Flash developer to Apple: "Go screw yourself"

The war between Apple and Adobe took an ugly turn yesterday, as Apple's new iPhone developer agreement explicitly banned any applications that link to Apple's APIs in the way that Flash Professional CS5's tools do. One Adobe employee has decided that he's had enough of Apple and its ways, and has publicly told Apple to go screw itself.

The blog post, written by Lee Brimelow, reflects on just how much the hatred has grown over the last few months, though keep in mind that Brimelow speaks for himself, not the entire company. It's hard to tell whether Apple blocked the cross compilers due to a simple dislike of Flash, or whether there are bigger, more technical reasons at play; AppleInsider stated that, "The primary reason for the change, say sources familiar with Apple's plans, is to support sophisticated new multitasking APIs in iPhone 4.0. The system will now be evaluating apps as they run in order to implement smart multitasking. It can't do this if apps are running within a runtime or are cross compiled with a foreign structure that doesn't behave identically to a native C/C++/Obj-C app. '[The operating system] can't swap out resources, it can't pause some threads while allowing others to run, it can't selectively notify, etc. Apple needs full access to a properly-compiled app to do the pull off the tricks they are with this new OS,'" as pointed out by one of their readers, Ktappe. This could very well be the case, but perhaps it would be easier for Apple to state this publicly if it were the sole reason; at the moment, it definitely seems as though they're simply telling Adobe to go away.

A lot of people are very unhappy with Apple's actions, including Brimelow, of course, who ended his blog post with, "Now let me put aside my role as an official representative of Adobe for a moment as I would look to make it clear what is going through my mind at the moment. Go screw yourself Apple."

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djesteban said,
If Adobe really wanted to hurt Apple, they would cancel their CS5 suite for Mac. That would be devastating for Apple.

I hope Adobe ban Apple in return

I'm having trouble seeing why Apple can't just accept Flash.

I personally can use it fine, I have a pretty bad computer and flash loads and runs fine for me. Whatever problems other people have, I guess I can't sympathize with you.

But I need to point out that, like it or not, Flash is a HUGE part of the internet and technological community. It's everywhere. Just think; you're trying to go to all the sites you're used to on your new iPhone, iPad, whatever they decide to ban it on/produce next, and you get a bunch of blank space where you know things should be. The majority of fledgling game designers use Flash, and it's been integrated to many sites enough that taking it out would leave you with several pages of a CSS file. I know that if I lost Flash, whatever it does or doesn't do, it'd be a big loss to my internet experience.

smartin0115 said,
I'm having trouble seeing why Apple can't just accept Flash.

I personally can use it fine, I have a pretty bad computer and flash loads and runs fine for me. Whatever problems other people have, I guess I can't sympathize with you.

But I need to point out that, like it or not, Flash is a HUGE part of the internet and technological community. It's everywhere. Just think; you're trying to go to all the sites you're used to on your new iPhone, iPad, whatever they decide to ban it on/produce next, and you get a bunch of blank space where you know things should be. The majority of fledgling game designers use Flash, and it's been integrated to many sites enough that taking it out would leave you with several pages of a CSS file. I know that if I lost Flash, whatever it does or doesn't do, it'd be a big loss to my internet experience.

Because you're running it on a PC, try running it on a Mac and you'll realise why there is some venomous hatred of Flash equal to that of the type reserved for the mother-in-law. Until Adobe fixes Flash so that it no longer sucks when running on Mac OS X, Adobe will keep providing ammunition to Apple to legitimise refusing to allow Flash on iPhoneOS. Its Adobe's own incompetence that contributes to the problem. that people have with Flash in the first place and nothing to do with Apple.

rawr_boy81 said,

Because you're running it on a PC, try running it on a Mac and you'll realise why there is some venomous hatred of Flash equal to that of the type reserved for the mother-in-law. Until Adobe fixes Flash so that it no longer sucks when running on Mac OS X, Adobe will keep providing ammunition to Apple to legitimise refusing to allow Flash on iPhoneOS. Its Adobe's own incompetence that contributes to the problem. that people have with Flash in the first place and nothing to do with Apple.

Well, I guess Flash hasn't taken as high a priority then for Adobe in the updating and developing process. Certainly Photoshop and the rest work well, at least from my perspective and experience (some things were in different places, but it wasn't too hard to find). I'm perfectly open to Apple providing a replacement, but it seems that more than enough computer users are content to use Flash. Maybe it's up to Apple (at least a little bit) to make itself better able to receive things like Flash, I've always been annoyed at their closed system. Until a replacement comes forward enough to replace it, I guess it's something that will be around for a while, and certainly won't die any time soon.
Also, remember, not everyone that uses Flash on Apples is on a level of understanding as the Neowin population. There's no denying that this is a geek site, and many average people don't understand or care enough about the issue for it to be a problem.

rawr_boy81 said,

venomous hatred of Flash equal to that of the type reserved for the mother-in-law


lol

Edited by smartin0115, Apr 11 2010, 4:31pm :

When you see websites like grooveshark.com, you wonder whether the bad reputation of Flash is only due to some poor-coded games, because flash on that website is just awesome ! Imagine the time it would take to do this in html 5 !

I was wondering when somebody over at Adobe was going to crack. There is one thing which could be taken into consideration here. I have an iPod Touch it is ok but browsing is just ****ing ***p... I play a game and the battery just drops like a stone. They banned Flash now they are removing apps and ****ing off developers. Maybe Apple should look at the fact that the battery technology in their products is just plainly ***p. Is there anybody on this planet Steve Jobs does not hate...

EVANK said,
I was wondering when somebody over at Adobe was going to crack. There is one thing which could be taken into consideration here. I have an iPod Touch it is ok but browsing is just ****ing ***p... I play a game and the battery just drops like a stone. They banned Flash now they are removing apps and ****ing off developers. Maybe Apple should look at the fact that the battery technology in their products is just plainly ***p. Is there anybody on this planet Steve Jobs does not hate...

That doesn't sound right. I have complaints about Apple but battery life ain't one of them.

EVANK said,
There isn't a problem with Apple, it's just run by a tool.

Honestly though.. give me Steve Jobs over Steve Ballmer any day. That guy's nuts..

Flash is not a bad platform. Flash based Ad's are killing flash. While I do agree with most of you that flash is outdated, and obsolete, it still functions fine. Flash games, videos, interactive content, etc. are all widely used and supported. Remember all this hate for Flash comes from either A. Ads or B. Lack of flash support. If Apple supported Flash on the iPhone, this entire HTML5 > Flash argument wouldn't exist. Basically everyone is turning toward HTML5 which simply cannot do everything Flash can do, even though it is a step it the right direction.

No kidding, a bunch of people are ignoring that once ads go HTML5, not only will they go right back to hating a new source of ads, their flash blockers will suddenly become useless.

One question... why are people acting as if Adobe made these statements to Apple? It was one guy voicing his opinions, not the company's.

Tom Ferguson said,
One question... why are people acting as if Adobe made these statements to Apple? It was one guy voicing his opinions, not the company's.

Ya thats is true, however; most would agree that the generally consensus to this is identical. Most people feel like Apple is overreaching. Not only with Flash, but just about anyone who makes Steve Jobs job harder for him.

I'm sorry I have to say this but you people are utter fools! Adobe Flash is nothing but a pain the rear! It consumes massive amounts of resources, is a big security risk and let's not forget that Adobe is always extremely slow to recognize flaws in the software. Look at the major security flaws in Adobe Reader, it takes months for Adobe to conjure up a patch to fix major exploits. Why you're defending a company that doesn't give a **** about its consumers is beyond me.....not that Apple does but still. Flash is a dying technology and Adobe just doesn't want to admit it. Apple aren't the only ones to say this, Google also agrees. Youtube will be phasing out Flash and going with HTML5 and slowly everybody that matters will. Already websites are starting to convert from Flash to HTML5 so as to support the Apple devices so lack of Flash support will soon be a non-issue. I applaud Apple for trying to destroy Adobe's business because they deserve it!

ManOfMystery said,
<snip>

Exactly. It's funny how so many people here are trying to defend Adobe.

"Screw yourself Apple for not allowing our malware."
Go screw yourself Adobe.

bb10 said,

Exactly. It's funny how so many people here are trying to defend Adobe.

"Screw yourself Apple for not allowing our malware."
Go screw yourself Adobe.

Ahh, hilarious fanboism

I just wonder if Sir Isaac Newton had been named 'Adobe', the gravitation force would have been found by someone else, definitely not him.

85 million people across the world use the iPhone, iPod touch, now iPad and maybe a mac.

Flash has a wider audience. While I agree they should be proactive. HTML 5 isnt going to kill flash anytime in the next decade. Its apart of the internet society!. US in not the only country. People don't give a dam about apple outside the western countries.

So Adobe should just work on improving flash, and really not worry about apple.

Adobe are the one's years behind on sorting Flash for the iPod Touch/iPhone. Too little... little being NOTHING, too late.

Apple has been shoving Adobe aside slowly for years now.

Look at the iSoftware that competes directly with Adobe software, especially the Dreamworks designed Final Cut.

Back when Apple was 100% PPC, Adobe made several statements that the fastest way to use their software was on Windows, which was true because of the PPC and low level of optimization OS X had on it. (And it really wasn't the PPC that was lacking, MS demonstrated this with using it as the base for the XBox 360 with a slight redesign and a optimized version of Windows running on it for high performance gaming.)

Even after Apple moved to Intel, they promised Adobe (and everyone else) a migration path to 64bit via Carbon, then at the last minute dropped it, leaving Adobe with only being able to offer 64bit versions of their software on Windows and thus requiring a complete rewrite to get to 64bit on OS X. Apple didn't care and didn't care that it left their users with sub-par software selections on OS X, their only damage control was to brainwash people into thinking 64bit was only good for more RAM address space - which they still continue to mislead people with this viewpoint because OS X still isn't being shipping with the 64bit kernel enabled.

It is a strange relationship, as Apple's whole GUI concepts and rendering are based on what Adobe created (Display Postscript/PDF). But it seems now that Apple got the goody from Adobe, they really don't give a crap anymore.

Even Flash, as crappy as it is, Apple's purposeful rejection has been a large thorn in Adobe's side they attempted to move Flash over to more traditional Adobe technologies and Apple had no interest, which would have been the leading platform with the inherent PDF/Postscript rendering.

Yet you see Adobe and Microsoft get along rather well, and Microsoft's XAML/XPS/Silverlight technologies are big competitors to Adobe.

Apple is slowly closing themselves in a corner, and they have about used up all the good will and borrowed technologies they can (aka Display PDF, XNU, etc.) Even the OpenCL movement is stuck with many partners PO'd at Apple.

I sometimes think Apple has started to believe their own marketing.

thenetavenger said,
Apple has been shoving Adobe aside slowly for years now.

I wish I could upvote comments. Sums up the whole situation perfectly. Well done. I'm just curious to see where this whole thing is leading to.

Apple is pushing Adobe out in a very anti-competitive manner. If this were MS there would be law suits and monopoly charges.

Shadrack said,
Apple is pushing Adobe out in a very anti-competitive manner. If this were MS there would be law suits and monopoly charges.

MS is happy its happening cuz now they dont have to deal with the law suits and monopoly charges. MS is being forced to support a crappy product and not just their Silverlight.

Wake me up when Apple can live up to their own standards for coding on someone else's platform.

I'm looking at you, Quicktime for Windows. Two decades and you're still right up there with RealPlayer in the land of crappy code and inconsistency.

Joshie said,
Wake me up when Apple can live up to their own standards for coding on someone else's platform.

I'm looking at you, Quicktime for Windows. Two decades and you're still right up there with RealPlayer in the land of crappy code and inconsistency.

Interesting

Joshie said,
Wake me up when Apple can live up to their own standards for coding on someone else's platform.

I'm looking at you, Quicktime for Windows. Two decades and you're still right up there with RealPlayer in the land of crappy code and inconsistency.

+1... Not to mention the memory hogging bloatware that is iTunes!!

He said what we all have been thinking!

This is an interesting debate. I think, a lot of people would kick Adobe though if they could 'cause Flash is not really healthy to work with - so be careful...

As it stands, Adobe is just trying to grasp for straws to keep developers on a platform that is facing tough competition from open web technologies. Instead of whining, Adobe, make your platform better. Apple, as it stands, knows your **** sucks and is trying to force you guys out as fast as possible, even if it rubs some people the wrong way.

The system will now be evaluating apps as they run in order to implement smart multitasking. It can't do this if apps are running within a runtime or are cross compiled with a foreign structure that doesn't behave identically to a native C/C++/Obj-C app.

Any person who can code knows that is total bull crap. Using cross compiled programs library is no different from creating my own custom library that I would in several apps. Coding in a different language will not make the final application so drastically different that it would become incompatible with multitasking.

figgy said,

Any person who can code knows that is total bull crap. Using cross compiled programs library is no different from creating my own custom library that I would in several apps. Coding in a different language will not make the final application so drastically different that it would become incompatible with multitasking.

Any person who can code also knows that if they can code in one language, they can code in another. How much does Flash cost theys days? How much does the iPhone developer kit cost? Not that big of a deal. Stop being lazy and use the developer kit.

SputnikGamer said,

Any person who can code also knows that if they can code in one language, they can code in another. How much does Flash cost theys days? How much does the iPhone developer kit cost? Not that big of a deal. Stop being lazy and use the developer kit.

The official developer kit is not about cross-compilation.

LoneRunner said,

The official developer kit is not about cross-compilation.

How is that a valid point in any way? If you want to develop for the iPhone/iPad, use their developer kit.

Adobe certainly has options here. They could stop providing any applications for the Mac ... Adobe PDF reader, CS5 suite, and every other application they write could be withdrawn from Adobe's site and their distribution banned. That would certainly put Mac users at a huge disadvantage, if they're unable to read or save PDF.

sabrex said,
That would certainly put Mac users at a huge disadvantage, if they're unable to read or save PDF.
Macs don't need any Adobe software at all to read or save PDF. Both are built in to OS X.

sabrex said,
Adobe certainly has options here. They could stop providing any applications for the Mac ... Adobe PDF reader, CS5 suite, and every other application they write could be withdrawn from Adobe's site and their distribution banned. That would certainly put Mac users at a huge disadvantage, if they're unable to read or save PDF.

It would also hurt the usefulness of PDF... A format like that needs to just work. Also, as it's not limited to Adobe anymore, if Adobe stopped providing support for PDF on Mat, someone else would...

roadwarrior said,
Macs don't need any Adobe software at all to read or save PDF. Both are built in to OS X.

Also Macs users doesn't need to play other videos than MOV and MP4 files.

U_U

Magallanes said,

Also Macs users doesn't need to play other videos than MOV and MP4 files.

Huh? What does your comment have to do with mine? And I hope that comment was supposed to be sarcastic.

Adobe can either man up and go all out, or they can suck it up and stop crying. They don't like it; then stop supporting the mac platform 100%, until such time that jobs stops being an arrogant little dictator. There may be alternatives to Photoshop, but they're not as good, and there are no alternatives to InDesign (I have Scribus, its not there...not even close). The other side would be to suck it up, make a better application, and meet whatever demands jobs has. The public crying and criticism from both ends, just entertainment for the masses.

Adobe have recently been recently disappointing me quite a lot... Reader just doesn't work on any of my family's computers. 64 bit Flash has taken a million years to poke its head (and it's still not properly here), and it's not on any of the freaking smart phones you buy these days.

This sorta makes sense though

As an iPhone developers, Apple's decision is very good for me. While Flash support might bring a few quality apps most are going to be junk and believe me there's enough junk on the AppStore

Rudy said,
As an iPhone developers, Apple's decision is very good for me. While Flash support might bring a few quality apps most are going to be junk and believe me there's enough junk on the AppStore

A Flash cross-compiler would bring as many quality apps as Java brings to our desktops: almost none.

Elliott said,

A Flash cross-compiler would bring as many quality apps as Java brings to our desktops: almost none.

And such comment make you looks ignorant.
What is Eclipse based on? What is NetBean based on?

The infrastructure may be bad, but who can't utilize the infrastructure well with good ideas and design is the main cause of crappy application.

Edited by computerchan, Apr 10 2010, 4:16am :

It shouldn't come to this. Why can't Adobe just get their act together and fix the problems? Granted, it's not very mature or professional of Jobs to openly criticize Adobe and ban its product(s) from Apple devices, but that's Jobs' style, and almost everyone in the industry knows it. If you can't play hard ball, get off the field.

bjoswald said,
It shouldn't come to this. Why can't Adobe just get their act together and fix the problems? Granted, it's not very mature or professional of Jobs to openly criticize Adobe and ban its product(s) from Apple devices, but that's Jobs' style, and almost everyone in the industry knows it. If you can't play hard ball, get off the field.
It's not like Apple didn't quietly complain about Flash on their OS for years too.. They started civil, and still no improvements came..

Adobe burned their own bridges.

I'm not a big Flash fan either and I do see the problem that Adobe has at the moment with their software quality.

But just imagine Adobe would stop supporting the Mac platform (they could save a lot of money and resources here!) and invest this time and money to improve their Creative Suite, improve Flash on PC and bringing a good Flash plugin to Android and Windows Phone 7.

Would be fun, IMO
They could also give a discount for people switching to Windows from the Mac when buying CS5. So that W7 is free.

tiadimundo said,

But just imagine Adobe would stop supporting the Mac platform (they could save a lot of money and resources here!) and invest this time and money to improve their Creative Suite, improve Flash on PC and bringing a good Flash plugin to Android and Windows Phone 7.

To be honest that might actually do some good. Maybe there would be more incentive to develop proper alternatives to Adobe's software. Their Creative Suite is already very un-Mac-like in many ways and generally poor quality software (lots of usability flaws, all apps do their own thing, plenty of crazy bugs) on both Windows and OSX. Unfortunately so far nobody has come up with a good alternative to Photoshop and Illustrator. Pixelmator is a good start but still has a long way to go and none of the vector graphics programs for OSX seem to be as full featured as Illustrator, even though many do have somewhat better user interfaces.

I would rather see Flash used for its original purpose: animations, games and such rather than as a video player.

tiadimundo said,
I'm not a big Flash fan either and I do see the problem that Adobe has at the moment with their software quality.

But just imagine Adobe would stop supporting the Mac platform (they could save a lot of money and resources here!) and invest this time and money to improve their Creative Suite, improve Flash on PC and bringing a good Flash plugin to Android and Windows Phone 7.

Would be fun, IMO
They could also give a discount for people switching to Windows from the Mac when buying CS5. So that W7 is free.


That would cost Adobe millions. There are more CS4 users on the Mac platform than on Windows.

tiadimundo said,
I'm not a big Flash fan either and I do see the problem that Adobe has at the moment with their software quality.

But just imagine Adobe would stop supporting the Mac platform (they could save a lot of money and resources here!) and invest this time and money to improve their Creative Suite, improve Flash on PC and bringing a good Flash plugin to Android and Windows Phone 7.

Would be fun, IMO
They could also give a discount for people switching to Windows from the Mac when buying CS5. So that W7 is free.

If they stopped supporting the Mac they would lose revenue... They aren't developing their suite for the Mac at a loss...

M_Lyons10 said,

If they stopped supporting the Mac they would lose revenue... They aren't developing their suite for the Mac at a loss...


Exactly. I'm actually looking forward to CS5, though. As Cocoa apps, they should at least be a little better.

there is a good chance that Apple does not want a flash player on the iPhone because flash apps could easily circumvent the need to purchase from Apple's app store.

scubamess said,
there is a good chance that Apple does not want a flash player on the iPhone because flash apps could easily circumvent the need to purchase from Apple's app store.

Everyone who says this needs to be reminded that it is perfectly possible for a developer who wants to release a free game or app to do so through the App store. Apple does not require developers to charge for their apps.

roadwarrior said,
Everyone who says this needs to be reminded that it is perfectly possible for a developer who wants to release a free game or app to do so through the App store. Apple does not require developers to charge for their apps.

I fully agree. And to those that say Apple charges developers $99/year for the right to put apps on the app store, the publicity and ad money they can make far outweighs that of what they would otherwise get on a silly flash game.

roadwarrior said,

Everyone who says this needs to be reminded that it is perfectly possible for a developer who wants to release a free game or app to do so through the App store. Apple does not require developers to charge for their apps.


That's not the point though. For someone who wants to release a free app 100$ is too much. Also, quite a few flash games make money from micropayments which apple wont get any cut of

torrentthief said,
Lets move to HTML5 for video, HTML5 for adverts and silverlight for web-based applications - FLASH dead

Yeah, at least Silverlight doesn't crash or freeze my browser... I wish more people would use Silverlight personally...

The funny thing is... Apple need adobe more than adobe need mac in the long term.... yes the Apple brand makes adobe a lot of money. But if Adobe turned around and pulled support/updates/new releases etc. to all adobe software including flash - who does it affect more?

lt8480 said,
The funny thing is... Apple need adobe more than adobe need mac in the long term.... yes the Apple brand makes adobe a lot of money. But if Adobe turned around and pulled support/updates/new releases etc. to all adobe software including flash - who does it affect more?
Them, as they have a MASSIVE base of users on Mac's. Last I heard the breakdown was 60/40 Mac vs PC for CS4, if half of those moved to PC that's still 20% loss who would just stick with an old version, or someone else would make a replacement.. Hell Apple is doing quite well, I bet they could commit the resources to make a replacement for Photoshop and the like for Mac Users if they felt the loss of Adobe would lead to people leaving their platform..

Flash is crappy for videos but better for animations than html5.
but anyways, apple leaves me sick. Don't know how people can love them so much. Great products but awful "company representation" with "religion followers". If people could put some sense in their heads...

MerChan said,
Flash is crappy for videos but better for animations than html5.
but anyways, apple leaves me sick. Don't know how people can love them so much. Great products but awful "company representation" with "religion followers". If people could put some sense in their heads...

Every company has its followers. You can't judge a company from a few twits that think their word counts. Their company representation isn't that bad either, they just want what they want for their devices. That's not really unfair at all.

MerChan said,
Flash is crappy for videos but better for animations than html5.
but anyways, apple leaves me sick. Don't know how people can love them so much. Great products but awful "company representation" with "religion followers". If people could put some sense in their heads...

I don't see how they are any worse then those whos sole purpose is to come into any thread and bash no matter what the subject, they both need to get lost. I use the products of both Apple and Adobe aswell as MS. They are tools, people treat them like football teams.

bobbit said,

Every company has its followers. You can't judge a company from a few twits that think their word counts. Their company representation isn't that bad either, they just want what they want for their devices. That's not really unfair at all.

the thing is that they're not a few but a bunch. what makes a trend/religion is partially their "user" group and I can't avoid looking at that.
And i haven't said that only. My main concern is still the company's behavior.

MerChan said,

the thing is that they're not a few but a bunch. what makes a trend/religion is partially their "user" group and I can't avoid looking at that.
And i haven't said that only. My main concern is still the company's behavior.

For every 1 religious follower, there are 9 that have some form of maturity. Hating a company for people that neither represent, work for or have any kind of association with (don't forget most of these forks don't have the products they are bleeting over), is just silly.

Apple is not the perfect company. Nor is Microsoft, nor is Google, nor is Adobe. They are all businesses, trying to make the most money for themselves. You can't hate one and not the other, that's just arrogant.

bobbit said,

For every 1 religious follower, there are 9 that have some form of maturity. Hating a company for people that neither represent, work for or have any kind of association with (don't forget most of these forks don't have the products they are bleeting over), is just silly.

Apple is not the perfect company. Nor is Microsoft, nor is Google, nor is Adobe. They are all businesses, trying to make the most money for themselves. You can't hate one and not the other, that's just arrogant.

Yeah, I'm arrogant because I hate some company that has the arrogance in its maximum state. Good to know.
Who cares about who's perfect? Are you trying to make a point with that "argument"?
Ain't I'm free to hate something with MY own valid reasons? I'm tired of being "neutral" in this matter.

MerChan said,
Yeah, I'm arrogant because I hate some company that has the arrogance in its maximum state. Good to know.
Who cares about who's perfect? Are you trying to make a point with that "argument"?
Ain't I'm free to hate something with MY own valid reasons? I'm tired of being "neutral" in this matter.

You have all the right in the world to hate whoever you like. What I said was that you can't hate one company and not hate the rest, because they all act the same in one way or another.

bobbit said,

For every 1 religious follower, there are 9 that have some form of maturity. Hating a company for people that neither represent, work for or have any kind of association with (don't forget most of these forks don't have the products they are bleeting over), is just silly.

Apple is not the perfect company. Nor is Microsoft, nor is Google, nor is Adobe. They are all businesses, trying to make the most money for themselves. You can't hate one and not the other, that's just arrogant.

That's just the thing though. Many of these people (and I'm seeing a lot more Apple fanboys out there doing bashing, just an observation) are uninformed and look for any reason to go after their opposing companies. I dislike Apple personally, and have my own personal reasons, but I don't call them the anti-christ. It's the people that turn threads into opinionated bashing and swearing that make you start to be annoyed with the company they are trying to represent by themselves. I guess you could say it's more of hating the people who like the company more than it is the company itself.

Best policy for Adobe at this point is to ignore Apple.

How about tapping into other markets that have been neglected for ages, like x64? How about dumping some developer resources into fixing bugs in existing software? Sure, Apple is giving them grief at this point, but I don't think there is any need to feel sorry for Adobe. Maybe they'll garner some more sympathy once they stop completely ignoring bug reports and complaints from their current user base.

Relativity_17 said,
Best policy for Adobe at this point is to ignore Apple.

How about tapping into other markets that have been neglected for ages, like x64? How about dumping some developer resources into fixing bugs in existing software? Sure, Apple is giving them grief at this point, but I don't think there is any need to feel sorry for Adobe. Maybe they'll garner some more sympathy once they stop completely ignoring bug reports and complaints from their current user base.


+1

Dreamweaver CS4 has some pretty bugs in it that have remained unfixed, and I'm betting the only way I'll see them fixed is if I upgrade to CS5. Poor show Adobe.

See... http://www.adobe.com/support/d...ver/downloads_updaters.html .. not a single update for CS4. Sigh....

Edited by Ryster, Apr 9 2010, 10:35pm :

Relativity_17 said,
Best policy for Adobe at this point is to ignore Apple.

How about tapping into other markets that have been neglected for ages, like x64? How about dumping some developer resources into fixing bugs in existing software? Sure, Apple is giving them grief at this point, but I don't think there is any need to feel sorry for Adobe. Maybe they'll garner some more sympathy once they stop completely ignoring bug reports and complaints from their current user base.

+1

trip21 said,
Hey Adobe how about you forget about (cr)apple and give us Windows users a 64 bit player FINALLY!

Or why don't they just get rid of flash completely? I cringe at sites with flash embedded in them... Hell even the company I work for uses flash on their sites and I refuse to view it. It's old, it's a resource hog, and it crashes a lot. Also... why the hell can't I open a damn menu without it pausing? FAIL on Adobe's end for coding such a poor product for Mac OS.

I don't blame Apple for hating flash so much.

giantsnyy said,

Or why don't they just get rid of flash completely? I cringe at sites with flash embedded in them... Hell even the company I work for uses flash on their sites and I refuse to view it. It's old, it's a resource hog, and it crashes a lot. Also... why the hell can't I open a damn menu without it pausing? FAIL on Adobe's end for coding such a poor product for Mac OS.

I don't blame Apple for hating flash so much.

That's bad usage of Flash, not an issue with Flash itself. HTML5 does not replicate Flash, just parts.

Flash games aren't really translatable to HTML5+JS, for example.

Edited by Kirkburn, Apr 9 2010, 10:23pm :

giantsnyy said,

Or why don't they just get rid of flash completely? I cringe at sites with flash embedded in them... Hell even the company I work for uses flash on their sites and I refuse to view it. It's old, it's a resource hog, and it crashes a lot. Also... why the hell can't I open a damn menu without it pausing? FAIL on Adobe's end for coding such a poor product for Mac OS.

I don't blame Apple for hating flash so much.


you sir are a complete idiot who knows nothing about what is talking about! flash in combination with (the most recent) AS3 is far more powerful than java script and html5 can dream of atm. flash is not only used for video or audio player, thats just the tip of the iceberg and a kid with a sense of logic for computers can code a player for his video clip. not really in the mood to sit and explain to them apple fan-boy sheep... but if you care to know more check out the following website:
http://www.codecurry.com/2009/...tch-flash-actionscript.html

DeViL LaW said,


you sir are a complete idiot who knows nothing about what is talking about! flash in combination with (the most recent) AS3 is far more powerful than java script and html5 can dream of atm. flash is not only used for video or audio player, thats just the tip of the iceberg and a kid with a sense of logic for computers can code a player for his video clip. not really in the mood to sit and explain to them apple fan-boy sheep... but if you care to know more check out the following website:
http://www.codecurry.com/2009/...tch-flash-actionscript.html

Actually you are the idiot. Look up gamequery. A library built on top of the jQuery library. Together they can do anything flash can do without the need plugin. Also works on any phone with a javascript engine eg andriod, iphone, windows mobile. http://gamequery.onaluf.org/

SputnikGamer said,

Actually you are the idiot. Look up gamequery. A library built on top of the jQuery library. Together they can do anything flash can do without the need plugin. Also works on any phone with a javascript engine eg andriod, iphone, windows mobile. http://gamequery.onaluf.org/

Had a look, and you are clueless, at some point games have to stop and real life has to begin don't you think? I am actually talking about using flash as a full GUI, interactive, and dynamic, to be able to function with something a little bit more serious and practical in the industry. not everyone cares about games! besides, even in the website you so eagerly pointed out says its still in early development and the code might change "a lot" in the future versions. so again... why would you insist in coding in HTML5 (which is at least 5-10 years from being final) and javascript other than perfecting your own program on a solid programming language thats been in use for so long???

'[The operating system] can't swap out resources, it can't pause some threads while allowing others to run, it can't selectively notify, etc. Apple needs full access to a properly-compiled app to do the pull off the tricks they are with this new OS,'

This sounds like a flaw in the operating system. Why doesn't Windows or Windows Mobile ever have this problem? heck, why can I run Java on 6 year old candybar phones?

billyea said,
'[The operating system] can't swap out resources, it can't pause some threads while allowing others to run, it can't selectively notify, etc. Apple needs full access to a properly-compiled app to do the pull off the tricks they are with this new OS,'

This sounds like a flaw in the operating system. Why doesn't Windows or Windows Mobile ever have this problem? heck, why can I run Java on 6 year old candybar phones?

Either that or Apple is trying to conserve battery life and performance while not opening up their entire OS to foreign aliens that could potentially screw everything up?

billyea said,
'[The operating system] can't swap out resources, it can't pause some threads while allowing others to run, it can't selectively notify, etc. Apple needs full access to a properly-compiled app to do the pull off the tricks they are with this new OS,'

This sounds like a flaw in the operating system. Why doesn't Windows or Windows Mobile ever have this problem? heck, why can I run Java on 6 year old candybar phones?

Seeing that noone here has probably used the new OS yet, but sounds like there is something else going on. All of the official testers are saying the way it multitasks is completely different from how it is normally done. We, as end users may not see it, but is sounds like something in the background is the reason. Just speculation though as I haven't touched it yet myself.

vice le von said,
How can an entire ecosystem of apple devs be so obedient to Jobs at this point?

Because they value their jobs and Apple is doing really quite well?

From Brimelow's blog:

Comments disabled as I’m not interested in hearing from the Cupertino Comment SPAM bots.

Love it.

I think it's adobe and not apple that get's screwed in the end. Everyone is quietly moving to HTML 5 and Adobe is definitively a big loser in this. Eh, just a thought..I do not like neither of these two companies anyways.

erion2 said,
I think it's adobe and not apple that get's screwed in the end. Everyone is quietly moving to HTML 5 and Adobe is definitively a big loser in this. Eh, just a thought..I do not like neither of these two companies anyways.

Maybe... but if it gets rough adobe can just make Flash compile into an HTML 5 compatible architecture anyway, seeing as they've been able to compile it to nearly everything else.

erion2 said,
I think it's adobe and not apple that get's screwed in the end. Everyone is quietly moving to HTML 5 and Adobe is definitively a big loser in this. Eh, just a thought..I do not like neither of these two companies anyways.
But HTML5 is not a complete replacement for Flash. Why do people keep forgetting this? Flash does more than video.

Kirkburn said,
But HTML5 is not a complete replacement for Flash. Why do people keep forgetting this? Flash does more than video.

So does HTML5. HTML5 can play games also.

Kirkburn said,
But HTML5 is not a complete replacement for Flash. Why do people keep forgetting this? Flash does more than video.

It's not a replacement but it will have a pretty big dent in the market share, that's for sure.

Kirkburn said,
But HTML5 is not a complete replacement for Flash. Why do people keep forgetting this? Flash does more than video.

Agreed.

billyea said,

Maybe... but if it gets rough adobe can just make Flash compile into an HTML 5 compatible architecture anyway, seeing as they've been able to compile it to nearly everything else.

Yeah, I think that's long term what Adobe's going to have to do...

SputnikGamer said,
actually, yes it is. nothing you can do in flash that you cant do with jquery and now gamequery. fyi works on ipad/iphone including the games made in gamequery
http://jquery.com/
http://gamequery.onaluf.org/
Perhaps, but it's also a matter of feasibility. Flash is designed to make game/animation making simple.

That HTML5 (+ other stuff) can replicate it doesn't mean it will, or should. If games are still coded in Flash, people will still have Flash - it won't suddenly disappear. Java is not used much any more, yet it still has a HUGE install base.

Edited by Kirkburn, Apr 10 2010, 2:23pm :

erion2 said,
I think it's adobe and not apple that get's screwed in the end. Everyone is quietly moving to HTML 5 and Adobe is definitively a big loser in this. Eh, just a thought..I do not like neither of these two companies anyways.

Well I am a developer and still dependent to flash because people using ie dont upgrade and there is still a long road for html 5 to develop it lacks a lot.

Edited by Shishant, Apr 10 2010, 5:54pm :

techbeck said,
hahaha, Apple is not making any friends.

Adobe should threaten not to release Photoshop and Flash on the Mac platform, in the future that should ram the message home. Without Adobe products there's much less of a shine to Macs.

techbeck said,
Adobe should threaten not to release Photoshop and Flash on the Mac platform, in the future that should ram the message home. Without Adobe products there's much less of a shine to Macs.

Web developers would just start writing HTML5 versions of their sites, which would further kill the flash platform. Look at what happened with the iPad.

Edited by amon91, Apr 9 2010, 10:07pm :

amon91 said,

Web developers would just start writing HTML5 versions of their sites, which would further kill the flash platform. Look at what happened with the iPad.

HTML5 may / may not be better than Flash it's the principle, Apple is just locking out anything it deems a threat, Java, Silverlight, Opera Mini, etc.

thealexweb said,

HTML5 may / may not be better than Flash it's the principle, Apple is just locking out anything it deems a threat, Java, Silverlight, Opera Mini, etc.

How is Java or Sliverlight a threat to Apple?

bobbit said,

How is Java or Sliverlight a threat to Apple?

Well Java and Silverlight could rival QuickTime, I'm sure Apple would rather websites have their videos QuickTime powered than Silverlight.

thealexweb said,
Well Java and Silverlight could rival QuickTime, I'm sure Apple would rather websites have their videos QuickTime powered than Silverlight.

They could rival QT, they could. But so could HTML5 (and it does and will forever). I'll admit Apple has a pretty big hand in the HTML5/CSS3 pie, but that makes it all the better because then it runs far more natively on Apple's devices.

The applications Apple makes and accepts for its devices are designed around the hardware, thus reducing any major performance/battery issues. They can't do this with Flash, Java or Silverlight because they aren't native and, without bashing Adobe too much, we all know that Flash is incapable of not being a memory hog

bobbit said,

How is Java or Sliverlight a threat to Apple?

Have games embedded in web browsers, stops people getting apps on the app store. Less money for Apple

dave164 said,
Have games embedded in web browsers, stops people getting apps on the app store. Less money for Apple

A decent point! I concede on that regard.

dave164 said,

Have games embedded in web browsers, stops people getting apps on the app store. Less money for Apple

Yeah, I think that is a big part of it...

dave164 said,

Have games embedded in web browsers, stops people getting apps on the app store. Less money for Apple


I don't think people will want to depend on internet access to play games though.

thealexweb said,

Adobe should threaten not to release Photoshop and Flash on the Mac platform, in the future that should ram the message home. Without Adobe products there's much less of a shine to Macs.

What you said would be true few years ago, but not anymore. Apple products are now widely used in consumers market, the previous Professional market Apple used to hold is no longer matter as much to apple.

Now in terms of Adobe, while the Photoshop user base may be 9 - 1 for Windows and Mac, Adobe is actually making 20 - 30% of their Photoshop Profits from Apple users. Why? Because Apple users are generally the one who buys Software, and most there are A LOT more privates on PC.

If Adobe management decide that 20 % of their Profits from Mac doesn't matter, then so be it. But as an Shareholder i will be sure to hold my votes against it.

P.S - Flash was SH%T on Mac, and it still is. Flash 10.1 is only the first step they have make any improvement. But that was after apple decide to block Flash on iPhone. If Adobe was proactive in making Flash work well on Mobile device and Mac, no one will blame them. The truth is they are like Microsoft with Internet Explorer, only upping their development speed after Firefox consumes their Market Shares.

thealexweb said,

Well Java and Silverlight could rival QuickTime, I'm sure Apple would rather websites have their videos QuickTime powered than Silverlight.

and if MS did something like this it would be lawsuits and crying.

thealexweb said,

Adobe should threaten not to release Photoshop and Flash on the Mac platform, in the future that should ram the message home. Without Adobe products there's much less of a shine to Macs.


+1

amon91 said,

Web developers would just start writing HTML5 versions of their sites, which would further kill the flash platform. Look at what happened with the iPad.

yes, thats the same thing i thought

thealexweb said,
Adobe should threaten not to release Photoshop and Flash on the Mac platform, in the future that should ram the message home. Without Adobe products there's much less of a shine to Macs.

Indeed, good plan, they can make a press release at the same time, about how buggy the Apple platform is, which makes it impossible to design good software for, and how its software runs perfectly under Windows

thealexweb said,

Adobe should threaten not to release Photoshop and Flash on the Mac platform, in the future that should ram the message home. Without Adobe products there's much less of a shine to Macs.

I found Adobe to be one of the only useful features of my school's Macs (even though they were a CS behind the ones on my laptop) and looking at the previews of CS5, I think this'll be a huge deal, and there's going to be a lot of loyal users out there to get it. Denying it to Apple would **** off a lot of people, and would subsequently hurt Apple.