Update to Xbox One dev kit gives Devs access to more GPU bandwith

[vcfan]

No, the spokesperson who answered EG said the two are related. There's no sense in quoting something from last year when the circumstance may have changed and any plans they had originally to do it didn't work. There is a conflicting message.

 

I've never said any of the following:

 

1: kinect is gone

2: kinect won't be sold separately or never again included with another SKU

3: disconnecting the kinect offers more power

but you did say they had to remove kinect to do it,did you not? the only thing im saying is, what you said doesnt make sense. how does selling a sku without kinect lead to them being able to remove a hard lock on resources if they will still sell the same sku as they do today with kinect?

[DrunknMunky Veteran]

but you did say they had to remove kinect to do it,did you not? the only thing im saying is, what you said doesnt make sense. how does selling a sku without kinect lead to them being able to remove a hard lock on resources if they will still sell the same sku as they do today with kinect?

 

 

Microsoft has confirmed that this boost in performance is in fact due to Kinect being stripped from the package.

 

That is the quote word for word from EG.

 

I've already said that in my reply to Trooper the resource management will work around when a game requires the 10% or doesn't, but clearly the spokesperson talking to EG said they removed it because it's related. Again backed up when Yusuf said it wasn't removed for sales reasons. How, why, when, what, who knows how it's related. Unless you're MS or a 3rd party developer who has access to the SDK (and no NDA restrcting it), we may never know.

[vcfan]

That is the quote word for word from EG.

 

I've already said that in my reply to Trooper the resource management will work around when a game requires the 10% or doesn't, but clearly the spokesperson talking to EG said they removed it because it's related. Again backed up when Yusuf said it wasn't removed for sales reasons. How, why, when, what, who knows how it's related. Unless you're MS or a 3rd party developer who has access to the SDK (and no NDA restrcting it), we may never know.

i actually think the response from ms is a canned one that doesnt even answer the question.

EG:Microsoft has confirmed that this boost in performance is in fact due to Kinect being stripped from the package. When asked if the two were related, a Microsoft spokesperson sent Eurogamer the following response:

MS:"Yes, the additional resources allow access to up to 10 per cent additional GPU performance. We're committed to giving developers new tools and flexibility to make their Xbox One games even better by giving them the option to use the GPU reserve in whatever way is best for them and their games."

it still doesnt make sense how selling a kinectless sku changes anything, because they will still sell the same sku they sell today with kinect. my xbox with Kinect wont suddenly have any disadvantage to one sold without it.

[Brendeth]

VC, Andrew.

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Edit: I believe this is all a case of the messaging at Microsoft not being on point. Surprise, surprise that Yusuf was a major part of the poor communication.......

[George P Global Moderator]

VC, Andrew.

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Edit: I believe this is all a case of the messaging at Microsoft not being on point. Surprise, surprise that Yusuf was a major part of the poor communication.......

 

It's a combination of poor messaging and the media, like MN says, jumping to conclusions and pulling things out of their rear.

 

The timing of this update is also a factor because it comes so soon after they told us about the new SKU without Kinect.   Either way, the change is to the reserve we knew about from the beginning, some devs will now decide to use more if they have a need in their game, that's about it.

[MikeChipshop Member]

It's a combination of poor messaging and the media, like MN says, jumping to conclusions and pulling things out of their rear.

 

The timing of this update is also a factor because it comes so soon after they told us about the new SKU without Kinect.   Either way, the change is to the reserve we knew about from the beginning, some devs will now decide to use more if they have a need in their game, that's about it.

 

(y) The normally combination at the moment :D

 

Feel free to correct me if i'm wrong but didn;t MS say, right at the start, that this would eventually happen. To me it smacks of a rushed API that they've now had time to sit down and fine tune. 

 

Slightly OT: My god whatever MS put in the latest update has made my Kinect fly. I can mumble barely audibly and the Kinect will perk up and do as it's told. It's actually a viable method of controlling the Xbox/TV for me now. A pleasure rather than a pain. I'm also slowly getting over the 'Feeling like a nob because i'm talking to an inanimate object' thing too.

[techbeck]

Microsoft has previously tweaked the Xbox One to boost its overall graphics performance, but a new software change for the console pushes things even further. Xbox One developer units are receiving an update to increase GPU bandwidth by up to 10 percent. While the changes won?t be instantly felt during gameplay, game developers can now modify their titles to take advantage of system resources that were previously reserved for Kinect. Microsoft?s recent unbundling of Kinect has allowed the company to unlock the performance improvement, another sign that it's more concerned with traditional titles rather than trying to push developers to adopt Kinect.

 

"Yes, the additional resources allow access to up to 10 per cent additional GPU performance," explains a Microsoft spokesperson in a statement to Eurogamer. "We're committed to giving developers new tools and flexibility to make their Xbox One games even better by giving them the option to use the GPU reserve in whatever way is best for them and their games." The changes are part of a recent June update for the Xbox One, which also unlocks entertainment apps and brings TV features outside of the US.

 

More....

http://www.theverge.com/2014/6/5/5782286/xbox-one-without-kinect-performance-boost

[watkinsx2]

Already posted here:

 

https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1216533-update-to-xbox-one-dev-kit-gives-devs-access-to-more-gpu-bandwith/

 

I wonder though if we will see resolution bumps for older games. 

[DrunknMunky Veteran]

VC, Andrew.

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Edit: I believe this is all a case of the messaging at Microsoft not being on point. Surprise, surprise that Yusuf was a major part of the poor communication.......

 

Not sure what VC means but I saw the tweet.

 

He is making reference to Polygon / Verge who added extra (BS), to the story.

 

Correction: A previous version of this article said that the "Kinect-less Xbox One will receive a 10 percent boost in its performance due to the stripping out of the peripheral." We've updated the article throughout to account for Microsoft's statement

 

http://www.polygon.com/2014/6/5/5782024/kinect-less-xbox-one-microsoft-gpu-power

 

As I've said, EG is the source of this quote from the xbox spokesperson and what you see is what was said.

[techbeck]

Already posted here:

 

https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1216533-update-to-xbox-one-dev-kit-gives-devs-access-to-more-gpu-bandwith/

 

I wonder though if we will see resolution bumps for older games. 

 

Yea, I just saw it.  Sometimes it is hard to search for what is already posted.  :/

 

MODs, do your thing...;)

[Skiver Veteran]

Threads Merged

[spenser.d]

(Y) The normally combination at the moment :D

 

Feel free to correct me if i'm wrong but didn;t MS say, right at the start, that this would eventually happen. To me it smacks of a rushed API that they've now had time to sit down and fine tune. 

 

Slightly OT: My god whatever MS put in the latest update has made my Kinect fly. I can mumble barely audibly and the Kinect will perk up and do as it's told. It's actually a viable method of controlling the Xbox/TV for me now. A pleasure rather than a pain. I'm also slowly getting over the 'Feeling like a nob because i'm talking to an inanimate object' thing too.

 

I noticed the same thing with Kinect as well. Wonder if they used all the data they started collecting after the April update for that.

[trooper11]

Agreed, and I've said as much here on NW before. That's why I am all in favour of the "tough love" treatment as it arguably made Sony much more stronger and taught them some very valuable lessons. MS spent 2013 learning them and to their credit have responded much faster than Sony did. Hopefully they don't forget it though and they remember the gaming market can make and break you.

MS may have learned their lesson, but the tricky thing is that sometimes you still lose. Not every situation gets the same result even if the same pieces are present. All MS can do is do everything suggested by users and hope that is enough. People can then be glad to see what MS is doing, but still not buy anything though, or be really excited about the platform.

Oh and its not the gaming market that can make or break you, its the online gaming community. The actual gaming market is a much larger group of users.

Slightly OT: My god whatever MS put in the latest update has made my Kinect fly. I can mumble barely audibly and the Kinect will perk up and do as it's told. It's actually a viable method of controlling the Xbox/TV for me now. A pleasure rather than a pain. I'm also slowly getting over the 'Feeling like a nob because i'm talking to an inanimate object' thing too.

I noticed it as well, so its good to see them still working on improving the features, even if kinect users wont be a big group going forward.

[Showan]

(Y) The normally combination at the moment :D

 

Feel free to correct me if i'm wrong but didn;t MS say, right at the start, that this would eventually happen. To me it smacks of a rushed API that they've now had time to sit down and fine tune. 

 

Slightly OT: My god whatever MS put in the latest update has made my Kinect fly. I can mumble barely audibly and the Kinect will perk up and do as it's told. It's actually a viable method of controlling the Xbox/TV for me now. A pleasure rather than a pain. I'm also slowly getting over the 'Feeling like a nob because i'm talking to an inanimate object' thing too.

 

 

I've noticed the improvement to Kinect as well.  I don't even raise my voice to talk to it any longer.  Kinect flies now...

[vcfan]

As I've said, EG is the source of this quote from the xbox spokesperson and what you see is what was said.

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[DrunknMunky Veteran]

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And? That isn't what EG's article/quote says

 

Microsoft has confirmed that this boost in performance is in fact due to Kinect being stripped from the package.

 

Not talking about the SDK, but the removal of Kinect from the SKU.

 

Essentially what Phil tweeted is just a reworded confirmation of what MN tweeted. That to gain the 10% performance increase you don't need to unplug it.

[Woelfel]

Jesus. This update was happening regardless of unbundling Kinect. The amount of resources that NOT ONLY Kinect, but also snapped apps, etc... used that were "hard-coded", is now more flexible because of the engineering that the Xbox Team did. Simple as that. It doesn't matter if you have Kinect or not, those are system resources that are getting moved around. It's called "refactoring" code to make your code more efficient while maintaining the same or better performance out of your system. Jeez, focusing so much on the words of an article where there are other sources (direct sources mind you) is just stupid.

[DrunknMunky Veteran]

Jesus. This update was happening regardless of unbundling Kinect. The amount of resources that NOT ONLY Kinect, but also snapped apps, etc... used that were "hard-coded", is now more flexible because of the engineering that the Xbox Team did. Simple as that. It doesn't matter if you have Kinect or not, those are system resources that are getting moved around. It's called "refactoring" code to make your code more efficient while maintaining the same or better performance out of your system. Jeez, focusing so much on the words of an article where there are other sources (direct sources mind you) is just stupid.

 

Nobody disputes that the update was coming. We've known since before launch it was coming.

 

What we didn't know was the reason why MS removed Kinect, especially when Yusuf said it wasn't because they wanted to increase sales. The quote from EG tells us why it was removed. That's all I've shared. People keep replying to me as if I posted the false information purported by Polygon / Verge when I didn't. If people actually read the topic, EG quote and tweets properly we'd be about 10+ replies shorter ;)

 

No need to get angry over it!

[vcfan]

And? That isn't what EG's article/quote says

 

 

Not talking about the SDK, but the removal of Kinect from the SKU.

 

Essentially what Phil tweeted is just a reworded confirmation of what MN tweeted. That to gain the 10% performance increase you don't need to unplug it.

logic > whatever EG says

That to gain the 10% performance increase you don't need to unplug it =

That to gain the 10% performance increase you don't need to sell it without kinect.

[DrunknMunky Veteran]

logic > whatever EG says

That to gain the 10% performance increase you don't need to unplug it =

That to gain the 10% performance increase you don't need to sell it without kinect.

 

Except the quote is from MS, not EG.

 

But I digress, we're going in circles. Until MS give a reason why it's the best we have :)

[George P Global Moderator]

What sort of reason for "why?" are people looking for?  The reserve was put in place as a safe bet to make sure Kinect and multitasking/snapping of apps worked smooth and didn't get in the way of the games.  That's all there is to it, it's not magically 10% going to Kinect because it needs all that 10% to work, that's not how I read it, that's not how they talked about it either. 

 

We've known about the change coming, it was said months ago, way in advance of any talks about introducing a SKU without Kinect in it.  Removing the Kinect, as they've said, doesn't magically give you 10% overall GPU boost, so that's one thing that was reported wrong.   EG's line is also off, I don't know who the heck they talked to, they don't list a name just some MS guy who replied, as if we've never had company dude A reply to a question with info that's wrong to some degree or fully, it's happened before.

 

Phils newest tweet posted above is clear about it, a reserve is now flexible and not fixed, but it's still there, there's still some amount going to the rest of the system, be it for Kinect + apps/snapping or just apps and snapping if there's no Kinect plug-ed in.  What more questions do people have?  Why did they take Kinect out?  To drop the price, that's it, no other reason for it.   I don't care what other type of PR spin YM might try to shine on it, it was business and nothing more, they needed an automatic drop in price, now, and fans wanted this option, so two birds with one stone.  

[DrunknMunky Veteran]

What sort of reason for "why?" are people looking for?  The reserve was put in place as a safe bet to make sure Kinect and multitasking/snapping of apps worked smooth and didn't get in the way of the games.  That's all there is to it, it's not magically 10% going to Kinect because it needs all that 10% to work, that's not how I read it, that's not how they talked about it either. 

 

We've known about the change coming, it was said months ago, way in advance of any talks about introducing a SKU without Kinect in it.  Removing the Kinect, as they've said, doesn't magically give you 10% overall GPU boost, so that's one thing that was reported wrong.   EG's line is also off, I don't know who the heck they talked to, they don't list a name just some MS guy who replied, as if we've never had company dude A reply to a question with info that's wrong to some degree or fully, it's happened before.

 

Phils newest tweet posted above is clear about it, a reserve is now flexible and not fixed, but it's still there, there's still some amount going to the rest of the system, be it for Kinect + apps/snapping or just apps and snapping if there's no Kinect plug-ed in.  What more questions do people have?  Why did they take Kinect out?  To drop the price, that's it, no other reason for it.   I don't care what other type of PR spin YM might try to shine on it, it was business and nothing more, they needed an automatic drop in price, now, and fans wanted this option, so two birds with one stone.  

 

I would imagine Kinect-fans would like a proper reason to be given. Many of them are angry about it as we know and believe developers are now going to ignore it. All I did was post the story to answer those Qs for some. I'm not looking for another reason because I've got one. Others are still replying to me as if I'm talking about Polygon's / Verge's false information and quoting tweets from Larry and Phil to back it up when that's a completely different issue. Like I say, people need to read the topic properly and stop jumping the gun / down my throat over arguments that aren't happening except with themselves.

 

So with that, back on topic please because it has been dragged on long enough.

[trooper11]

I like how now there is this underclass of users referred to as 'Kinect-fans' now that Kinect has been unbunbled and any conversation that relates to Kinect is joined by a reference to those poor souls :laugh:

As far as you guys arguing over which MS statement is the 'definitive' statement, Andy is right that he is merely quoting what MS shared EG. So you have to take that at face value. However, comments made by MS after those quotes were made would seem to point to a different conclusion, one that is not about Kinect alone or necessarily about removing it. So each one of you are free to have your 'reasons' based on which quote you think carries more weight.

Boil this all down and you are left with more fun ammo for those that are not Kinect (or X1 for that matter) fans to use when breaking down the the missteps.

For me, I think the good news is that MS is making good on their promise from around launch that they were going to optimize the SDK to allow for more access to reserved resources. Somehow that has become a negative point to some, but I only see great news here.

[George P Global Moderator]

People are also saying that their Kinect works better now after the June update, so I'd say they not only managed to reduce it's impact on the system so that developers can use more than before but optimized it so that it doesn't need as much either.  I think the SDK will default you as a developer to a preset of sorts, but if need be you can request more, the system will do so, it's like the PC and Windows, it'll give your game more and if something else was sitting there in the BG it'll be paged out of RAM.

 

I think now with external support coming as well we've seen yet another thing that plays into this, people have posted that loading times are faster on their external drives compared to the internal which as a PC user that never seems to be the case, internal will always give you better speeds.  The early tests with swapping out the 500GB internal and adding in a SSD also showed very little to no difference so it made it not worth voiding your warranty.    Seeing how this is a Windows system at it's core I think this change is telling, the internal HDD has to be used for paging, and often, so not only is it reading game data but doing other reads/writes to which has a impact.  When you switch to that external drive I doubt the system stops using the internal, the internal has to be still in use as it's still the OS drive and has the pagefile.    So when we're loading a game off of the external, it's just reading the bits and little else while the internal is doing more work (this is why I think they also used a slower RPM drive, keep heat down even more and have it last longer). 

 

As far as the reserve, it's still there, it sounds to me like developers have to code specifically for it and ask for more, the system will then do what it can to give them what they need.  Apps you've loaded will get paged out and they'll be suspended so I'm willing to bet that with or even without Kinect, if we have a game that we know for sure is using more resources and has tapped into that extra reserve, multitasking could very well take a hit.  People could see more apps have to reload/redraw their UI when you switch to them compared to before.

[DrunknMunky Veteran]

I like how now there is this underclass of users referred to as 'Kinect-fans' now that Kinect has been unbunbled and any conversation that relates to Kinect is joined by a reference to those poor souls :laugh:

As far as you guys arguing over which MS statement is the 'definitive' statement, Andy is right that he is merely quoting what MS shared EG. So you have to take that at face value. However, comments made by MS after those quotes were made would seem to point to a different conclusion, one that is not about Kinect alone or necessarily about removing it. So each one of you are free to have your 'reasons' based on which quote you think carries more weight.

Boil this all down and you are left with more fun ammo for those that are not Kinect (or X1 for that matter) fans to use when breaking down the the missteps.

For me, I think the good news is that MS is making good on their promise from around launch that they were going to optimize the SDK to allow for more access to reserved resources. Somehow that has become a negative point to some, but I only see great news here.

 

Agreed, really looking forward to seeing the improvements once the June SDK is put into action. Should definitely bring the visuals up nicely while we wait for DX12.