to get people to post. If you include words like "slammed" in the title, whoever you are talking about the fans will come out and make a big deal about it. I know that topics are supposed to make people want to post...but do you want nice, kind, mature posts...or angry upset posts? Yea, the internet is full of trolls and mean people...thats how it is...but why promote that attitude when you dont have to. People just react badly with certain headlines and topics that are marked/appear to be fact when actually they are rumor or false.

As far as rude members are concerned, I just ignore them for the most part. Yea, I get in to it every now and then with someone, but I am only human. I voice my opinions and if someone cannot handle that, or respond in a mature way, then that is their problem.

#26 Steven P.

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 13:32

Lot of misunderstandings could be solved but people actually reading and understanding what someone says before replying.

As far as the writers, I think everything should be marked as rumor or alleged until it is actually proven to be fact. I also think that topics should be made to describe what the article is about, not adding words to get people to post. If you include words like "slammed" in the title, whoever you are talking about the fans will come out and make a big deal about it. I know that topics are supposed to make people want to post...but do you want nice, kind, mature posts...or angry upset posts? Yea, the internet is full of trolls and mean people...thats how it is...but why promote that attitude when you dont have to. People just react badly with certain headlines and topics that are marked/appear to be fact when actually they are rumor or false.

As far as rude members are concerned, I just ignore them for the most part. Yea, I get in to it every now and then with someone, but I am only human. I voice my opinions and if someone cannot handle that, or respond in a mature way, then that is their problem.


I agree with you and I'll just say I discourage title click baiting and we could do a lot worse! I've edited a few titles (before approving) myself because I thought they were too "baity" and we've even edited titles based on comment feedback as well, anyway :p

#27 +techbeck

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 12:28

I swear every day and almost every thread it seems that people cannot act maturely and actually have a conversation with others without insulting someone. Someone expresses their opinion or how they perceive things, they get called an idiot or something like that. Must be nice that the members who are insulting others know everything there is. Kind of wonder how these same people are in real life without having a screen to hide behind. Then there are members that are purposely trolling and their posts serve no purpose other than to stir up trouble. I dont normally call people out of trolling, but hell, maybe I should start. Hell, I had a member email me the other day saying he does purposely troll just so he can get a laugh, which is against the rules here.

Everyone has a company/product that they like over another. Some are more passionate about it than others. I get and understand that but if you cannot converse with someone without throwing out insults, trolling, or anything else that goes against what a civilized person would do, then dont post, move on, and do something else. Or is your life that miserable that you must drag others with it?

I agree with you and I'll just say I discourage title click baiting and we could do a lot worse! I've edited a few titles (before approving) myself because I thought they were too "baity" and we've even edited titles based on comment feedback as well, anyway :p


Its not only the Neowin writers that do that. Members that hate a certain company or product will change the title of the post as well. I know you cannot control everything here, but I do appreciate the efforts the team has been making. So thanks :)

#28 theyarecomingforyou

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 12:41

I dont normally call people out of trolling, but hell, maybe I should start.


I always assumed calling somebody a troll was considered a personal attack and therefore against the rules. It might have changed but I seem to recall moderators being strict on it. Either way it's not worth it, as it's not contributing to the discussion. It's annoying but it's best not letting those sorts of people know you're annoyed.

Hell, I had a member email me the other day saying he does purposely troll just so he can get a laugh, which is against the rules here.


I'd be interested to know who that is, though I appreciate you can't post that in public. Also, can't you report PM posts to moderators? I don't know if they'd take action based on your description but I think moderators should be made aware of such members.

#29 +techbeck

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 12:45

I always assumed calling somebody a troll was considered a personal attack and therefore against the rules. It might have changed but I seem to recall moderators being strict on it. Either way it's not worth it, as it's not contributing to the discussion. It's annoying but it's best not letting those sorts of people know you're annoyed.


Was mostly joking. I dont call members trolls....just getting frustrated at the number if immature people who have computers and internet access. People need to grow up or stay offline.

I'd be interested to know who that is, though I appreciate you can't post that in public. Also, can't you report PM posts to moderators? I don't know if they'd take action based on your description but I think moderators should be made aware of such members.


Naw, wont say in private either. If it comes down to be an issue, I will report it like I have so many posts. I have the PM saved.

#30 McCordRm

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 12:49

I'm not a troll... I just hate everybody.