Shadowrun: Hong Kong

[+Asmodai MVC]

Started this one this weekend and having a pretty good time with it, anyone else played or playing it?

(yet another of my kickstarters)

[LaP]

I've yet to finish Dragonfall so i'll wait to buy this one.

If you have not played the 2 previous shadowrun game from the same dev they are worth the money and time you'll spend on them.

I really like Harebrained Schemes games.

Edited August 25, 2015 by LaP

[+Asmodai MVC]

I've yet to finish Dragonfall so i'll wait to buy this one.

If you have not played the 2 previous shadowrun game from the same dev they are worth the money and time you'll spend on them.

I actually backed them all on Kickstarter (well the first two are both from the first kickstarter...) and am looking forward to their upcoming Battletech kickstarter.

Due to my backlog of games however I hadn't actually played either before Hong Kong came out.  Since Hong Kong isn't related (can't import characters or anything) I decided to start with what I presume is the most feature-rich game.  I do have to day though that they don't provide a tutorial or anything so I'm making a lot of dumb mistakes.

For example I went through several battles with an NPC rigger on my team before I figured out how to activate his drone.  I couldn't figure out why the stupid thing was not selectable and just followed him around.  I'm still not sure how the Matrix works (which is apparently revamped in this version) despite the fact I made my character a Decker.  Fortunately a lot of things seem to work by just looking if you have the skill.  I also just noticed there was a whole different set of inventory on my NPC Shaman that you toggle (spell vs inventory) and she has consumable items to summon spirits.  I thought for several of the first few battles that she could only summon them if there was an environment source to use.  I REALLY could have used a tutorial, rofl.  Honesly I'm shocked I've made it as far as I have considering how many things I keep figuring out you can do, rofl.  I guess they assume you played the first two already???  There also doesn't seem to be crap as far as wiki's and such for the game on the internet yet... at least my google-fu seems to be failing me.

[HawkMan]

hmmm a new story in Shadowrun Returns? I missed this... does this one increase the skills and use characters form Dragonfall or is it another start from scratch adventure ? Guess I'll have to find out. 

 

Also... Battletech Kickstarter ? what is this holy secret you speak of...

[+Asmodai MVC]

hmmm a new story in Shadowrun Returns? I missed this... does this one increase the skills and use characters form Dragonfall or is it another start from scratch adventure ? Guess I'll have to find out. 

 

Also... Battletech Kickstarter ? what is this holy secret you speak of...

Shadowrun Returns was the first game.  It had what started as an expansion called Dragonfall but they ended up releasing it stand alone (but you got it for free if you backed the original kickstarter since it started as an expansion).  My understanding is that you could move your characters from one to the other but I'm not sure about that because as I said I didn't actually get around to playing them.

Shadowrun: Hong Kong was a whole new Kickstarter.  It has no connection to Returns/Dragonfall as I understand it beyond them being Shadowrun games and updated versions of the same game engine.  You start from scratch with a new character and so I just went ahead and started on this one since it has the most updated engine and there is no continuity between them.

With the Shadowrun games all released the developer is turning their attention to Battletech for their next game.  They've announced that they're going to kickstart it but it hasn't started yet.  You can find more info here.

[HawkMan]

Actually returns, is what dragonfall was supposed to be but they ran out of time so they finished a "preview" game. I refer to the whole engine as Returns. and no you couldn't continue with your Returns character in Dragonfall. which annoyed a lot of people as that's part of the idea with actual shadowrun. 

 

Hong Kong is then basically the same as Dragonfall was, it's another shadowrun story using the returns engine. and another stupid decision to start over. it's a problem with the writers they have, they write stories that are much to grand, and at the end it wouldn't make sense for the characters to go on more runs (even though Dragonfall actually left the ending open for the team going on more runs together). The whole idea of shadowrun is tbe shadowrunners and going on runs, not to have start over all the time. I fear that the other shadowrun game may sadly become more true to shadowrun than "returns" series has turned out. on the other hand, the Returns series has always been inspired by the SNES game which was only shadowrun in inspiration of the world. 

[+Asmodai MVC]

Actually returns, is what dragonfall was supposed to be but they ran out of time so they finished a "preview" game. I refer to the whole engine as Returns. and no you couldn't continue with your Returns character in Dragonfall. which annoyed a lot of people as that's part of the idea with actual shadowrun. 

I think you have that backwards... Dragonfall is what Returns was supposed to be.  I'm cool with that though because they gave you Dragonfall for free if you backed Returns... so if it makes you feel better you can just forget Returns existed (the "preview" game) and just treat Dragonfall as what the Kickstarter was for.  They had a lot of hiccups along the way really.  My understanding was MS still held the rights to Shadowrun and allowed them to make the game but wouldn't allow them to release any future DLC, not specifically mentioned in the kickstarter, DRM-free.  That actually caused me to seek the refund at one point but MS apparently changed their minds and they ended up releasing everything on GoG.com.  So yeah... it was a bumpy ride but they got to the right destination eventually.

Hong Kong is then basically the same as Dragonfall was, it's another shadowrun story using the returns engine. and another stupid decision to start over. it's a problem with the writers they have, they write stories that are much to grand, and at the end it wouldn't make sense for the characters to go on more runs (even though Dragonfall actually left the ending open for the team going on more runs together). The whole idea of shadowrun is tbe shadowrunners and going on runs, not to have start over all the time. I fear that the other shadowrun game may sadly become more true to shadowrun than "returns" series has turned out. on the other hand, the Returns series has always been inspired by the SNES game which was only shadowrun in inspiration of the world. 

Hong Kong is using an upgraded version of the Returns Engine.  I don't believe it's compatible with the older mods (I know new mods using new features won't work in the older Returns/Dragonfall version).  They supposedly revamped the Matrix (again, didn't play the older ones yet so I can't say what's different) but most importantly they dropped mobile support.  One of the complaints with the original game(s) was that they supported mobile so they had to run on really weak hardware.  Hong Kong is PC only so they could up the requirements beyond what a mobile system can run.

As for them not continuing I think there is a level cap issue if you just keep releasing content indefinitely.  I don't mind that they keep starting over but that does make it a very story based game.  I'd love to see a shadowrun game with procedural mission generation and such but that's really not what these games are about (hopefully Battletech will be that way.)  It's a $15 game (at least if you kickstarted it) so I think it more than delivers at that price.  Sure, it would be a bit lacking if they were charging $60 for it like AAA game but they're charging 1/4 of that and it's a good deal at that price.  Especially since it comes with the editor so you can download fan created scenarios.

What other shadowrun game are you referring to (in bold in your quote above)?

[HawkMan]

If they followed the PnP shadowrun rules, theres shouldn't be any level cap issues. the thing about shadowrun is that very little levelling happens in the traditional RPG way, technically it's a classless system and fully skill based. and most of the"levelling" after a certain level is "item" based. 

[n_K]

I forgot about this getting released, will try it out sometime.
Yes, the debacle of SR: returns and dragonfall...

I was hoping that there would be a new soundtrack for hong kong and it looks like there is! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OqqbesJ-Ks

[HawkMan]

Shadowrun Chronicles (originally Shadowrun Online) is the other major shadowrun game currently being developed, it's somewhat similar to Returns, but you have one character and he grows with you through several runs through a online hub system where you can play online with "hired" runners or other players. It's in Steams pay for beta system, but has become a lot better since it was first launched and looks like it could become really great. 

It's more true shadowrun, while Returns is more of a nod to the SNES Classic that a lot of us have fond memories of. 

[+Asmodai MVC]

If they followed the PnP shadowrun rules, theres shouldn't be any level cap issues. the thing about shadowrun is that very little levelling happens in the traditional RPG way, technically it's a classless system and fully skill based. and most of the"levelling" after a certain level is "item" based. 

Maybe leveling was the wrong word to use but I thought it illustrated my point.  There are no levels in Shadowrun: Hong Kong either (well, not for your character anyway... they do use sort of a level system to allow you to influence the NPC progression which isn't normally under your control).  You get karma that you use to buy skill/attribute upgrades.  There are only so many skills though that the game implements.  There is only so much cyberware that the game implements.  There are only so many weapons and armor types.  So if it was open ended and you could just keep making runs until you maxed out your character pretty heavily.  I mean with the limited things they have I'm already up to INT 7 with a human max of 9 so it wouldn't take a ton more content to max that out.  You can only put so much cyber stuff in you before you lose too much essence.  They don't want you to go leveling up your character so you have 9's in every attribute (or whatever your racial max is) because it's a party based game and they want each member to have a useful specialty to contribute to the group... not some uber character who can do anything and doesn't need anyone else.

Don't get me wrong I'm not saying it's impossible to make a Shadowrun game that's more open ended.  I don't think you could do it for $15 a pop but it could be done.  I don't think they promote these games as that though.  I think they've been pretty clear that it's along the lines of the SNES game.  It's still a great game for $15 buy yeah if you're looking for a by-the-books conversion of the PnP game then this is not it.  I don't many in the general public are looking for that though.

 

[+Asmodai MVC]

Shadowrun Chronicles (originally Shadowrun Online) is the other major shadowrun game currently being developed, it's somewhat similar to Returns, but you have one character and he grows with you through several runs through a online hub system where you can play online with "hired" runners or other players. It's in Steams pay for beta system, but has become a lot better since it was first launched and looks like it could become really great. 

It's more true shadowrun, while Returns is more of a nod to the SNES Classic that a lot of us have fond memories of. 

Oh yeah, I'm aware of that.  I thought you were talking about some offline capable game I missed or something.  I didn't back Shadowrun Online when it was on kickstarter because I personally have ZERO interest in an online only game (not that there is anything wrong with others being interested in them... just not my thing personally).  I don't see how you can compare a game that costs $15 forever to one that $15 buys you one month of premium content but to each his own.  A game that has an continuous influx of money is obviously going to have more content then a game you pay once for.

[HawkMan]

You don't need to play SR Chronicles "online" as in with others though. you also don't need to pay monthly to play. it plays just as well as Shadowrun returns games. 

[n_K]

Just finished listening to the OST, not tried the game itself yet, have to say it's not as good an OST as shadowrun returns was.. In fact it's nowhere near!

[+Asmodai MVC]

You don't need to play SR Chronicles "online" as in with others though. you also don't need to pay monthly to play. it plays just as well as Shadowrun returns games. 

As a general rule I don't buy any game that can't be played offline.  I didn't buy Diablo III on PC because of that (I got it on PS4 instead which worked out GREAT because 4 player "couch" co-op is AMAZING), I got a refund on Elite: Dangerous when it was announced that single player would require an online connection, I didn't buy the SimCity reboot because of it (even though they later patched it to allow offline play... IMHO Cities: Skylines ended up better anyway), etc.  Again though I'm not advocating others don't buy it because of that, it's just my personal preference.

The main point is though that it's unfair to compare a game that costs $15 ONCE to one that people pay a subscription for, even if it isn't required.  Even if everyone isn't paying the subscription those that do are providing income the developers can use to make new content (new equipment, new runs, etc.)  There is no way a game that ships and doesn't change and charges once can compete with that on content.  They do give you an editor though so in a sense you have unlimited content you just have to get it from other gamers or make it yourself instead of depending on the developers to provide it.

I'm not trying to bad mouth Shadowrun Chronicles though, it's not my thing but if you like it GREAT!  The more quality Shadowrun games out there the better if you ask me and if you say Chronicles is a good game for those who like that sort of thing then I believe you, it's just not for me.  I don't think it being good makes Returns/Dragonfall/Hong Kong bad though.  It's not an either-or thing and both can be great games that just cater to different audiences.  I'm much more interested in offline, single player experiences and so the Returns games are more my speed.  At $15 they're a great buy IMHO and provide a nice change of pace between Pillars of Eternity, Wasteland 2, and Divinity: Original Sin.  If you don't like them though then that's fine too, to each his own.

[johnporter29]

Slighty off-topic, but I've been watching gameplay videos of Shadowrun on Youtube and am debating actually grabbing Shadowrun,

Is better to start with Shadowrun Returns and then each of the DLCs ? Would I miss anything if I went straight to SR Hong Kong or even SR Chronicles?

[+Asmodai MVC]

Slighty off-topic, but I've been watching gameplay videos of Shadowrun on Youtube and am debating actually grabbing Shadowrun,

Is better to start with Shadowrun Returns and then each of the DLCs ? Would I miss anything if I went straight to SR Hong Kong or even SR Chronicles?

My understanding is that Shadowrun Returns is short and very linear but a pretty good story.

Shadowrun Dragonfall started as an expansion to Returns but ended up being a stand-alone release and was more open ended (it's not an open world game or anything).  It's what many where hoping Returns would be and was given to backers of the Returns kickstarter for free.  According to those above you have to start completely over so there really isn't any need to play Returns first.

Shadowrun Hong Kong was a second Kickstarter and uses an improved version of the same game engine.  Like Dragonfall it's an entirely new story where you start out with a new character so again there's really no need to play Returns or Dragonfall first, they are all completely separate stand-alone stories that just happen to be in the same game world and use modified versions of the same game engine.  As a result I went ahead and started on Hong Kong personally because it's the most feature rich of the three.  The only reason I can think of that this may be a problem is going back and playing the older ones may cause you to be disappointed by the lack of features... there is no story/character connection between them.

Shadowrun Chronicles is a different type of game from a different developers.  It's based off the same Shadowrun game world but it's an online only game with an optional monthly subscription (maybe microtransactions, I'm not sure.)  So that one in theory as long as the money keeps coming in you can just make a character and keep doing different runs, getting new gear options, etc.  On the downside I don't believe there is an editor (cold be wrong on that) and I guess if some point they take their servers down you're just out of luck.  In theory you could play the "Returns" based games 20 years from now if you wanted because they don't depend on any outside servers or anything.

I personally have the Returns games all on GoG.com after having Kickstarted them all but haven't played Chronicles as I decided not to kickstart an online only game.  This thread is for Hong Kong though so it's really not about Chronicles as there is only a loose connection between them.  Returns and Dragonfall use the same engine as Hong Kong and are from the same developer though so their strongly related to Hong Kong.  If you want more info on Chronicles you might want to start a different thread on the topic so people more knowledgable than me about it can chime in and provide the information you need.  I'm not sure they'll fine your post in a Hong Kong thread.

[+Asmodai MVC]

I don't know if anyone is interested but I got a chance to play a bunch of Shadowrun this weekend and these are my thoughts:

As I said before I started with Hong Kong since the games aren't connected.  I got to the "Tower" mission in Hong Kong which I think is near the end (based on the fact my handler said to wrap up any remaining side missions I had before I started down the route that led to the "Tower" mission.  I got a bit stuck on it (nothing I won't eventually overcome) so as a change of pace I decided to go back and run a few missions in Dragonfall.  As such I can compare the two games now.  I don't think I'm particularly far in Dragonfall but there are already a lot of minor differences in how things work.  I'm actually enjoying Dragonfall a bit more (but it's still early) so I'd say go ahead and play that one first if you haven't started any of them yet (I still haven't tried "Returns" yet)

Dragonfall vs. Hong Kong:

NPCs:  I like the NPCs a little better in Hong Kong.  It isn't just that I like the personalities more but their advancement seems better in Hong Kong.  They advance similarly with you getting to pick a single upgrade from a choice of two but the Dragonfall ones many are just gear they carry instead of actual skills (for example choosing one might make the NPC bring a level 2 medkit on every mission instead of a level 2).  That's crap considering I can drop a level 2 medkit on the NPC at the start of the mission anyway.  Hong Kong they actually all seem like real skill improvements.  That said you seem to get to the character stories quicker in Dragonfall where I felt like I had to really work to get to them in Hong Kong. More interesting though is in Dragonfall the store NPCs seem to give optional missions to upgrade the items offered which is cool and I wish they had done that in Hong Kong as well.

Gear:  I think Hong Kong adds more cyber slots, I'm not sure as I didn't make a character who uses cyber (in either game) but I think there are more options.  There also seems to be more of all the different kinds of gear (weapons, armor, etc) but that may just be because I haven't unlocked it all in Dragonfall (I haven't run those store upgrade missions yet and and not near the end.)  You seem to have a lot more money in Dragonfall to play with though as I always felt strapped for cash in Hong Kong (I wouldn't have minded playing with some cyberwear but by the time I kept my deck, armor, and weapon upgraded I didn't have enough left to play around).  Also in Hong Kong the armor is very basic and really just different cosmetically.  Near the end of the game I had the best armor I could get from the tech vendor and while the armor rating was improved that's all there was, and there was different armor from the magic and weapons shops with the exact same rating, the only difference is what it looked like.  In Dragonfall however even the very first armor I bought actually gave me a stat buff which is nice.  So I went form the basic armor 1 to an Armor 2 with Int + 1, then I jumped to a Armor 5 with int + 1 and decking + 1, that's awesome!  There are other armors with bonuses to health and other stats for other classes, I have no idea why they dropped this from Hong Kong.

Matrix:  I actually prefer the Matrix in Dragonfall despite the fact Hong Kong is supposed to be "upgraded" (it was a Hong Kong kickstarter stretch goal).  In Dragonfall it seems to be basically a combat screen.  You just run through and fight off the enemies to get to the control nodes.  In Hong Kong it starts as a stealth game where you have to try to avoid detection.  I agree that's better in theory but unless I'm doing something wrong some are darn near impossible with all the spotters having overlapping views and moving really fast. (there are some easy ones at the beginning).  Every time they see you they fight you and your overall detection goes up (each round you don't kill them it goes up more) when it hits the max then more bad guys appear so it sort of becomes like Dragonfall at that point.  It just seems too twitchy to me and I spend WAY TOO MUCH time in the Matrix and away from the rest of the crew in the Hong Kong version.  Not only that but once you finally DO make it to the node you don't just get the info, instead you have to do a mini game that is like a two tier memory game game where you have to match patters while a timer ticks down.  I HATE timed anything in games... that's why I like TURN BASED strategy games.  I like the concept of having to hack the node with a mini-game but I HATE the mini-game they chose to use.  Something that's more skill based like picking a lock in skyrim instead of racing a clock would have been much better IMHO.  So again overall I like the CONCEPTS of stealth before combat and mini-game and the nodes but I dislike the execution of both so it ends up being worse overall IMHO.  In fact the only thing I like better in Hong Kong is that once you hack and node you can just log out from the hacked node, in Dragonfall you apparently have to run back to where you came in which seems pointless to have to run through potentially several cleared screens to get back to the entry point.

Mechanics:  One things I noticed they upgraded in Hong Kong that I wish they had in Dragonfall is in the upper right corner there is a holster icon that allows you to force turn-based mode before combat has actually started.  This can be helpful for trying to sneak behind cover or if you just want to get a jump on someone and position your team before the enemy goes.

I just want to conclude by saying I do like both games and am having a great time playing them but I'd say Dragonfall edges out Hong Kong overall in my book.

[+Asmodai MVC]

I finished Shadowrun: Dragonfall.  I definitely liked it better.  I'm not sure why they took a step back on Hong Kong but they did.  If you haven't tried any of the three I'd say try Dragonfall, if you like it and want more missions then do Hong Kong and Returns and if you don't like Dragonfall it's probably safe the skip the others.