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Posted

The sessions for next month's Game Developer's Conference have been posted online, and there are several very intriguing offerings among them. One entitled "DirectX: Evolving Microsoft's Graphics Platform" will be hosted by Anuj Gosalia, Development Managet for Windows Graphics. The description reads:

For nearly 20 years, DirectX has been the platform used by game developers to create the fastest, most visually impressive games on the planet.

However, you asked us to do more. You asked us to bring you even closer to the metal and to do so on an unparalleled assortment of hardware. You also asked us for better tools so that you can squeeze every last drop of performance out of your PC, tablet, phone and console.

Come learn our plans to deliver.

 

 

Source: http://techreport.com/news/26090/mantle-no-more-gdc-sessions-point-to-the-next-directx

 

 

Shortly after Mantle was announced, Microsoft appeared to have its collective feathers ruffled. On the Windows App Builder blog, Microsoft adopted a defensive posture, pointing out that the Xbox One would not utilize Mantle since the new console had its own low-level API called Direct3D 11.X. When AMD evangelized Mantle early on, they would use words like

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Posted

If MS is going to show off DX12 that'd be about time, and if they take it even more low-level like Mantel is with all the benefits of greater control to developers I see a win-win here.

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Posted

All I can say is it's about freakin TIME MS started talking about their SDK plans again.  I was waiting for them to say something a long time ago.

 

They'll need to offer an actual release date before I can personally say anything about it wrt Mantle.

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Posted

while it very highly that DX12 closer to the metal than Mantle happens on xbox one (or next version of xbox),

i still have my doubt that could happens on wide variety of PC graphics hardware running windows system.

 

though closer to the metal is not new, we have Glide in the past that do that on its Voodoo graphics.

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Posted

while it very highly that DX12 closer to the metal than Mantle happens on xbox one (or next version of xbox),

i still have my doubt that could happens on wide variety of PC graphics hardware running windows system.

 

though closer to the metal is not new, we have Glide in the past that do that on its Voodoo graphics.

They'll want to have the latest and greatest version of DirectX on the Xbox One, to lessen the gap in performance if developers are able to tap into the full potention of the hardware by circumventing bottlenecks. Postponing that to the next version of Xbox... when would that be. 6-8 years from now? :p

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Posted

They did a good job with DX10 and again with 11.1 to improve performance and get closer to the hardware, if they do the same yet again with 12 then we're talking a good bit of performance gains, though I don't remember any specifics going from old DX9 to something like DX11 but I do remember they talked up the reduced overhead.

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Posted

Thanks for the links. I love reading this stuff.

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Posted

They'll want to have the latest and greatest version of DirectX on the Xbox One, to lessen the gap in performance if developers are able to tap into the full potention of the hardware by circumventing bottlenecks. Postponing that to the next version of Xbox... when would that be. 6-8 years from now? :p

New DX versions always require new hardware. DX 12 wont be on Xbox. Even the latest DX 11.2 version on PC in Win 8.1 is not on Xbox One, as the hardware is DX 11.1. They can still make other improvements to DX on the Xbox, even add new features, but they can't add all the features from 11.2 or a future DX 12 as certain things needs new hardware.

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Posted

New DX versions always require new hardware. DX 12 wont be on Xbox. Even the latest DX 11.2 version on PC in Win 8.1 is not on Xbox One, as the hardware is DX 11.1. They can still make other improvements to DX on the Xbox, even add new features, but they can't add all the features from 11.2 or a future DX 12 as certain things needs new hardware.

Given that DirectX12 is most likely already a long time into development; isn't it possible they created the custom GPU in the Xbox One so that it also supports DX12?

Seems like a huge fail if they didn't.

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Posted

Xbox doesn't need a new DX version to get closer to the metal. the xbox versions of directX have always been closer to the metal with less overhead and bigger capabilities than the PC version, a lot of the new fucntions of Mantle, is stuff consoles could already do. 

 

So the only reason to add a new DX version for the xbox would be for new features, and that might or might not require new hardware, depending on the feature.  Other than that most upgrades in regards to the xbox is done witht he SDK.


Given that DirectX12 is most likely already a long time into development; isn't it possible they created the custom GPU in the Xbox One so that it also supports DX12?

Seems like a huge fail if they didn't.

why ? with the 360 a new DX version came out just after the 360 release, the 360 did not support this, however the 360 did have an intermediate DX version that implemented a lot of the new stuff that would be in the new version. 

 

but again, when it comes to a console the DX version is more or less irrelevant anyway. 

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Posted

Xbox doesn't need a new DX version to get closer to the metal. the xbox versions of directX have always been closer to the metal with less overhead and bigger capabilities than the PC version, a lot of the new fucntions of Mantle, is stuff consoles could already do. 

 

So the only reason to add a new DX version for the xbox would be for new features, and that might or might not require new hardware, depending on the feature.  Other than that most upgrades in regards to the xbox is done witht he SDK.


why ? with the 360 a new DX version came out just after the 360 release, the 360 did not support this, however the 360 did have an intermediate DX version that implemented a lot of the new stuff that would be in the new version. 

 

but again, when it comes to a console the DX version is more or less irrelevant anyway. 

Well as long as they backport the new DX12 features that could be benificial for Xbox to the Xbox One, all will be fine I guess. I know they're already using a stripped DirectX api for the Xbox, but improvements are always welcome.

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Posted

They did a good job with DX10 and again with 11.1 to improve performance and get closer to the hardware, if they do the same yet again with 12 then we're talking a good bit of performance gains, though I don't remember any specifics going from old DX9 to something like DX11 but I do remember they talked up the reduced overhead.

What are you talking about? DirectX 10 was horrible for performance while not offering that much graphically. It also lacked adoption for those same reasons. They got it right with 11 though and now they need to do it even better. Good thing Mantle was here to kick MS into closer to the metal development on PC.

 

New DX versions always require new hardware. DX 12 wont be on Xbox. Even the latest DX 11.2 version on PC in Win 8.1 is not on Xbox One, as the hardware is DX 11.1. They can still make other improvements to DX on the Xbox, even add new features, but they can't add all the features from 11.2 or a future DX 12 as certain things needs new hardware.

That is just the way of things. You can't plan for hardware compatibility with something that doesn't exist or don't have access to. The AMD Rx series supports 11.2 btw (not that it's much of an improvement.

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Posted

What are you talking about? DirectX 10 was horrible for performance while not offering that much graphically. It also lacked adoption for those same reasons. They got it right with 11 though and now they need to do it even better. Good thing Mantle was here to kick MS into closer to the metal development on PC.

 

That is just the way of things. You can't plan for hardware compatibility with something that doesn't exist or don't have access to. The AMD Rx series supports 11.2 btw (not that it's much of an improvement.

DX10 was not the issue it was the GPU makers not having good drivers ready to take advantage of it.  They dropped the ball with WDDM 1.0 drivers in Vista and so on. DX11 isn't any different from 10 really, it added some minor features but nothing radical for overhead.  The same with 11.1 and 11.2, little changes, what has changed is WDDM and the quality of the GPU drivers.

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Posted

I hope that one day, new versions of DirectX won't require new hardware. Each release fragments the market and developers almost always develop with the lowest common denominator in mind. Take a look at how long developers made DX9 games when DX10 and DX11 were available.

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Posted

Given that DirectX12 is most likely already a long time into development; isn't it possible they created the custom GPU in the Xbox One so that it also supports DX12?

Seems like a huge fail if they didn't.

Xbox One uses a GPU based on AMD's 7xxx series which are all 11.1, it's not custom and you can't do that anyway, it takes a long time to design a GPU to support the newest version of DX let alone a future version that isn't even anywhere near finished. When the Xbox was in development Microsoft would have been working on DX 11.2 for Win 8.1 anyway. DX 12 would have been in the planning stages. It's not a fail, it's just not a possibility, you just cant do that.

Any future version of DX that has "closer to the metal" developer access would only be something that would benefit PC's anyway. Because developers can already get closer to the metal on the consoles, this has always been the case. AMD created the Mantle graphics API for the PC because DX on PC is a high level API that does not offer low level access right now (not to the same extent as a console anyway) so you always get overhead impacting the performance on PC which makes games run slower. If any future version of DX offers what Mantle does then Mantle will be obsolete and pointless. Of course DX 12 or whatever can offer more features, some of which may or may not work on the DX 11.1 GPU in the X1. But it will always remain a DX 11.1 GPU.

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Posted

Xbox One uses a GPU based on AMD's 7xxx series which are all 11.1, it's not custom and you can't do that anyway, it takes a long time to design a GPU to support the newest version of DX let alone a future version that isn't even anywhere near finished. When the Xbox was in development Microsoft would have been working on DX 11.2 for Win 8.1 anyway. DX 12 would have been in the planning stages. It's not a fail, it's just not a possibility.
 

 

sigh.

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Posted

DX10 was not the issue it was the GPU makers not having good drivers ready to take advantage of it.  They dropped the ball with WDDM 1.0 drivers in Vista and so on. DX11 isn't any different from 10 really, it added some minor features but nothing radical for overhead.  The same with 11.1 and 11.2, little changes, what has changed is WDDM and the quality of the GPU drivers.

Excuse my ignorance, but if that is the case, can you name some games that had better performance with DX10 while looking similarly or better than DX9.

 

sigh.

He's probably referring to the underlying technology, not its implementation.

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Posted

sigh.

Don't know why you're sighing when you obviously don't know anything.

It's not custom. It's a DX 11.1 part based on AMD's 7xxx series Graphics Core Next architecture. Just like PS4. It's only "custom" in the sense that it's on the same die as the CPU with access to eSRAM. The architecture and DirectX support are exactly the same as a AMD PC GPU from 2 years ago.

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Posted

Don't know why you're sighing when you obviously don't know anything.

It's not custom. It's a DX 11.1 part based on AMD's 7xxx series Graphics Core Next architecture. Just like PS4. It's only "custom" in the sense that it's on the same die as the CPU with access to eSRAM. The architecture and DirectX support are exactly the same as a AMD PC GPU from 2 years ago.

The silicon is custom, therefore its a custom chip. If it's not off the shelf, its custom. It doesn't matter what similarities it has to other APUs.

 

EDIT: Are the 15 co-processors on silicon? If so, you've also got an 8 core custom MS in-house DSP processor on there.

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Posted

The silicon is custom, therefore its a custom chip. If it's not off the shelf, its custom. It doesn't matter what similarities it has to other APUs.

 

EDIT: Are the 15 co-processors on silicon? If so, you've also got an 8 core custom MS in-house DSP processor on there.

 

It's all on the same silicon, and works as part of a single unit, it's based off another architecture, but it's custom in every sense of the word. with features and functions that you won't find on the card it's "based" off of. 

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