+Warwagon MVC Posted February 13, 2015 MVC Share Posted February 13, 2015 I was thinking about this recently especially regarding the article currently on the front page about not recommending installing Windows phone 10 on unsupported devices, because you might brick your phone. Which makes me wonder, why aren't there precautions built into hardware to prevent bricking. Like a god recovery mode, which would be located is at a very low level and never gets touched via any firmware upgrades. It would be accessed by turning on the device holding down a certain key combo. it would then throw your device into recovery mode and let you roll your device pack to a previous OS version via USB connected to a PC. Because if you do that, I wouldn't consider a device bricked. When I think bricked, I think time to get out the soldering iron. +E.Worm Jimmy, Buttus and remixedcat 3 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draconian Guppy Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 I was thinking about this recently especially regarding the article currently on the front page about not recommending installing Windows phone 10 on unsupported devices, because you might brick your phone. Which makes me wonder, why aren't there precautions built into hardware to prevent bricking. Like a god recovery mode, which would be located is at a very low level and never gets touched via any firmware upgrades. It would be accessed by turning on the device holding down a certain key combo. it would then throw your device into recovery mode and let you roll your device pack to a previous OS version via USB connected to a PC. Because if you do that, I wouldn't consider a device bricked. When I think bricked, I think done turkey. Don't manufactures have this some sort of way? They can't add super god mode un brick, because of low level exploits me thinks? The Evil Overlord 1 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Warwagon MVC Posted February 13, 2015 Author MVC Share Posted February 13, 2015 Don't manufactures have this some sort of way? They can't add super god mode un brick, because of low level exploits me thinks? Well couldn't they make it unable to be accessed by the OS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draconian Guppy Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Well couldn't they make it unable to be accessed by the OS IIRC this is why the iPhone 3Gs or 2, with an unlocked bootloader was basically unbrickable and flashable up to ios 5 (unofficially) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nagisan Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 They already do this on some devices......most modern motherboards (that are worth buying) have a secondary BIOS that contains the initial BIOS it shipped with and cannot be updated. If a BIOS flash goes bad it enters recovery mode and automatically flashes the BIOS from the secondary chip to the primary chip, restoring the functionality. As to why phone manufacturers do not do this, probably because they don't want to fully embrace the capabilities of custom firmware on their devices, so they don't want to make it easy to fix if you screw it up (thereby reducing the number of people willing to try custom firmware). Buttus, +Warwagon and Aergan 3 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Warwagon MVC Posted February 13, 2015 Author MVC Share Posted February 13, 2015 They already do this on some devices......most modern motherboards (that are worth buying) have a secondary BIOS that contains the initial BIOS it shipped with and cannot be updated. If a BIOS flash goes bad it enters recovery mode and automatically flashes the BIOS from the secondary chip to the primary chip, restoring the functionality. As to why phone manufacturers do not do this, probably because they don't want to fully embrace the capabilities of custom firmware on their devices, so they don't want to make it easy to fix if you screw it up (thereby reducing the number of people willing to try custom firmware). You have a point but there have also been stories were legit updates go bad and brick devices, so this could also be a way to cut back on having to replace phones. As far as running custom firmware. They could still not make that possible via public key crypto and stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draconian Guppy Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 You have a point but there have also been stories were legit updates go bad and brick devices, so this could also be a way to cut back on having to replace phones. Don't updates always have some sort of EULAs ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenwizard88 Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Does bricking mean to make a phone unusable, or to break it? Because I believe that (although not supported by MS) there are ways to re-flash Lumia phones after a bad software update. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seketh Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Wouldn't this require additional memory and r&d for a feature that only about 0,001% costumers would use? It just makes no sense from a business view, and it's already very hard to truly brick a phone. Look at the catastrophic update that Neowin's Brad Sam suffered on his Lumia Icon (running beta software, take that in consideration). Even though the update couldn't have gone any wors, he can just use the available recovery tool to recover his phone. The chances of getting a (decent) phone bricked with software nowadays are probably lower than a critical hardware failure... Does bricking mean to make a phone unusable, or to break it? Because I believe that (although not supported by MS) there are ways to re-flash Lumia phones after a bad software update. Bricking means you kill the phone, not even recovery software works, and you can't do anything without personally contacting the manufacturer. I think Brad's Neowin article was way too sensationalist (at least the title). It was a bad update, running beta software. It's like all those people that use a Windows 10 preview and then go bananas when something goes wrong. The article made no sense, especially considering it was likely recovered using the Lumia Recovery Software. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draconian Guppy Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Wouldn't this require additional memory and r&d for a feature that only about 0,001% costumers would use? It just makes no sense from a business view, and it's already very hard to truly brick a phone. Look at the catastrophic update that Neowin's Brad Sam suffered on his Lumia Icon (running beta software, take that in consideration). Even though the update couldn't have gone any wors, he can just use the available recovery tool to recover his phone. The chances of getting a (decent) phone bricked with software nowadays are probably lower than a critical hardware failure... Bricking means you kill the phone, not even recovery software works, and you can't do anything without personally contacting the manufacturer. I think Brad's Neowin article was way too sensationalist (at least the title). It was a bad update, running beta software. It's like all those people that use a Windows 10 preview and then go bananas when something goes wrong. The article made no sense, especially considering it was likely recovered using the Lumia Recovery Software. A news article sensationalist? Nah you have to be wrong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Technically, all devices are "unbrickable" unless you do something stupid like flash the motherboard with buggy BIOS. The problems that today happen with "bricking" devices are because OEMs lock access to the hardware and BIOS of the phones. Also the fact that we don't have an easy way to install an OS to an empty phone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sikh Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Apple has "DFU" mode with its mobile devices. Its almost impossible to brick a iOS device unless you already are jailbroken and have root access, but the people with that access know they can brick their phone easily and recover from it. Almost all software based recovery that fails, can't brick the device. francescob 1 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tha Bloo Monkee Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 I believe that many devices also have undocumented backdoors and/or jigs to unbricking the phone which only the manufacturer knows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remixedcat Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Samsung has ODIN and it's gotten my gnex outta jam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
francescob Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 It's pretty easy to make unbrickable devices, manufacturers just have to lock down flashing to model-specific updates and use digital signatures and avoid real-time flashing for the critical areas (bootloader, radio ROM, etc), it's just that manufacturers not only don't give a damn but they barely tolerate custom flashing. Or in case of official upgrades it's just because manufacturers are too cheap to customize the code from the sdk for more reliable flashing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anibal P Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Samsung has ODIN and it's gotten my gnex outta jam. There are not many Android phones that are truly brickable, especially if you put some effort into getting a good recovery installed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draconian Guppy Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 There are not many Android phones that are truly brickable, especially if you put some effort into getting a good recovery installed I never understood the "install a recovery part" on androids... (Galaxy S4 owner and LG G3 owner :laugh ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anibal P Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 I never understood the "install a recovery part" on androids... (Galaxy S4 owner and LG G3 owner :laugh ) Just makes recovering from and mistakes easier than using stock, especially the horribly locked down ones Samsung and Sony like to use Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustGeorge Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 Sorta similar, but I've always wondered by there is no Failsafe mode built into motherboards/CPUs? That way, if your BIOS don't yet support a just released CPU, it would go into "limp along" mode, run @ some reduced speed in order to allow you to be able to flash updated BIOS without the need of shipping your board back to manufacturer to get BIOS chip replaced. Its been a few years since I last built a PC, so maybe its not an issue anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tha Bloo Monkee Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 Sorta similar, but I've always wondered by there is no Failsafe mode built into motherboards/CPUs? That way, if your BIOS don't yet support a just released CPU, it would go into "limp along" mode, run @ some reduced speed in order to allow you to be able to flash updated BIOS without the need of shipping your board back to manufacturer to get BIOS chip replaced. Its been a few years since I last built a PC, so maybe its not an issue anymore. Honestly, if it were that easy and worth it to implement, don't you think they would have done it by now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustGeorge Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 Honestly, if it were that easy and worth it to implement, don't you think they would have done it by now? No, not really. Sometimes things just get overlooked. Maybe they don't think its really a problem. * Power up -> motherboard attempts to identify CPU * Intel socket xxx CPU detected -> Sends universal greeting * Baweep-grawnaweep-neenybob... * CPU responds back with model/core identifer * Motherboard determines CPUID unknown -> initiate CPU safe mode -> single core/500MHz * User flashes new BIOS -> reboots * Power up -> motherboard attempts to identify CPU * Intel socket xxx CPU detected -> Sends universal greeting * Baweep-grawnaweep-neenybob... * CPU responds back with model/core identifer * Motherboard -> "Baweep-grawnaweep-neenybob..." * Motherboard determines CPUID known -> initiate FUN DConnell 1 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DConnell Member Posted February 18, 2015 Member Share Posted February 18, 2015 No, not really. Sometimes things just get overlooked. Maybe they don't think its really a problem. * Baweep-grawnaweep-neenybob... Liked for the Transformers reference. But it's "Bah wheep grahnah wheep nini bong". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustGeorge Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Liked for the Transformers reference. But it's "Bah wheep grahnah wheep nini bong". I'm in my 40's. Memory banks failing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WinMacLin Guy Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Most devices are unbrickable; though, unfortunately, you would have to send many of them to the manufacturer to unbrick for you because the recovery tools that the manufacturer uses is not publicly accessible. This is a big problem with some modern smartphones and tablets. I have a two tier suggestion to deal with this issue: -Firstly, putting an option in the software-interface between base firmware and OS to allow the device to restore by either connecting to the internet and downloading the latest allowed OS, restoring by connecting to a computer with the latest allowed OS, restoring by using an image of the latest allowed OS from a USB flash drive or SD Card. -Secondly, having an updatable nand flash built-in with a basic user-friendly OS image that allows the user to perform all of the above, perform hardware diagnostic tests, access the main storage volume to backup user information, etc. This two tier recovery feature I proposed would involve a software interface between the firmware and OS which provides the user with the ability to restore their OS image in multiple ways (as mentioned in point #1). There would also need to be two storage units (I propose 2 separate nand flash chips; as opposed to partitioning one nand flash unit or worst partitioning the main storage unit) one with a basic safe-mode OS that allows the user to run various hardware diagnostics and perform various types of data recover (as mentioned above in point #2) and the second unit will contain either the latest allowed recovery-image or the latest allowed OS-install-image (or both). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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