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AnandTech: Xbox One vs. PS4 - Hardware comparison


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#286 Blackhearted

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 17:02

Confirmation on the gpu clock speed really isn't needed, tbh. Simply because the clock speeds needed for a 768sp gpu to hit an equal 1.8tflops are way too high for a console.


#287 TheLegendOfMart

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 17:08

As of the Playstation Meeting the PS4 has it clocked at 1.6GHz, Microsoft for all I know could have overclocked it but they are both trying to fit under a thermal envelope, Microsoft doesn't want another RROD situation. I'd be very surprised if either was clocked higher than the base clock that AMD has set.

The only thing confirmed by the word of Microsoft are the 768 Stream Processors and it is a currently theory that the GPU is running at 800MHz as they are trying to fit within a thermal envelope, all of this information was in the leaks of both consoles which has turned out to be 99% correct so far so we know it is GCN 1.0 as AMD don't do an APU with GCN 1.1, there is an APU coming out "this year" that has an 8xxx series GPU in but seeing as these consoles have been in development for years it's unlikely they will have one of the new APUs.

I don't have concrete information but my theory is that:

1) We know the APU is SoC, everything is contained on die, there is a physical limit to how much you can fit into the die which Microsoft has put a weaker GPU in saving space for the very costly ESRAM and Move Engines
2) They are betting on the cloud, they are trying to offset processing so they don't have to have a more powerful GPU

"The box will pop on and come to your home page or wherever you were last. In order to do that in an efficient way, you have to architect all of that into the box up front. A lot of it is in the SoC," Holmdahl says.

That SoC contains both the CPU and GPU, as well as embedded ESRAM; the first two components are based on an AMD design, and custom-built into an SoC with that embedded memory.



Your theory that the ESRAM is external to the die is incorrect.

The console runs in multiple power states, which means it runs in a low-wattage setting when not in use. (Microsoft wouldn't give us specifics other than to say, "The system is designed for an SoC up to about 100W, but will vary on the scenario.")


http://www.engadget....an-inside-look/

Straight from the horses mouth, they are trying to fit within a 100W TDP envelope which is why I believe neither the CPU or GPU will be running any faster than PS4.

#288 ctrl_alt_delete

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 17:25

I'm curious where those reviews you claim show a 7790oc beating a 7850 are, cause i sure can't find one. Of course, it doesn't really matter though, since the one isn't a 7790 anyway.


I saw it over at xbitlabs. granted the OCed 7790 didn't sweep the floor but it did win some, mostly with AA off.
it won in 3dmark 2011.
it was close in 3dmark 2013, but they said it was hampered by it's low onboard memory.
it was also close in unigine valley bench

not by much but also in certain games like resident evil 6, stalker, F1 2012, borderlands 2 and some others.
when all was said and done, the two cards averaged out at 48.3 and 49.8 with AA off. but with AA4x no it's 27 to 32
anyways, the 7790 OC lost more than it won. but my point was it still beat it.

also keep in mind that the ps4's gpu is underclocked down to 800mhz so it won't give the same results as the test results show on the charts it would be a bit less.

http://www.xbitlabs....50ti-boost.html

#289 TheLegendOfMart

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 17:28

The PS4 GPU isn't a 7850, it is just the closest comparison we have and the Xbox GPU isn't anywhere near 7790 as it's a GCN1.0 not 1.1. The rumours are that the PS4 GPU is 7970M with 2 less CU.

#290 ctrl_alt_delete

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 18:01

The PS4 GPU isn't a 7850, it is just the closest comparison we have and the Xbox GPU isn't anywhere near 7790 as it's a GCN1.0 not 1.1. The rumours are that the PS4 GPU is 7970M with 2 less CU.


if you're going to say the xbox one is more closer to a 7790 then I'm sure you know that the 7790 runs at 1000mhz (1ghz) clock speed. therefore going by your formula the xbox would be 768 x 1000 x 2 = 1.54tflops and not 1.23

#291 TheLegendOfMart

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 18:03

What?

You are the one saying Xbox is closer to 7790 when in reality it isn't. It's closer to 7770 but it is just a comparison, the APUs use mobility versions of the 7xxx series.

Also it's not 'my' formula, it is 'the' formula. I like how you call me out and basically tell me I don't know what I'm talking about and you ignore most of what I post to try and fit your own theories.

I'm done here.

#292 ctrl_alt_delete

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 18:51

What?

You are the one saying Xbox is closer to 7790 when in reality it isn't. It's closer to 7770 but it is just a comparison, the APUs use mobility versions of the 7xxx series.

Also it's not 'my' formula, it is 'the' formula. I like how you call me out and basically tell me I don't know what I'm talking about and you ignore most of what I post to try and fit your own theories.

I'm done here.


you're saying that I ignore most of what you said to fit my theories? while you're not doing the same? I'm puzzled as in how you get to the point to know that the xbox One's gpu is more closer to a 7770 for all we know it could be a chopped down 7950.

And when have I said that the esram was external. I've been adding up transistor count so how could I say the esram was external. Also anandtech estimates the transistor count for the esram was 1.6billion. I thought it was 1.8.



#293 TheLegendOfMart

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 19:16

You do ignore what I say, it's clear you don't have a clue when you think TFLOPs are calculated by timesing the core count by CPU clock speed.

It doesn't matter what it is chopped down from, all we need to know is how many cores, rops, tmus, clock speed it has and we can deduce a relative level of performance from that whether it is a cut down 7990 or a built up 7350.

I know for a fact that it's not a GCN 1.1 GPU as there are no mobile 1.1s.

From the specs of both machines we can do a relative comparison between the 7770 and 7850 as they are the closest GPUs and have a similar gap in specs as the PS4 and Xbox One.

Also Anand from Anandtech website says that it would require a 66% jump in TDP to run the Jaguar at 2GHz instead of 1.6GHz so that disproves another one of your "theories"

#294 ctrl_alt_delete

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 20:47

You do ignore what I say, it's clear you don't have a clue when you think TFLOPs are calculated by timesing the core count by CPU clock speed.

It doesn't matter what it is chopped down from, all we need to know is how many cores, rops, tmus, clock speed it has and we can deduce a relative level of performance from that whether it is a cut down 7990 or a built up 7350.

I know for a fact that it's not a GCN 1.1 GPU as there are no mobile 1.1s.

From the specs of both machines we can do a relative comparison between the 7770 and 7850 as they are the closest GPUs and have a similar gap in specs as the PS4 and Xbox One.

Also Anand from Anandtech website says that it would require a 66% jump in TDP to run the Jaguar at 2GHz instead of 1.6GHz so that disproves another one of your "theories"


With the gcn 1.1 I was going by what anand wrote about the 7790.
also yeah it could be and modified 7350 who knows, not I, not you, not anyone but Microsoft. again, most what we're doing are just pure guestimations .
About the jump in TDP AGAIN maybe that explains the huge heatsink and fan Microsoft put in the x1 that I've been mentioning. throughout their system Microsoft uses low powered parts yet they have a really big heatsink? sounds to me they increased something be it cpu clock speeds or gpu clock speeds but something got increased.

I came across this online:

"The PS4's GPU can read/write to it's 8GB of GDDR5 at 176 GB/sec only

The ONES GPU can read/write it's 8GB of DDR3 at 68 GB/Sec
The ONES GPU can read/write it's 32MB SRam frame buffer at 102GB/sec
The ONES GPU can read/write to its 4 Move engines at 25.6 GB/Sec

The ONE GPU can read/write to all of the above simultaneously

Assuming the PS4 wants games to look as good as XO games with no compromises, they will need to allocate 102GB/Sec to the framebuffer (1080p game is 16mb)

This leaves us with the remaining bandwidth

The PS4's GPU can read/write to it's 8GB of GDDR5 at 74 GB/sec

The ONES GPU can read/write it's 8GB of DDR3 at 68 GB/Sec
The ONES GPU can read/write to its 4 Move engines at 25.6 GB/Sec


Now if this is the case then bandwidth wise the Xbox technically has better throughput. Which is why Microsoft mentioned 200GBs because all these memory pools can all be accessed simultaneously.
When microsoft quoted 200 Anand wrote that "this is not how it works in the real world" but I think he was looking at it in the traditional sense as in oneway throughput. I need to ask him about this and how plausible it is.

He did say the Xbox one has a more complicated setup while Sony went with a more simpler "increase the memory lane and call it a day"

#295 TheLegendOfMart

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 07:13

Can't be bothered discussing it any more, people have already erroneously made their mind up, coming up with all sorts of fantastical theories about magic circuitry that Microsoft might have put in the machine.

At the end of the day PS4 is 50% faster and Microsoft are betting on the cloud to help them bridge the gap and I think it's a huge mistake.

#296 MorganX

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 07:28

Can't be bothered discussing it any more, people have already erroneously made their mind up, coming up with all sorts of fantastical theories about magic circuitry that Microsoft might have put in the machine.

At the end of the day PS4 is 50% faster and Microsoft are betting on the cloud to help them bridge the gap and I think it's a huge mistake.


I actually think Microsoft is just trying to innovate and find a way to utilize the cloud in an effort to actually make it useable. They've already said what they may use it for and that is not, and cannot ever be real time rendering. Not only that, the difference in GPU power does not require the use of the cloud to make up the difference. You're just being fantastic with the whole the XBOX will perform at 50% of the effective performance of the PS4 so they need cloud processing to make up for it. That's actually a hilarious position to take. And I'm not even that big on Xbox One. I'll probably go from my current Xbox to a PS3 with Xbox controller and skip next gen unless something dramatic happens.

Get yourself a PC with identical GPUs one with GDDR3 and one with GDDR5 and run benchmarks. See if the performance differences are anywhere near the theoretical differences. The PS4 will have an edge, but nowhere near leapfrog or 50% overall performance gain. In fact, have multiple OS make may many functions feel faster on Xbox One.

Remember how technically superior the Cell is in PS3, yet how troublesome XMB functions during games was?

#297 TheLegendOfMart

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 07:38

Get yourself a PC with identical GPUs one with GDDR3 and one with GDDR5 and run benchmarks. See if the performance differences are anywhere near the theoretical differences. The PS4 will have an edge, but nowhere near leapfrog or 50% overall performance gain. In fact, have multiple OS make may many functions feel faster on Xbox One.

It's not just the difference in memory bandwidth. The Xbox One GPU has 384 less cores, less TMUs, half the ROPS, half the memory bus width. If we do a very unscientific comparison with relative GPUs you are looking at 7750/7770 vs 7850 which at 1080P with graphics on full a good 25FPS~ difference between Xbox One and PS4.

Obviously some of the comparisons in this image are off as they don't exactly match the specs but for arguments sake 7850 vs 7770:
7850.jpg

#298 ctrl_alt_delete

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 13:39

It's not just the difference in memory bandwidth. The Xbox One GPU has 384 less cores, less TMUs, half the ROPS, half the memory bus width. If we do a very unscientific comparison with relative GPUs you are looking at 7750/7770 vs 7850 which at 1080P with graphics on full a good 25FPS~ difference between Xbox One and PS4.

Obviously some of the comparisons in this image are off as they don't exactly match the specs but for arguments sake 7850 vs 7770:


So you're still believing your theory that the xO has a 7770/7790 graphics core huh.
But do you think a 7790 can push 1080p at 60fps from a demanding game like forza?
About the memory bandwidth I think I've already proven that the PS4 doesn't have an edge here and that the Xbox One seems to be the one with the edge (waiting on anand 's reply.

#299 ctrl_alt_delete

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 13:57

Can't be bothered discussing it any more, people have already erroneously made their mind up, coming up with all sorts of fantastical theories about magic circuitry that Microsoft might have put in the machine.

At the end of the day PS4 is 50% faster and Microsoft are betting on the cloud to help them bridge the gap and I think it's a huge mistake.


So you admit that all you've been doing is trying to convince others from buying the Xbox One then? Well whatever floats your boat.
Since the is 50% faster then I'm guessing we should see exceptionally beautiful and performing games when compared to the Xbox One right? I'm talking about 1st party not 3rd party games.

From what I've seen of the first party games on ps4 so far isn't fallowing that trajectory of being "50% faster"

#300 TheLegendOfMart

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 14:28

So you're still believing your theory that the xO has a 7770/7790 graphics core huh.
But do you think a 7790 can push 1080p at 60fps from a demanding game like forza?
About the memory bandwidth I think I've already proven that the PS4 doesn't have an edge here and that the Xbox One seems to be the one with the edge (waiting on anand 's reply.


I never once said the xO will have 7790, 7770 is a more realistic comparison but in reality it will be somewhere inbetween as the 7770 has less cores than the xO GPU. For comparisons sake the gap between 7770 and 7850 is going to be similar to the gap between xO and PS4 which is 25FPS+ at 1080p.

Not sure what you are trying to say with your memory bandwidth post, memory bandwidth just means how much data you can pass from system memory to CPU/GPU, the xO is still constrained by its weak GPU and it's not as simple as just adding all the memory bandwidth together just like you can't say that it has a 12.8GHz CPU just because it has 8x 1.6GHz cores.

Mark Cerny the Chief Architect of PS4 did consider a 128-Bit memory bus and EDRAM for PS4 but realised that it would be too complex for developers to take advantage of hence why PS4 has a 256-bit bus with GDDR5.

The PS4 has an additional 20GB/s bus that bypasses the GPU cache if you wanted to do a ###### for tat erroneous adding up of memory bandwidth the xO doesn't have any advantage.

So you admit that all you've been doing is trying to convince others from buying the Xbox One then? Well whatever floats your boat.
Since the is 50% faster then I'm guessing we should see exceptionally beautiful and performing games when compared to the Xbox One right? I'm talking about 1st party not 3rd party games.

From what I've seen of the first party games on ps4 so far isn't fallowing that trajectory of being "50% faster"

So you've seen a couple of pre-alpha PS4 games, no actual ingame footage (as they were running on PCs) and all the pre-rendered crap at the xO reveal and can say with confidence there won't be a gap in performance?

Cerny gave the PS4 an extra bus to bypass the cache, he has enhanced the L2 cache so that graphics and compute threads can be run in parallel and he has increased the compute command "sources" from 2 to 64. As well as the extra 384 cores, double the memory bus width, double the rops, more tmus, no amount of memory bandwidth or magic extra logic is going to bridge the gap.

I don't give a toss if someone buys Xbox One or not I am just making sure people have an informed decision, I don't pull random theories from the air like yourself to desperately try and justify your decision to get an Xbox One.



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