Behind Windows 8. Agree or Disagree.

By freak180
in The Fast Ring (Insider Previews)

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Grand Master

Dot Matrix

Posted
Posted

Keyboard yes but Mouse no. Using the mouse with metro is just horrible imo. Just scrolling through the weather app is laughable.

I have yet to be horrified by it. I have been waiting forever for Microsoft to enlarge screen elements. No more squinting at my screen.

Grand Master

Hum

Posted
Posted
I just wish the Windows 8 threads would stop :/

Gotta agree. :laugh:

Windows 8 fans please remember the reverse:

Don't act like something is wrong with the people who don't want Windows 8.

We all have the right to accept or reject any new product.

Veteran

migo

Posted
Posted

Of course, it's much better designed than some of the hypercomplex interfaces Microsoft used to push out on the desktop, and is a fine tablet UI I'm sure, but, honestly, if I want to be using a well-designed tablet UI, I'll just use my iPad.

The iPad is only a well designed tablet UI for people with only one hand.

Veteran

migo

Posted
Posted

I have yet to be horrified by it. I have been waiting forever for Microsoft to enlarge screen elements. No more squinting at my screen.

I just started doing computer tech support for older people, and a lot of them like zooming to 125% or 150%, Metro will handle that by default. Of course some people who like squinty UIs where you can only find stuff because you know it's supposed to be there will be unhappy with it, but they're certainly not the "everyman" that keeps being quoted as someone who will hate Windows 8.

For one thing, in Windows 7 you could have an app pinned to the desktop, the taskbar, the start menu, or just in the all programs section. With Windows 8 it's just the start screen, no options to confuse you - either it's pinned or you search for it. That hugely simplifies things, and once people understand that, they'll be very happy for the changes Windows 8 brought.

  • Pygmy_Hippo
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Grand Master

jakem1

Posted
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IMO there are two types of people who dislike Windows 8:

  • The people who explain what they dislike and why they feel it doesn't work for them.
  • The people who have nothing useful to add other than "it's ****", "burn it with fire", "fail", etc.

People in the first category are entitled to their opinions as they've clearly thought about them. People in the second category are haters and trolls and their opinions and posts are worthless.

Unfortunately, every Windows 8 thread on this site is full of people like Techguy77 who falls clearly into the second category and just wastes everyone's time with ignorant posts and there are very few posts like the OP's that are worth reading. Unfortunately the mods don't seem to care that Neowin is becoming a second rate site and they're happy to let the haters take over.

  • Pygmy_Hippo
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Grand Master

bandit_liberty_rumble

Posted
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The iPad is only a well designed tablet UI for people with only one hand.

Whatever that's supposed to mean. But whether the iPad has a well designed tablet UI or not, wasn't really my point. Certainly it can be improved, and something like Metro Snap or the Sharing options in Metro would be nice to see on the iPad. My point is, I don't want the forced fullscreen touch-optimized iPad interface on my desktop , and neither do I want to see Metro (in the current form) there - for the reasons that I explained. Not that Metro isn't necessarily a good option for a subset of users. Especially once they are able to stay in that interface and not have to switch back to the desktop all the time. That may actually be the bigger issue right now. Simply that it will be confusing for beginner users that they have to constantly switch between two very different UI models.

Grand Master

bandit_liberty_rumble

Posted
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I just started doing computer tech support for older people, and a lot of them like zooming to 125% or 150%, Metro will handle that by default. Of course some people who like squinty UIs where you can only find stuff because you know it's supposed to be there will be unhappy with it, but they're certainly not the "everyman" that keeps being quoted as someone who will hate Windows 8.

May I remind you that the default UI on Metro is often completely hidden. Here's a screenshot of the PDF reader:

bus.png

And even after right-clicking there are no buttons for zooming. The user has to either be taught or already know to hold down CTRL and scroll with the mouse.

Grand Master

bandit_liberty_rumble

Posted
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PDF Reader and other Metro apps are also PREVIEW APPS.

So we aren't allowed to discuss them? I realize (hope) that some of the points I'm critiquing will change between now and the final release. But we really don't have anything else to go by to judge Metro. I don't doubt that it has potential, the question is whether it will actually be well executed. At this point, it fails at basic scenarios. What I'd be interested to know for example is how they are going to handle showing multiple documents in the same app at the same time? Or is that a use case for the desktop? Shouldn't there be example apps right about now showing how this will work, or am I missing something?

Veteran

migo

Posted
Posted

That's a very fair point. Once there are some better apps to work with, we'll see what the potential is like (or, alternatively, if they integrated legacy apps better into the Metro UI so you could use full screen apps as if they were Metro apps to get a sense of task switching and the like).

Grand Master

Eric Veteran

Posted
  • Veteran
Posted

So we aren't allowed to discuss them? I realize (hope) that some of the points I'm critiquing will change between now and the final release. But we really don't have anything else to go by to judge Metro. I don't doubt that it has potential, the question is whether it will actually be well executed. At this point, it fails at basic scenarios. What I'd be interested to know for example is how they are going to handle showing multiple documents in the same app at the same time? Or is that a use case for the desktop? Shouldn't there be example apps right about now showing how this will work, or am I missing something?

Discussing them is perfectly fine, but as previews it should be understood that Microsoft is saying that they are not what will be shipped with the RTM. They're very basic in functionality. (i.e.: not finished)

Mentor

encarta

Posted
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There are two possible scenarios:

1. Sinofsky is stupid and won't accept that they have to completely change the metro on desktop.

2. RTM will be completely different from what we're seeing now (with or without our feedback).

Win8 CP was released too early. If Win8 was a jaw-dropping OS (like Win7 beta) then all of us would tell our friends how awesome it is. They'd be interested. They'd want to try it. Right now, the majority of testers will just say, meh, it's cool, but not worth the upgrade, or, this is worthless piece of crap. My non-geeky friends listen to my advice. And that's just how it is. In the tech world, it starts with us, geeks. Win8, in the current state, won't get any recomendations from me. Period.

Experienced

Wyn6

Posted
Posted

There are two possible scenarios:

1. Sinofsky is stupid and won't accept that they have to completely change the metro on desktop.

2. RTM will be completely different from what we're seeing now (with or without our feedback).

Win8 CP was released too early. If Win8 was a jaw-dropping OS (like Win7 beta) then all of us would tell our friends how awesome it is. They'd be interested. They'd want to try it. Right now, the majority of testers will just say, meh, it's cool, but not worth the upgrade, or, this is worthless piece of crap. My non-geeky friends listen to my advice. And that's just how it is. In the tech world, it starts with us, geeks. Win8, in the current state, won't get any recomendations from me. Period.

As we all know, advice tends to carry some bias. But, the best advisors are those who realize people are capable of making their own decisions thus give them opinion and fact in equal measure. Only when we wish to push an agenda do we attempt to pass off our opinions as facts.

For example, I'm not a fan of android for reasons I won't go into on a Windows 8 forum. But, a co-worker came to me and asked me which phone I think she should get out of two different android phones. I could've tried to push her towards the phone I use (Windows Phone) by giving her biased opinions but that's not what she asked. She knew what type of phone I used but asked about android. I gave her the facts on both of the phones and my opinions on both of the phones so that she could make an informed decision as it was her money she was spending.

So, what you have here, on Neowin, are a lot of geeks who will tell non-geeks to not purchase 8 or that it is seismic fail, or Metro sucks, whatever. In my opinion, this is the wrong way to go about it. Give them the facts and give them the true pros and cons, let them try it for themselves, form their own opinions and let them make a decision.

Microsoft doesn't really have to worry. Observing various opinions on 8 web wide, it appears, to me at least, that there is as much love for 8 as there is hate with most of that hate being techies. Someone else's observations may be different of course.

Grand Master

bandit_liberty_rumble

Posted
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Microsoft doesn't really have to worry. Observing various opinions on 8 web wide, it appears, to me at least, that there is as much love for 8 as there is hate with most of that hate being techies. Someone else's observations may be different of course.

I seem to have fallen victim to my filter bubble then, because I've noticed comparatively little love for Windows 8 when it comes to the concept of Metro on the Desktop, especially combined with the schizophrenic nature of the OS (part desktop, part tablet UI). The most positive reaction seems to be, that people don't mind it or tell you that it can be avoided. Care to share a link?

Enthusiast

FalseAgent

Posted
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That is just Tablet with keyboard in front it, it doesn't make it Desktop. Sorry.

Not everyone wants messy wires all over their tables connected to a huge screen. Personally i'm sick of it as well - when something goes wrong with my brother's desktop, I have no idea what could gone wrong. After trying everything (I even swapped out the PSU), the problem was.......the power cord had fused. Seriously, I have had enough of that crap. It's about time computers moved to a simpler, easier, wireless, and trouble-free setup.

Considering you said, you could as well say that this HP Omni all-in-one PC is just a huge tablet with keyboard:

HP-Omni-27-All-in-One.jpg

seriously, that isn't very much different than what Dot Matrix posted:

jk-post-pc-system.jpeg?tag=content;siu-container

if both are going to be touch-enabled and have the same UI, then i'd say it would be pretty sweet.

If you're talking about how you don't like how something has been implemented, and how you think it could be done better, that's one thing, and it's fine. If, on the other hand, you're saying metro is terrible for desktops and MS should reverse everything they've done, you should most definitely get bashed for it.

Exactly. It's okay to write about how things can be better with metro, but writing an article about ditching metro (and subsequently, bringing the start menu back) is a no-go. That just isn't going to happen. Enough with threads and articles about ditching metro.

Tablets are computers.

Damn straight.

Well said my friend. I guess if you sync a wireless controller we can all agree its a gaming console too? :D

Yes. It can be a (portable) gaming console. If the iPad could sync with a wireless controller, it could potentially kill the PSVita.

Keyboard yes but Mouse no. Using the mouse with metro is just horrible imo. Just scrolling through the weather app is laughable.

Let me ask you: Have you seen a better Weather app for Windows 7? You probably haven't. Like it or not, that weather app you describe as "laughable" is the best weather app Windows has ever gotten. Get over it.

Unfortunately the mods don't seem to care that Neowin is becoming a second rate site and they're happy to let the haters take over.

Trust me, I come from Winmatrix, and the situation over there is much MUCH worse. Mods are non-existent over there. Posting here on Neowin is such a breath of fresh air :)

Sinofsky is far from "stupid".

Yeah, he's the same guy behind Windows 7, the OS we all love so much. They could have continued that if microsoft wanted to, but it's clear that Windows needs to evolve, the desktop experience has been lagging behind ever since smartphones took off.

Grand Master

bandit_liberty_rumble

Posted
Posted
It's okay to write about how things can be better with metro, but writing an article about ditching metro (and subsequently, bringing the start menu back) is a no-go.

What's wrong with discussing whether it even makes sense to combine a tablet with a desktop UI? Of all people, even Paul Thurrott, is questioning that decision.

this two-headed, Frankenstein-like welding of two completely different user experiences?

I don't know.

And I think he's right about this at least:

Ultimately, I think the thing we all need to realize is that Windows 8 is primarily a consumer play, or at least an attempt to thwart or at least slow iPad adoption across the board.
Veteran

xWhiplash

Posted
Posted

Can somebody please, for once, explain to my why everybody is all of the sudden saying the desktop UI sucks and NEEDS to evolve NOW?

What is so horribly wrong with the desktop UI that it absolutely NEEDS to evolve NOW, right this second? The fact that it is (basically) the same UI design since Windows 95? Why does that make it bad?

It is what I am used to. I grew up with Windows 95 and older. It is what I know without even thinking how to do something. I am a geek, and always need the latest and greatest, but I will not be getting Windows 8.

There is nothing wrong with the desktop UI. It is more evolved than Metro is (ON THE DESKTOP), I guess people are just blinded to see that Windows 95-7 have better UI than Windows 8 (ON THE DESKTOP).

I would rather use Windows 95 than Windows 8 on a desktop computer, because I prefer the existing UI design on the desktop.

Again, I said it as much as I could above, but I am talking about Windows 8 on the DESKTOP. I think Metro is amazing for tablets and phones. It makes sense on those devices. I do not have my phone or tablet on three monitors while working on every program I have installed side by side.

Mentor

encarta

Posted
Posted

1. So, what you have here, on Neowin, are a lot of geeks who will tell non-geeks to not purchase 8 or that it is seismic fail, or Metro sucks, whatever. In my opinion, this is the wrong way to go about it. Give them the facts and give them the true pros and cons, let them try it for themselves, form their own opinions and let them make a decision.

2. Microsoft doesn't really have to worry. Observing various opinions on 8 web wide, it appears, to me at least, that there is as much love for 8 as there is hate with most of that hate being techies. Someone else's observations may be different of course.

1. I have win8 installed on one of my notebooks. I gave it to my friends (about 10, not at the same time), this is windows 8. Use it. Most of them said that it's ugly and/or boring. Some of them accidentally found corners. They said it's a stupid idea. I showed them around, how you do this and that, and DID NOT tell them that I hate win8 as it is now. Most of them din't like it. Some hated it. Some said they'd use it if they had to (@work). Those people don't care about the new kernel, new copy dialog, new task manager, faster boot times, etc. It's UX that counts for them. And win8 UX IS horrible.

2. Can you provide any links? And no, Paul Thurrott doesn't count.

P.S. I sent this to those friends a few days ago: http://www.theverge.com/2012/2/24/2822891/windows-desktop-ui-concept

You know what? They really, really liked it. Why? Beacause it's similar to what they're used to, but it's still something new, something fresh. And this is how MS should make the transition from the classic desktop to metro.

Grand Master

jakem1

Posted
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What's wrong with discussing whether it even makes sense to combine a tablet with a desktop UI? Of all people, even Paul Thurrott, is questioning that decision.

You can discuss it if you like but what's the point? Microsoft aren't going to reverse four or more years of planning and development because of a few comments on Neowin. At this point you have to either like it or lump it.

1. I have win8 installed on one of my notebooks. I gave it to my friends (about 10, not at the same time), this is windows 8. Use it. Most of them said that it's ugly and/or boring. Some of them accidentally found corners. They said it's a stupid idea. I showed them around, how you do this and that, and DID NOT tell them that I hate win8 as it is now. Most of them din't like it. Some hated it. Some said they'd use it if they had to (@work). Those people don't care about the new kernel, new copy dialog, new task manager, faster boot times, etc. It's UX that counts for them. And win8 UX IS horrible.

2. Can you provide any links? And no, Paul Thurrott doesn't count.

P.S. I sent this to those friends a few days ago: http://www.theverge....ktop-ui-concept

You know what? They really, really liked it. Why? Beacause it's similar to what they're used to, but it's still something new, something fresh. And this is how MS should make the transition from the classic desktop to metro.

So your anecdotes are worth more than his anecdotes? Right.

Grand Master

Dot Matrix

Posted
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Can somebody please, for once, explain to my why everybody is all of the sudden saying the desktop UI sucks and NEEDS to evolve NOW?

PCs are evolving... Tablets, All in ones, Transformers, Ultrabooks, Kinect for PC.... The time has come where we need a new OS that can adapt with the user to different devices. The UI of Windows past has been denounced by consumers of these devices, which as been made pretty clear by any tech blog/news site you read.

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