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I do appreciate seeing it working in its early form, but unfortunately this is one feature where a demo like this offers us little to preview the quality of the service. At least it shows that it can work in the most ideal situations.

There is simply no way to demo how this will work when real users are accessing it across the internet. I hope once the beta starts, we should get more useful impressions.

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If it's linked to PS+, you should be able to play any PS1/2/3 game you own through this service if you have PS+. Anything less would be unacceptable.

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It will be rent/stream, like Netflix. Very much doubt anyone will be getting an option to buy anything.

And playing TLoU on a tablet? :/

I was thinking about the possibilities here. If Sony does push this to all tablets via an app (such iOS, Android, and even Win8), then it would be easy enough to hook a tablet up to any TV via an hdmi output and then hook a controller up to the tablet as well.

In effect, a person could purchase this service and never buy a playstation console.

If this kind of service does work, it could be a preview of how the console as we know it goes away, replaced by smaller devices that just get fed games via streaming down the road. I still think that is years away, but who knows, Sony may be thinking long term. I know MS has hinted at such a future.

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If it's linked to PS+, you should be able to play any PS1/2/3 game you own through this service if you have PS+. Anything less would be unacceptable.

Well I think the problem is that Sony probably can't afford to just offer this service without an extra charge. Gaikai cost them quite a chunk of change after all, not to mention the ongoing server/bandwidth costs. I kind of doubt the $50 a year from ps+ users is enough.

Also, it may be tough for Sony to convince 3rd party developers/publishers to allow their games to be offered at all.

But who knows, maybe Sony intends to surprise us all and say at E3 that ps+ subscribers get access to this service for no additional charge.

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As far as 'The Cloud' improving offline gaming...where did you hear that. And please don't say forum posters. :laugh:

 

No, it was Phil Harrison who said that.

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IF, and that's a huge IF, streaming works, why buy a console at all?

 

They should just work on cranking out emulators for old games. 

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*=Games that involve jumping over pits, volcano flow, and anything else of that nature will not be available due to input lag. /s

This sounds awesome, to an extent. This eliminates a ton of people due to bandwith limits, and or data caps.

Remember, it was only 6months ago or so, that we heard the cries of the world complaining about their shoddy internet connections.

I still think some kind of native device on the client end should be available, to at least cache. It can be as small as a magic jack device that goes in the HDMI port, but also has an Ethernet jack on it as well.

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*=Games that involve jumping over pits, volcano flow, and anything else of that nature will not be available due to input lag. /s

This sounds awesome, to an extent. This eliminates a ton of people due to bandwith limits, and or data caps.

Remember, it was only 6months ago or so, that we heard the cries of the world complaining about their shoddy internet connections.

I still think some kind of native device on the client end should be available, to at least cache. It can be as small as a magic jack device that goes in the HDMI port, but also has an Ethernet jack on it as well.

 

Again, you're making a bad comparison.  The cries were because the console required the internet connection and daily check-in to be able to play any game, regardless of actual internet connectivity (the next Fallout, for instance).  Without that connection, you have a nice $500 useless box.

 

This is an optional pay service much like Netflix, using existing technology that Gaikai (and OnLive) have been using for a couple of years now, and the service won't even work unless you have at least a 5Mb connection.

 

How it's implemented, however, might make or break it.  Many of us would like to see it used for backwards compatibility for games we already own, but that seems doubtful.  Microsoft, on the other hand, has something similar in the works (didn't they show Halo already via streaming) and could take it in that direction using it for backwards compatibility.

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No, it was Phil Harrison who said that.

He said that OFFLINE games would be better thanks to the cloud tech?

If he said that, then he misspoke, since an offline game cannot, by definition, use internet services at all.

If he said single and multiplayer games can benefit, then that makes more sense. Forza 5 benefits even if your playing by yourself.

 

 

IF, and that's a huge IF, streaming works, why buy a console at all?

 

They should just work on cranking out emulators for old games.

You stumbled upon the big question.

What if that's the point? I mentioned above that MS has hinted at such a future, so why not Sony as well.

If a service like this can be rolled out now and the kinks worked out over the course of say 3 or 4 years. During that time, maybe more users finally get internet connections that can fully utilize such a service. This could lead to the 'next gen' not being a traditional console at all.

Both MS and Sony could be tired of playing the high cost hardware game. If they can offer say a $100 small device that can access all of the media services and game streaming for a subscription fee and not deal with big losses due to building these pc-like boxes, they may take it.

It would be ironic that as Valve tries to move in on the traditional console market, Sony (and MS) move away from that and towards a streaming future.

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IF, and that's a huge IF, streaming works, why buy a console at all?

 

They should just work on cranking out emulators for old games. 

 

Technically you won't need to.  It's being implemented in Bravia TV's as well.

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I still think some kind of native device on the client end should be available, to at least cache. It can be as small as a magic jack device that goes in the HDMI port, but also has an Ethernet jack on it as well.

Unfortunately that is impossible to do if they are going to actually render the game on a server. The only cache that would exist is the output coming in from the service, which wouldn't be insanely large anyway.

If you were to say download the game to your console, you still couldn't play it without hardware in the console that could play ps3/ps2/ps1 games. Sony obviously has no interest in doing that.

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He said that OFFLINE games would be better thanks to the cloud tech?

If he said that, then he misspoke, since an offline game cannot, by definition, use internet services at all.

If he said single and multiplayer games can benefit, then that makes more sense. Forza 5 benefits even if your playing by yourself.

 

He said that connecting to the cloud could increase the graphics.  While many of us mocked, it was explained that by offloading AI / lighting / etc., to the cloud, the console would free up compute cycles to improve graphics.

 

However, if you're taken off the cloud (internet connection, LIVE going down, etc.), does your console take a hit and graphics lose fidelity?  Does that mean a game taken offline wouldn't be as good as one connected to the cloud?

 

(Nevermind the idea of trying to match up at 60fps a game played half through the cloud and half from disc / HDD).

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Unfortunately that is impossible to do if they are going to actually render the game on a server. The only cache that would exist is the output coming in from the service, which wouldn't be insanely large anyway.

If you were to say download the game to your console, you still couldn't play it without hardware in the console that could play ps3/ps2/ps1 games. Sony obviously has no interest in doing that.

I get what your saying. But this is going to cause some grumbles in areas where infrastructures aren't exactly robust for the time being.

Sony is shrinking hard while the iron is hot (in which they should do) ,but they also better be careful not to drop it on their own foot.

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He said that connecting to the cloud could increase the graphics.  While many of us mocked, it was explained that by offloading AI / lighting / etc., to the cloud, the console would free up compute cycles to improve graphics.

 

However, if you're taken off the cloud (internet connection, LIVE going down, etc.), does your console take a hit and graphics lose fidelity?  Does that mean a game taken offline wouldn't be as good as one connected to the cloud?

 

(Nevermind the idea of trying to match up at 60fps a game played half through the cloud and half from disc / HDD).

Yes, I remember the part about offloading resources. The Forza team went into some detail on it because they claim that by leveraging the servers, they could do more with the AI then would be possible with just the console alone. They were able to achieve that without causing a problem if you were playing Forza offline. I believe they just cache the AI bits so you can use it offline.

It sounds like then he did not claim that using server would directly improve graphics. For some reason, some people ran with this idea that there were serious claims that games could somehow use the server for graphics processing, both those touting it as a great feature and others that used it to bash MS, thinking they had made the claim.

Basically, it all boils down to smart development. There are things you can use remote servers for and things that you cannot. Game developers and MS itself will need to be smart in how they leverage it. Of course there will be games on both consoles that will require an internet connection, but I kind of doubt any of those will lose graphical fidelity if you play them offline, if they can be played offline at all.

Although, you know, I guess it wouldn't be so strange if in the future, your game might play/look better when you are online vs offline or at least allowed to look the same unlike now. Think about it. Already today we have games that are reduced in quality when you play online. Sometimes that means reducing the resolution, effects, or framerate. Maybe at some point, a server could be leveraged to give a console that extra bit of help that allows multiplayer modes to play/look just as well as in single player. That might be impossible, but the future is full of surprises :laugh:

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I get what your saying. But this is going to cause some grumbles in areas where infrastructures aren't exactly robust for the time being.

Sony is shrinking hard while the iron is hot (in which they should do) ,but they also better be careful not to drop it on their own foot.

Well Sony is doing this in a way that allows users to get use to the idea of such a service, while at the same time offering them the 'old' way of doing things. It also allows Sony time to get the service right over perhaps years of usage. MS tried to just embrace it all now, but there were too many complications. I won't be shocked at all if Sony and MS end up on the same path. Sony will probably lead the way as MS takes the time to retool and get back on track.

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I get what your saying. But this is going to cause some grumbles in areas where infrastructures aren't exactly robust for the time being.

Sony is shrinking hard while the iron is hot (in which they should do) ,but they also better be careful not to drop it on their own foot.

It's going to cause "grumbles" everywhere, the internet as a whole has an issue with latency.

There's a reason OnLive demoed their service with the server in the room over.

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Looks to be working very well, Engadget guys say zero lag. "There was zero perceptible lag"

 

Maybe we shouldn't knock it till its actually available for all PS4 players to try first, even if its not as great as expected its a step in the right direction.

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A couple of questions. (I see it as relevant as pert of the Now service is to bring older titles to the ps4)

 

The PS4 is an eight core Jaguar Chip with 8 gig of ram, is this correct?

 

Assuming that is correct, how much more power would actually be needed to emulate ps3 locally on the machine? (backwards compatibility)

 

(I don't understand what the problem is, one can say, more power is needed, how much more, it's already 4 to 6 times more powerful than the ps3 was isn't it? What have I missed?)

 

Please if you feel the need to answer this personally, please, be nice about it.

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Looks to be working very well, Engadget guys say zero lag. "There was zero perceptible lag"

 

Maybe we shouldn't knock it till its actually available for all PS4 players to try first, even if its not as great as expected its a step in the right direction.

The reason to be skeptical right now is because that was a controlled demo. The Engadget guys made no mention of where the server was that was supplying the game to that Bravia. It could have been in the next room for all we know. Game streaming servers announced in the past were also demoed this way.

Its not a knock against them though because I think its good to show people just how great the service can be as long as the conditions are right.

The key going forward is to see if Sony can do anything to offer ideal conditions to most, if not all of its users. Doing that over the internet is very difficult.

 

 

A couple of questions. (I see it as relevant as pert of the Now service is to bring older titles to the ps4)

 

The PS4 is an eight core Jaguar Chip with 8 gig of ram, is this correct?

 

Assuming that is correct, how much more power would actually be needed to emulate ps3 locally on the machine? (backwards compatibility)

 

(I don't understand what the problem is, one can say, more power is needed, how much more, it's already 4 to 6 times more powerful than the ps3 was isn't it? What have I missed?)

 

Please if you feel the need to answer this personally, please, be nice about it.

To give you an idea of how much power is needed, it takes a powerful pc to properly emulate ps2 games and Wii games. Your talking at least an i5 and a mid range or higher video card. That gets you most games running near full speed.

PS3 games would require much more, so you see where the problem is. The PS4 may be several time more powerful, but since the hardware on the ps3 is so different, it requires so much extra power to emulate the original console's environment.

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To give you an idea of how much power is needed, it takes a powerful pc to properly emulate ps2 games and Wii games. Your talking at least an i5 and a mid range or higher video card. That gets you most games running near full speed.

PS3 games would require much more, so you see where the problem is. The PS4 may be several time more powerful, but since the hardware on the ps3 is so different, it requires so much extra power to emulate the original console's environment.

Wow more than 6 times the power?

 

I genuinely didn't know it needed to be that powerful. (I just thought Sony were just being Lazy.)

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Wow more than 6 times the power?

 

I genuinely didn't know it needed to be that powerful. (I just thought Sony were just being Lazy.)

Yeah it's that demanding.

It would probably be cheaper for Sony to just shove the ps3 hardware into the ps4 vs trying to emulate it in software.

They did that with the original ps3 to offer ps2 compatibility.

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Yeah it's that demanding.

It would probably be cheaper for Sony to just shove the ps3 hardware into the ps4 vs trying to emulate it in software.

They did that with the original ps3 to offer ps2 compatibility.

(So it wasn't an optimisation of existing hardware issue)

Well I for one, can look forward to some of my ps3 favourites on the ps4, if all goes well.

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There is no difference in how games will work in both cases, you are just splitting hairs. I am referring purely to technological challenges and not referring to mandatory/option features/services.

 

Going by my memory, this service is DOA in Europe and for people with bandwidth caps in other places (based on how many people said "why digital downloads don't work" in various threads).

 

I agree with you there, here in Australia it's pretty much the same story. HOWEVER, if Sony are really serious about getting this off the ground they could negotiate with ISPs to make PlayStation Now traffic unmetred. Services like Steam* already do this, so not a big stretch for Sony to do it too. Just all depends on how much Sony is willing to invest to make it work.

 

* Although with my ISP only certain Steam servers are unmetred and 9/10 my PC always auto connects to the metred one. Not even sure they are even doing it anymore, as my download usage for Steam is always metred now :/ but my point is it can be done. I think even some ISPs even offered XBL/PSN traffic be unmetred on some plans too.

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Maybe that's what made Gaikai worth buying is their way of streaming was further optimised and had techniques to better compress/buffer the data?  Because yes a standard streaming service is going to prove laggy for many gamers in a few parts of the world.

 

Lag isn't because of the size of the data. The compression and data size was more than acceptable on onlive allowing for even slow lines to use it. but the lag makes it unusable. 

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Looks to be working very well, Engadget guys say zero lag. "There was zero perceptible lag"

 

Maybe we shouldn't knock it till its actually available for all PS4 players to try first, even if its not as great as expected its a step in the right direction.

That's what they said about OnLive as well, of course OnLive always demoed their service with the rendering server connected via a straight switch, in that case you have <1ms of latency. In the real world where you're sending data over the internet you aren't going to have that kind of awesome latency, reducing the number of hops helps but you're still bound by the speed of light through the physical connections.

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