.NET Framework

[macman87]

When you programme with Visual Studio .NET your application needs the .Net framework to run. How can i make a application less than 2 MB of size using the .NET framework? :wacko:

[azcodemonkey]

If you're worried about executable size, use VC++ and don't use the framework. Seriously, .NET isn't really designed to be the be-all-end-all for system development. It is mostly designed for distributed application development (e.g. web apps, EAI, etc). Eventually, and probably unfortunately, it will be how things are done on the Windows platform, but until Longhorn is RTM, it isn't a practical model for system applications *because* of the 20+MB download required to run anything written for .NET.

[Veedems Veteran]

People are going to have to get the framework sooner or later anyway and it is already included with XP SP1. Just don't include the framework with your package, let people get it themselves.

[Rathamon]

indeed , it wont make your program any bigger , just say "you need the framework, its not my problem"

[tomwarren Veteran]

I agree with weenur, until we see Longhorn with the .NET framework intergrated into the OS then it's only going to be mainly for web applications. However, if Microsoft decide to add the .NET framework to SP2 then this might push developers to code more with the .NET framework in mind. Who knows :)

[Glowstick]

Eventually, and probably unfortunately, it will be how things are done on the Windows platform

Unlike NOW on a per app basis, there will be only ONE global CLR and GC in Longhorn.

[azcodemonkey]

Unlike NOW on a per app basis, there will be only ONE global CLR and GC in Longhorn.

Really? How are they going about that? I was under the impression that as each new version of the framework comes out, they will run side-by-side, with the ability to set your app's affinity.

Please don't take my comments wrong. I happen to enjoy developing in C# immensely.

[macman87]

so does anyone even programme with .Net? or use the framework?

[Veedems Veteran]

so does anyone even programme with .Net? or use the framework?

I do, I use vb .net

[smurfiness]

Really? How are they going about that? I was under the impression that as each new version of the framework comes out, they will run side-by-side, with the ability to set your app's affinity.

They do run side-by-side. If you install a new version, the old one stays on your system unless you remove it. A lot of people think it's an either-or thing like most programs, but Microsoft's done a bit of their magic with side-by-side DLLs, which make different Framework versions work together on a single system.

so does anyone even programme with .Net? or use the framework?

I do. I write with C#, a bit of C++.NET. I've used Delphi, VB (the old VB), and MFC, and I find .NET to be the most rewarding. So many mundane things are just so much easier, which lets you spend a lot more time on program logic, rather than hunting IO bugs or other stupid little things that can hold you up for days.

And despite what a lot of people think, the fact that the Framework is a 20MB download really isn't that much of an impediment. If you build something compelling enough, people will download the Framework to use it -- even modem users. The first time I put out a .NET app, I was worried that no one would be bothered to download the Framework to use it. Now, a few months later, over 100,000 downloads and not slowing down at all.

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Danny Smurf

[macman87]

does windows xp 1 and windows 2000 sp3 give you the framework?

[azcodemonkey]

And despite what a lot of people think, the fact that the Framework is a 20MB download really isn't that much of an impediment. If you build something compelling enough, people will download the Framework to use it -- even modem users. The first time I put out a .NET app, I was worried that no one would be bothered to download the Framework to use it. Now, a few months later, over 100,000 downloads and not slowing down at all.

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Danny Smurf

100,000+ downloads is great. Not to burst your bubble, but how many of those that downloaded it are actually using it? Did they give up when they realized that they needed a 20MB download along with it?

It wouldn't surprise me if the majority had no issue with it. Broadband is becoming more and more pervasive.

I remember when people used to bitch about the VB runtimes. :rolleyes:

btw, what's the url for your program?

[smurfiness]

Yeah, 100,000+ is great. I don't have HARD numbers about how many people are using it. I did some rough calculations when the downloads were at 50,000 based on the stats my sever logs gave me about in-program downloads, and it was about 20,000 actual users. If that ratio held, then downloads to date (~125,000) translates to between 55,000 and 60,000 users. I can't verify that, though, because I've just released 4 beta versions in the last month, so any numbers I get are going to be skewed now.

I know there are people who didn't keep it because they didn't realize that it needs the 20MB Framework (There are bunches of comments like that in various forums), but it's clearly stated in the minimum requirements, and since they couldn't be bothered to read those BEFORE they installed the app, I'd rather not have them clogging up my forums anyway.

I really don't have a lot of sympathy for the whining about having to download dependencies. Like you said, people used to bitch about the VB runtimes (some still do) or the MFC libraries. Christ, when I was on a modem and I needed something big, I'd just start the download, and then head into the living room and watch a movie. From the way these people (the same people, mind you, who will wait for a bazillion MP3s to download) complain, you'd think it's a big put-out for them to drag their arses away from the computer and do something else while they're downloading.

The app is Codename: Dashboard (I'm sure you've heard about it by now).

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Danny Smurf

[azcodemonkey]

...  and it was about 20,000 actual users. If that ratio held, then downloads to date (~125,000) translates to between 55,000 and 60,000 users. I can't verify that, though, because I've just released 4 beta versions in the last month, so any numbers I get are going to be skewed now.

That is still a good number of people using it. Congratulations! :D

when I was on a modem and I needed something big, I'd just start the download, and then head into the living room and watch a movie. From the way these people (the same people, mind you, who will wait for a bazillion MP3s to download) complain, you'd think it's a big put-out for them to drag their arses away from the computer and do something else while they're downloading.

Amen!

The app is Codename: Dashboard (I'm sure you've heard about it by now).

Yes, I have heard of it, though I haven't tried it. I've given up on most shell extensions/enhancements. NextStart was the only util I really used consistently, and even then, I stopped using that. I have a lot of ideas for creating a shell that is very extensible, and easy to write to, but no time to implement it between work, school, and a wife. Maybe this summer, I'll get around to fleshing out the design and set up a RFC to get some community input.

Anyhow, Philip, it looks as if it may be viable to write something in .NET for distribution after all. :D

[macman87]

how many people actally have the framework? I mean it wasn't in windows xp but it came on on xp SP1 and it wasn't on windows 2000 sp3. How many people actually have the framework? If microsoft wants people to programme with .NET then they have some work to do...

[Farquaon]

I wonder.....I know it didnt come with XP, but was included in SP1, I have XP + SP1, but this morning I was downloading .NET 1.1 from the update website. Is there a revision out that differs from the SP1 or what?

[macman87]

there is. 1.1 has more stuff i think. (VS .net 2003 is based on 1.1)

[+chorpeac MVC]

I would just like to say that anyone who is/was doing web development with any microsoft product. You should upgrade and learn .NET. It is so much better. The code is cleaner, and now everything is object-oriented. C# is a wonderful programming language. There is a huge difference with APS to ASP.net pages. Try it out. It is much easier to code, and the code is cleaner and more efficient. I give .NET development two thumbs up!

[MikeStammer]

SP1 comes with v1. v1.1 was released on or around April 24 when Everett, aka VS.NET 2003 was released along side Windows Server 2003.

Codename Dashboard looks interesting, but the author hasn't added proxy support to it (should only add like 10 lines of code in .NET), so I cant use it.

Dim SomeRequest As Net.HttpWebRequest = Net.WebRequest.Create("http://www.your.web.site.here.com")

Dim f As New Net.NetworkCredential

f.UserName = "username"

f.Password = "password"

SomeRequest .Credentials = f

SomeRequest .Method = "POST"

SomeRequest .ContentType = "application/x-www-form-urlencoded"

Dim reqStream As Stream = SomeRequest .GetRequestStream()

Dim tw As TextWriter = New StreamWriter(reqStream)

[macman87]

I would just like to say that anyone who is/was doing web development with any microsoft product. You should upgrade and learn .NET. It is so much better. The code is cleaner, and now everything is object-oriented.

I agree but you still need the .net framework to run everything which only a small amount of windows users have.

[MikeStammer]

not if its just a web app. you dont need anything as long as the runtime is on the web server.

[smurfiness]

SP1 comes with v1. v1.1 was released on or around April 24 when Everett, aka VS.NET 2003 was released along side Windows Server 2003.

Codename Dashboard looks interesting, but the author hasn't added proxy support to it (should only add like 10 lines of code in .NET), so I cant use it.

Dim SomeRequest As Net.HttpWebRequest = Net.WebRequest.Create("http://www.your.web.site.here.com")

Dim f As New Net.NetworkCredential

f.UserName = "username"

f.Password = "password"

SomeRequest .Credentials = f

SomeRequest .Method = "POST"

SomeRequest .ContentType = "application/x-www-form-urlencoded"

Dim reqStream As Stream = SomeRequest .GetRequestStream()

Dim tw As TextWriter = New StreamWriter(reqStream)

Thanks for that. One question though. I've had problems with this type of "stream" code before. It frequently gets cut off mid-transmission. Right now, I'm using the WebClient class (and occassionally the URLDownloadToFile API) to do all downloading, because it's so simple and doesn't require ten lines of checking for every transaction to see if the whole thing came through (it either works or it doesn't). Would I need to add extra code to this to make it work, or is what you posted the whole deal?

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Danny Smurf

[smurfiness]

I agree but you still need the .net framework to run everything which only a small amount of windows users have.

If you build something that people want, then those people will download the Framework to use it. I could pump out 20 useless programs a day, and no one would download the Framework to use them. But if you actually put some thought into the purpose of the application, and target it towards something, it's just not a factor.

Nor should it be. The .NET Framework really isn't about end users (at least not yet). And the decision to use .NET or not isn't really based on the sensibilities of end users. On the client development side, .NET is about making life easier for developers. Programmers have been breaking their backs for years wrangling with the Windows API, MFC (which isn't a whole lot better), having to check their app for compatibility with no less than three different versions of Windows at any one time, and spending countless hours tracking down piddly IO problems and buffer overruns and memory leaks and any number of other stupid bugs.

Things like Photoshop cost $500 because programming has been such a chore for so long. .NET does away with just about all of that. It simplifies and automates all of the mundane programming chores, fixes a slew of security bugs without any input from developers and eliminates compatibility problems between different versions of Windows (if developers play by the .NET rules anyway). Right now, it makes the lives of programmers easier. As a result of that, in the future, software will be released faster (and will probably be cheaper because of that), there will be fewer bugs, and it will be more secure.

Some users think they're very put-upon because they have to install the Framework in order to use an app. To that, I say... tough beans. The programmer has written something that you want. Either live without it, or get the Framework. Or... try Linux for a few weeks, and see how you like downloading just as much extra stuff for EVERY app, instead of just downloading a single Framework, once.

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Danny Smurf

[MikeStammer]

Danny Smurf,

Thats pretty much it. Once you have the stream wrapped in a textwriter, you can check its content to see if its incomplete or write it out, etc. If you use an XMLWriter, you can just use that to validate that it is a well formed XML file, etc. Unless the web server pukes or the connection drops, you should have your file! =)

You may have to monkey with method and content type, but thats about it.

.NET is bad ass, no doubt about it.

[smurfiness]

Danny Smurf,

Thats pretty much it. Once you have the stream wrapped in a textwriter, you can check its content to see if its incomplete or write it out, etc. If you use an XMLWriter, you can just use that to validate that it is a well formed XML file, etc. Unless the web server pukes or the connection drops, you should have your file! =)

You may have to monkey with method and content type, but thats about it.

.NET is bad ass, no doubt about it.

Alright, thanks. :) I'll definitely give that code a try.

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Danny Smurf

[MikeStammer]

Cool! Let me know when you add it in. I can test it as I was the one who emailed you back when v1 came out about proxy support! Odd we should meet on this board. My email domain is con-way.com if that rings a bell.