61 replies to this topic

[Ryoken]

The officer retreated a few times to try and calm the situation, but it didn't work.. And because people are soo scared about Tazers that they don't want the police to have them, then the gun is the only real option.

You can't just let him run around, what if someone else unaware of the situation shows up and he goes after them..

And dealing with him one-on-one is just a no-go.. if an officer feels threatened, then the officer should never get within a few metres of the individual, because most dangerous place for police to be in, is in CQC.. Remember, most cops that get shot, get shot with their own gun. Once you are that close, anything that happen, regardless of training.. and if the man was on some sort of drugs, that made him ignore pain, then he's just that much more dangerous.

This isn't the ideal outcome. All can agree on that. But this campus officer didn't just show up waving a gun and shooting. He tried to calm down the situation, tried to back off, but to no avail.

[statm1]

Did the officer forget that he could of shot the guy in the feet or arms or aimed for the shoulders. Eventually no matter what drugs hes on he won't have the ability to get up. Instead he went straight for the deadly shot......

[Growled]

statm1, on 08 October 2012 - 02:55, said:

Did the officer forget that he could of shot the guy in the feet or arms or aimed for the shoulders. Eventually no matter what drugs hes on he won't have the ability to get up. Instead he went straight for the deadly shot......

I have never been in that situation but I can imagine that I would not be taking any chances either.

[JaredFrost]

rippleman, on 07 October 2012 - 15:40, said:

baton wouldn't help with drugs, taser would only help till the charge ran out... then the guard is dead.... he did the right thing and could have saved a couple innocent lives....

It's not a one or the other situation, a baton maybe not, but you can tase someone, if that doesn't work, tase again, if this mutant of a human happens
to be immune to electricity, THEN you use deadly force, this isn't the movies, someone with 50,000-100,000 volts pumped into their bodies will
be stopped in their tracks.

Growled, on 07 October 2012 - 18:02, said:

Sounds like the officer didn't really have a whole lot of choices.

Sure he did, he had lots of choices, but that's easy to say with hindsight and all.

statm1, on 08 October 2012 - 02:55, said:

Did the officer forget that he could of shot the guy in the feet or arms or aimed for the shoulders. Eventually no matter what drugs hes on he won't have the ability to get up. Instead he went straight for the deadly shot......

Again, this isn't the movies, hitting a moving target in the arms or legs is very hard, this isn't CoD this is something called real life.

--

Not having been there, or seen the situation, I still think the officer erred, if a less deadly option was available, that should have been used first
And if it wasn't available, why the hell not, this is a college, you'll get all kinds of drunk kids causing problems, and this man simply could have been
drunk, it doesn't have to be drugs.

[Dot Matrix]

moloko, on 07 October 2012 - 14:48, said:

sounds like this guy might of been high? Maybe a taser would be better to use in this situation.

Maybe, but depending on what was in his system, a taser might not have worked. Drugs have been known to enhance the body enough to reduce and nullify the electrical impulses the taser delivers.

[statm1]

JaredFrost, on 08 October 2012 - 03:10, said:

Again, this isn't the movies, hitting a moving target in the arms or legs is very hard, this isn't CoD this is something called real life.

Umm, so officers only have gun training in the movies? Of course this is real life and not some d**n game. He had the opportunity to shoot somewhere else besides the chest, period.

[JaredFrost]

statm1, on 08 October 2012 - 03:19, said:

Umm, so officers only have gun training in the movies? Of course this is real life and not some d**n game. He had the opportunity to shoot somewhere else besides the chest, period.

Of course they have training, the training is to shoot for center mass, how different would the story be if he aimed for the leg, missed 5 times, finally hit him and meanwhile
5 other bullets ricocheted, maybe hitting someone else minding their own business in their dorm room.

Firearms are used for deadly force, period. I was also arguing he chose the wrong option, but he performed the wrong option correctly.

[tiagosilva29]

JaredFrost said:

Not having been there, or seen the situation, I still think the officer erred, if a less deadly option was available, that should have been used first And if it wasn't available, why the hell not, this is a college, you'll get all kinds of drunk kids causing problems, and this man simply could have been drunk, it doesn't have to be drugs.

The article doesn't seem to imply that there was a less deadly option available. And secondly, I am not sure the kid was drunk. I don't know if you ever saw a drunk man being shot, but they do not ignore the pain and charge again at the shooter. If you think the officer did not properly do de-escalation... let's wait for the conclusion of the investigation.

statm1 said:

Umm, so officers only have gun training in the movies?

A police officer's training (like any other combat training) asserts that a firearm must be used for defense only as it's the highest level of force: deadly. When you shoot, you shoot to kill. And a (more) guaranteed hit is the center of the body.

[Ryoken]

statm1, on 08 October 2012 - 02:55, said:

Did the officer forget that he could of shot the guy in the feet or arms or aimed for the shoulders. Eventually no matter what drugs hes on he won't have the ability to get up. Instead he went straight for the deadly shot......

Forget.. no.
They are trained NOT to do that.

When an Officer pulls a gun, unless they are SWAT or otherwise specially trained, their are to shoot center mass (chest), and normally in a burst of 2-3 shots.

It offers the best chance of rendering the target innert.

A gun is for deadly force, not for trying to hit feet and such.. Not to mention, shoot at the foot, miss, it deflects off the concret and hits someone, and the world goes nuts too.. No, you shoot at the target, in the place with the best chance to Hit the target.

JaredFrost, on 08 October 2012 - 03:52, said:

Of course they have training, the training is to shoot for center mass, how different would the story be if he aimed for the leg, missed 5 times, finally hit him and meanwhile
5 other bullets ricocheted, maybe hitting someone else minding their own business in their dorm room.

Firearms are used for deadly force, period. I was also arguing he chose the wrong option, but he performed the wrong option correctly.

Not to mention the arteries, in your legs especially, will kill you just as well as a center mass shot..

You'd make it if you were next to a hospital maybe, but short of that you'll bleed out before an ambulance will even get turned in your direction.


*edit*
Oh and one last thing.. ever fired a handgun ?
They are not the most accurate weapon even in ideal conditions... add a heart rate, adrenaline, and any kind of distance at all, and hitting something like a foot becomes a very low-chance shot for most officers. Police, at least most, are far from the best shots. They CAN shoot at a range, and meet a minimum standard, but in most cases, they are outclassed by most hunters, hobbyist, etc. You don't want them taking that shot..

Now give them a rifle, a scope, and some more training, like SWAT gets, then ya, the risk might be worth it. But for beat cops with a sidearm, no..

[siah1214]

Natural (or unnatural in this case) selection is a bitch.

[mohan_168]

If the guard would have used his bare hands and failed, the freshman could have taken hold of the gun and could have caused havoc.

[+RisenTyranade]

If I was the cop I would of shot him too. He could of been on anything, I have seen it over here in my town where a guy high on god knows what attacked a police officer so the police officer struck him with his baton which is fair enough, the guy who was high, grabbed it, ripped it out of the officers hand and began to hit the officer with it so 8 other officers had to tackle him to the floor and put their knees on him to stop him getting up and it took another 15 minutes to cuff the man. He also got CS Sprayed too and that did basically nothing...

See that officer was lucky he had back-up and over here police don't carry guns apart from trained armed patrols like CO19 but the officer in this story did not have back-up so if he didn't have a gun he could be dead or seriously injured, heck if this kid was on bath salts he could of started eating the officers face, so yeah.

Also these people saying "shoot him in the leg hurr durr" have you ever heard of the femoral artery? if he got shot in the leg and it went through that without immediate medical care the guy is as good as dead and I am English and even I know you shoot for Center Mass because it is the largest part of any given human body which means you have a greater chance of disabling the person in question. Seriously comments like "shoot him in the shoulder/leg/arm/foot" are well... Borderline Peter Griffin stupid and let me tell you that is pretty dumb.

[theyarecomingforyou]

It's shocking how many people seem unconcerned about this incident. This is yet another case where an unarmed individual was gunned down by police unnecessarily. In the UK police are able to successfully apprehend suspects without being armed and with minimal risk to themselves or the general public. Police officers should be deployed in pairs and should easily be able to take down an unarmed individual - if not then they disengage and radio in for backup. The US police system doesn't work - it's not fit for purpose. It was only recently that we saw an unarmed double amputee (missing an arm and a leg) with a mental condition in a wheelchair shot dead by a police officer.

It's sick that this is allowed to happen and nobody seems to bat an eyelid. What a reprehensible culture.

Fractalize, on 08 October 2012 - 05:43, said:

If I was the cop I would of shot him too. He could of been on anything, I have seen it over here in my town where a guy high on god knows what attacked a police officer so the police officer struck him with his baton which is fair enough, the guy who was high, grabbed it, ripped it out of the officers hand and began to hit the officer with it so 8 other officers had to tackle him to the floor and put their knees on him to stop him getting up and it took another 15 minutes to cuff the man. He also got CS Sprayed too and that did basically nothing...

So the suspect was taken in alive to face the justice system and the police officer was fine... yet you're supporting the US approach where people are simply gunned down because it's more convenient? Sure it's not nice for a police officer to be assaulted but neither is it for somebody to die as a result. People need to be afforded due process and shooting them dead is not due process.

[FightAndLive]

Quote

If I was the cop I would of shot him too. He could of been on anything

Being prior service USMC I would agree shooting first and asking questions later is safer for P.D, but if you see the pics of this guy he isn't buff by any standards. He could have easily had his partner behind him with his sidearm out and the cop in front pulls out his tazer and try to detain the suspect that way.

[+RisenTyranade]

theyarecomingforyou, on 08 October 2012 - 05:45, said:

So the suspect was taken in alive to face the justice system and the police officer was fine... yet you're supporting the US approach where people are simply gunned down because it's more convenient? Sure it's not nice for a police officer to be assaulted but neither is it for somebody to die as a result. People need to be afforded due process and shooting them dead is not due process.

I do to some degree but I don't support the US approach entirely and I would of preferred that he was brought in alive to face trial and due process BUT I agree with what the officer did to the extent of, this guy is on drugs and he is not calming down and I have seen the skinniest people drop the biggest guys and anyone is capable of anything at any given time, heck I know I am, I've been arrested (not charged and it only happened once, I lost someone and I was angry with myself but had a hard time controlling my emotions) because I've gotten so angry and if I was shot I wouldn't blame the officer for it, so yeah if the guy was detained that is great he can be charged with whatever and go before the courts but in this instance I do not blame the police officer for shooting him either because he could of been scared for his life.

FightAndLive, on 08 October 2012 - 05:51, said:

[/color]

Being prior service USMC I would agree shooting first and asking questions later is safer for P.D, but if you see the pics of this guy he isn't buff by any standards. He could have easily had his partner behind him with his sidearm out and the cop in front pulls out his Tazer and try to detain the suspect that way.

Like I said above, I have seen some stick insect guys drop some really big, well built men and yeah the guy could of been Tasered but I am not going to blame the police officer for his actions because I feel under the circumstances the officer had to make a call and he made one where someone died but the guy could of done ANYTHING to the police officer and at the time if he is attacking a police officer he could of been on his way to attack someone else or could of just beaten someone to death with a baseball bat and he burnt his clothes that and that is why he naked (I am not saying he did but anything is possible) you just don't know.

I am not saying in every case like this that an officer should shoot the man but people have to realize that they have to think FAST and make split second decisions, yeah it is easy to say Tazer him, spray him or use a baton after the fact but in the heat of the moment you go for what you feel is the most effective thing at the time of this happening. And you have to remember that officer will have to live for the rest of his life knowing he killed a young man who could of had so much potential in life and he took it away in the heat of the moment.