A Man's Right to Choose?

[remix17]

Would you care to site examples of your claim?

I could say your secular views (which I share many of) are clouded by the very same thing you acuse religion of...some sort of faith. NOT to hold both participants to the same standards only shows side A might be wrong.

We don't hold both participants to the same standarts because they have two very distinct roles. Sexual encounter where roles are arguably equal is over rather quickly. A man at this point is free, at least in a physical sense. A woman surrenders the rights to use her body to its full capacity for the next nine months, and then undergoes a rather unpleasant experience of giving birth. Social roles are different too. Man is usually the main provider. The woman takes care of the child. It’s been like that since the beginning of human civilization and somehow I doubt the general roles will change in the near future. (I hope I didn’t pis off any feminists just now). Also, it’s a lot easier for the man to leave his child and family, than it is for a woman do to the same. Her emotional attachment to her child is a lot greater than any man is likely to experience. So there are significant biological, social and economic differences that separate men and women.

[Fresh]

Repeat Abortions

You understand I am not advocating either dismiss their responsibility.

If it is up to the woman and the woman only (as your stance suggests) she should have protected it from the BAD MAN...right? She let the man (even though she was educated in our public schools) enter her body unprotected. So the argument of consistency still stands.

SHE got pregnant by allowing a man to enter her...she chooses to be the mother, why can the man forgoe his fatherhood? Oh...$$$! Rape is not in this one...

Edit: I may also add that does not support that women are equal. Women and Men both know what is at stake when having sex. If the woman says I am protected do not worry about it...what do I need her to sign a contract? :)

Edited April 24, 2008 by Fresh

[kernatch]

If it is up to the woman and the woman only (as your stance suggests) she should have protected it from the BAD MAN...right? She let the man (even though she was educated in our public schools) enter her body unprotected. So the argument of consistency still stands.

The argument of consistency can't work if the matter isn't internally consistent. You're looking at it from too high a level. I was initially intrigued by the suggestion that a man could free himself from financial responsibility just as a woman can free herself through abortion, but on closer examination there are too many differences. I don't have a better solution though. I don't think any solution will be completely fair or consistent.

[popsmear]

OK assume woman wants to abort and man doesn't. Who wins? Wouldn't it make more sense that since a woman is responsible for her body, she should have the upper hand in this decision? Otherwise the decision seems arbitrary. Who gets to decide? There is no 3rd party. Should the woman be forced to be pregnant for 9 months and experience painful childbirth?

Sure. She knew it was a possibility when she engaged in sexual activity.

Now assume the woman doesn't want to abort and man does. Again how do we decide? And lets assume that we decide in favor of the father, and lets assume the woman refuses to abort. Again should we physically force her? Doesn't it seem wrong?

Physically force her? No. In the article it mentions that the man have the option (as the woman does) to simply de-legalize himself with the baby (within a given time period) and then the woman is free to do as she chooses.

I think in cases such as that, the man could be allowed to opt-out of all legal obligations to the child if the mother chooses to have the child. Essentially, I think what the guy is arguing for is the ability to "abort" his legal obligations for the child.

Exactly.

I do agree, but there has to be something in place to force the guy to prove he didn't want kids and she knew that...otherwise you'll have tons of idiot guys who just don't want to pay claiming this.

Kind of like how you would have a ton of idiot women who just didn't want to deal with having a kid having abortions right?

I'm not sure. Surely aborting a child is a much tougher decision to make than a decision to "abort" financial responsibility. Men could easily abuse this option with little consequence.

See above. Argument can be made either way, and I am sure was made about abortion when it was first proposed legally.

HA! LMAO!

Serious...I brought this up a long time ago. If a mother is allowed to choose to be a mother then why is a man not allowed to choose if he wants to be the father.

I agree with popsmear; it is about consistency in the law. If a woman chooses to keep the child...well...?.?.? Why can the man not say...good for you...I choose not to be the father? Hands washed of responsibility :)

I think I just fainted.....

We want equal rights but we can't treat men and women as identical.

If a man can be allowed to abort financial responsibility of his child in a way which mirrors the abortion of a life, then, for consistencies sake, a restraining order must be placed on him so that he can never go near his child or learn anything about him/her. His child must be dead to him. He must take a pill that makes him bleed from his penis or undergo surgery which could damage his reproductive organs. I could go on.

Even here there are inconsistencies.

Wah wah.

[kernatch]

What?

I'd be interested to keep discussing this but I can't see anything worth replying to in your post.

[kernatch]

OK, maybe something:

Kind of like how you would have a ton of idiot women who just didn't want to deal with having a kid having abortions right?

You wish to defend the right of a man to not be a father. Presumably then, you don't think it would be idiotic for a man to wish to make use of this right.

However, you call women who have had abortions because they didn't want kids idiots.

Is your inconsistent approach due to a recognition of the massive difference between the way a man avoids fatherhood and the way a woman avoids motherhood?

[popsmear]

What?

I'd be interested to keep discussing this but I can't see anything worth replying to in your post.

There are only 2 that pertain to you (though you would be free to respond to anything).

1) Your argument about men skirting responsibility sounds just like arguments about women skirting responsibility and abortion. I am sure the same argument was made in [Roe vs Wade] time against abortion.

2) You talked about "fairness" and how much pain it is for the woman. While it is more pain for a woman than a man (duh) - the woman ultimately made the choice to engage in the sexual activity which has a known cause and effect of a child.

You wish to defend the right of a man to not be a father. Presumably then, you don't think it would be idiotic for a man to wish to make use of this right.

However, you call women who have had abortions because they didn't want kids idiots.

Is this because you recognise the massive difference in the way a man avoids fatherhood and the way a woman avoids motherhood?

If you look what I quoted, I only said "idiots" because that is the word Triliaeris used to describe men who wanted to skirt responsibility. I think anyone who tries to skirt it is an idiot, man or woman. However it is not pertinent to this discussion. There are some people who think having an abortion does not make you an idiot, and so be it.

[digipoi]

2) You talked about "fairness" and how much pain it is for the woman. While it is more pain for a woman than a man (duh) - the woman ultimately made the choice to engage in the sexual activity which has a known cause and effect of a child.

I just want to step in for a moment and say yes, women physically go through pain and restrictions while pregnant. A man much like myself at the moment has to still hold his job since its one income right now plus come home and babysit the other kids and do extra work around the house that the Mother can no longer do and put up with the natural anger of the Mother's jealousy whenever I have a beer or any type of fun. It is nearly as painful for the man, not as painful, but we BOTH go through the process.

[remix17]

There are some people who think having an abortion does not make you an idiot, and so be it.

How does having abortion make one an idiot? :huh:

[digipoi]

How does having abortion make one an idiot? :huh:

Kinda like when you eat a bunch of candy, don't brush your teeth, and get a rotten tooth. You pull it. Idiot for eating all that candy.

[kernatch]

And not pulling it isn't idiotic? Most bizarre analogy I've ever heard.

[remix17]

Kinda like when you eat a bunch of candy, don't brush your teeth, and get a rotten tooth. You pull it. Idiot for eating all that candy.

:huh:

[digipoi]

And not pulling it isn't idiotic? Most bizarre analogy I've ever heard.

lol dude :rofl: I have to laugh for not thinking that out but actually it was worth it in a sense. I'm after all human, the revelation! I am so damn tired.

:huh:

me too.

[popsmear]

I think the idea was there digi.

[Fresh]

If a mother chooses to have a baby and the father decides to opt out....what is the big deal?

Why should men be held financially responsible for what comes out of a woman? It is her body and was her choice.

[Joel]

I've said for years that it was a one-sided decision-making process. The way it is now, women hold all the cards. You can even have a guy not know their ex was pregnant and be held financially responsible years later.