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Allan

Borrowing or Theft

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Simple question (no, it's NOT homework, I'm no longer in school.)

If "Tina" takes something belonging to "Zoe" - be it money, an umbrella, food, a car, clothes, or toiletries - without permission from Zoe... even if "Tina" intends to return it later. Is it "borrowing" the item, or is it "theft".

I feel if you are borrowing something, you've gotten permission of the owner of the object to use it, and return it, in similar condition to what you took it.
Taking it without asking, and returning it later, I think, is still theft, as you didn't have permission in the first place.

To be clear: taking something without permission (no matter the size of the object) - is it "borrowing" or "theft" discuss!

 

Edited because Neowin doesn't have polls.

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Taking something without permission or the owner's knowledge is theft regardless of your intention to return it later.

 

You can't borrow something without permission. :)

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Taking something without permission or the owner's knowledge is theft regardless of your intention to return it later.

 

You can't borrow something without permission. :)

+1

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Somehow I knew the answer would be "theft" just from reading the thread title.

 

When in doubt...

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I agree w/ both of you.  My ex-roommate and landlord seem to think it's not.
My ex-roommate liked to take food, money, umbrellas, and even soap, without asking, and than would only return them when I asked about them.

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lets say you borrow without permission and return it before the owner knows its gone, hey i borrowed your umbrella while you were at work. still theft????

 

lets say you borrow an item from a roommate or sibling and know that permission should be implied is it still theft? you guys are assuming everyone is a sneak thief 

 

sure you should always ask but in many many cases its not feasible. just playing devils advocate here 

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lets say you borrow without permission and return it before the owner knows its gone, hey i borrowed your umbrella while you were at work. still theft????

 

lets say you borrow an item from a roommate or sibling and know that permission should be implied is it still theft? you guys are assuming everyone is a sneak thief 

 

sure you should always ask but in many many cases its not feasible. just playing devils advocate here 

 

I think in some cases depending on your relationship with the person and the item you took there could be implied consent. Like if I needed a step ladder and I went to my parent's house and they weren't home but I took theirs to use, I know that my dad wouldn't mind me using it so I would call that borrowing. A roommate taking food, money, or even umbrellas without asking you though... yeah that is definitely theft. Especially money, I would never dream of taking cash from anyone without permission no matter who it is.

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lets say you borrow without permission and return it before the owner knows its gone, hey i borrowed your umbrella while you were at work. still theft????

 

lets say you borrow an item from a roommate or sibling and know that permission should be implied is it still theft? you guys are assuming everyone is a sneak thief 

 

sure you should always ask but in many many cases its not feasible. just playing devils advocate here 

I go up stairs to my landlords house (I've been given permission to go in, and hang out, eat some of the food, or play PS3), take his car keys, go do the store, and return before he realizes I took the car.

Is that Grand Theft Auto?  Is it ONLY theft when the owner realizes the item is gone?  So as long as someone hides their theft, it's ok?

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I'd say it depends on the relationship you have with the friend and 'borrower'.

But a really good friend would ask first.

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depends on item/circumstance

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It's theft regardless how you perceive the scenario and how you "think" the other person might mind it being taken.

 

You take your parents ladder without permission, you stole it.  You return it and notify them, you're apologizing for the theft.  He/she says they didn't mind, your theft is excused.  They say you're welcome to take it anytime, you're borrowing it next time.

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depends on item/circumstance

 

Not really.. The law is very clear, this is the Florida law, most states are very similar

 

812.014?Theft.?
(1)?A person commits theft if he or she knowingly obtains or uses, or endeavors to obtain or to use, the property of another with intent to, either temporarily or permanently:
(a)?Deprive the other person of a right to the property or a benefit from the property.
(b)?Appropriate the property to his or her own use or to the use of any person not entitled to the use of the property.

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I'm just going to borrow $100,000 from that bank, without their permission.   I promise that I'll return it later. 

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Not really.. The law is very clear, this is the Florida law, most states are very similar

 

812.014?Theft.?
(1)?A person commits theft if he or she knowingly obtains or uses, or endeavors to obtain or to use, the property of another with intent to, either temporarily or permanently:
(a)?Deprive the other person of a right to the property or a benefit from the property.
(b)?Appropriate the property to his or her own use or to the use of any person not entitled to the use of the property.

 

i went to a friends house yesterday and used his wifi without asking since i was on my cell phone. then i went into kitchen and grabbed a glass of water where i used his water. after then i used the washroom and used more water by flushing the toilet and then used his soap to wash. then later we had some food and used to hand cloths, salt and even utensils without asking. All this whole time I was also using the lighting in his house without asking since it was dark out and then that would include his power too. And that's only 1 friend on 1 visit on 1 day. imagine how much i steal in a week from all my friends. but it works out since they steal from me all the time too when they come over.

 

like i suggested, depends on item/circumstance

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Taking something without permission or the owner's knowledge is theft regardless of your intention to return it later.

 

You can't borrow something without permission. :)

Yes, Tina is a tea leaf.

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Rarely does anything I let someone borrow ever get returned in the same condition if I get it back at all. I'm very picky about anything that cost me over $100 or so or if it's a game/movie that I really enjoy, I just like to keep things as mint as possible.

 

Here's a question. I once lent my best friend my N64 game console (back in the day) and a week or so later, his apt got broke into and it was one of the items stolen. Now granted he lost some nice stuff but I felt it was his duty to either buy me a replacement or give me reasonable cash. Instead he shrugged his shoulders about it cause it was "stolen" and not his fault it got stolen.

Well my house didn't get robbed, his did due to his poor lack of security imo. He didn't take care of his responsibility which the N64 became his responsibility....so was I right to call him a thief?

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Just love reading threads such as this one. . .I sit down with a big bowl of popcorn and a ice cold beer and then sit back and have a good laugh. . . :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

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I go up stairs to my landlords house (I've been given permission to go in, and hang out, eat some of the food, or play PS3), take his car keys, go do the store, and return before he realizes I took the car.

Is that Grand Theft Auto?  Is it ONLY theft when the owner realizes the item is gone?  So as long as someone hides their theft, it's ok?

you actually consumed gas the gas and food without returning it so there goes your argument

 

driving a CAR you were not given permission to do so just because you had consent to enter their home also is a ridiculous example. 

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i went to a friends house yesterday and used his wifi without asking since i was on my cell phone. then i went into kitchen and grabbed a glass of water where i used his water. after then i used the washroom and used more water by flushing the toilet and then used his soap to wash. then later we had some food and used to hand cloths, salt and even utensils without asking. All this whole time I was also using the lighting in his house without asking since it was dark out and then that would include his power too. And that's only 1 friend on 1 visit on 1 day. imagine how much i steal in a week from all my friends. but it works out since they steal from me all the time too when they come over.

 

like i suggested, depends on item/circumstance

If you honestly believe that what you described is even remotely comparable to taking something, without asking, when the owner isn't even there, I feel sorry for you. 

 

You were invited in.  The owner was there.  Using something such as a towel is not theft.  You didn't remove the towel from his property without his knowledge now did you?  Besides, most "friends" you visit, upon your first visit, typically indicate what is acceptable behavior - thus giving permission.  For example, most friends won't have an issue with you using the bathroom, everyday disposables/consumables (tissue, soap, salt, etc.). You learn the boundaries (permissions) of what is and is not acceptable.

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It's not theft nor borrowing, theft is where you have an evil intent to cause a deprivation of the object from its rightful owner, where as just taking something is where you have good intentions. Here are some thought experiments:

If a baby has a knife in his hand, and the parent takes the knife, is it theft?

If someone steals something and you take it from them, is it theft if you don't return it to them and instead return it to the original owner?

If you don't mean harm or cause any distress to the owner when you take something from them or keep it for a reasonable amount of time before they need it, is it theft?

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If you honestly believe that what you described is even remotely comparable to taking something, without asking, when the owner isn't even there, I feel sorry for you. 

 

You were invited in.  The owner was there.  Using something such as a towel is not theft.  You didn't remove the towel from his property without his knowledge now did you?  Besides, most "friends" you visit, upon your first visit, typically indicate what is acceptable behavior - thus giving permission.  For example, most friends won't have an issue with you using the bathroom, everyday disposables/consumables (tissue, soap, salt, etc.). You learn the boundaries (permissions) of what is and is not acceptable.

 

for the third time now...  depends on item/circumstance

 

as the item increases in value, people get more and more caring....

 

Some people are freaks, some people don't care... all depends

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Well my house didn't get robbed, his did due to his poor lack of security imo. He didn't take care of his responsibility which the N64 became his responsibility....so was I right to call him a thief?

He isn't the thief, the robber is. However since your friend accepted custody of the item by borrowing it, it's his responsibility to return the goods (or something of fair value) for it's replacement.

 

If the fails to do this, then he would become the thief by proxy.

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i went to a friends house yesterday and used his wifi without asking since i was on my cell phone. then i went into kitchen and grabbed a glass of water where i used his water. after then i used the washroom and used more water by flushing the toilet and then used his soap to wash. then later we had some food and used to hand cloths, salt and even utensils without asking. All this whole time I was also using the lighting in his house without asking since it was dark out and then that would include his power too. And that's only 1 friend on 1 visit on 1 day. imagine how much i steal in a week from all my friends. but it works out since they steal from me all the time too when they come over.

 

like i suggested, depends on item/circumstance

 

Clearly you don't understand the definition of theft as by law: Re-read it again, very slowly, and I will bold the parts you totally missed

 

812.014?Theft.?
(1)?A person commits theft if he or she knowingly obtains or uses, or endeavors to obtain or to use, the property of another with intent to, either temporarily or permanently:
(a)?Deprive the other person of a right to the property or a benefit from the property.
(b)?Appropriate the property to his or her own use or to the use of any person not entitled to the use of the property.

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If you do not acquire permission beforehand from the owner of said object, then it's stealing. Plain and simple.

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Clearly you don't understand the definition of theft as by law: Re-read it again, very slowly, and I will bold the parts you totally missed

 

812.014?Theft.?
(1)?A person commits theft if he or she knowingly obtains or uses, or endeavors to obtain or to use, the property of another with intent to, either temporarily or permanently:
(a)?Deprive the other person of a right to the property or a benefit from the property.
(b)?Appropriate the property to his or her own use or to the use of any person not entitled to the use of the property.

 

 

Clearly you don't understand the definition of theft as per individual opinion: Re-read it again, very slowly, and I will bold the part you totally missed

 

as the item increases in value, people get more and more caring....

 

Some people are freaks, some people don't care... all depends

 

Original post was not about letter of the law: Quote: To be clear: taking something without permission (no matter the size of the object) - is it "borrowing" or "theft" discuss!

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