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Microsoft begs Web devs not to make WebKit the new IE6


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#16 Bonfire

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 13:49

So what's the deal with IE6? What was so special about it? I don't understand.


It's special because it won't go away. It came out in 2001 and people still use it to this day. IE basically owned the market back then and Microsoft just sat back and let it stagnate. They didn't release IE7 until years later and only because they suddenly had competition from Firefox. Their pure laziness and greed stuck the world with a proprietary outdated browser with terrible standards compliance for nearly a decade. IE is only now becoming a good browser again, but its reputation is so badly tarnished that it may be too late to save it.


#17 Boz

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 13:50

I remember when people claimed that about IE, and it was just as wrong then too.


Yeah, the only difference is that Webkit is open while IE was and still is proprietary. It's a night and day difference. Not to mention that browsers who use Webkit (Safari, Chrome) are updated transparently to the user making the very latest version immediately adopted at 90% marketshare.

It's not even beginning to compare to IE6 and never will.

IE10 will continue to linger just like everything microsoft and IE long after IE 11 is out and this fragmentation is the worst thing that has caused the web the biggest damage in progressing forward.

#18 MikeChipshop

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 13:50

Sorry to be the spanner in the works but Chrome still has superior HTML5 support


That is indeed true but with every developer release the Chrome browser slowly becomes more and more bloated and far from what a browser should be while IE10 appears to be moving in a better direction. Of course these things are always in flux and hopefully all this healthy competition will leave us end consumes (and us developers) with a win win situation.

#19 Javik

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 13:53

That is indeed true but with every developer release the Chrome browser slowly becomes more and more bloated and far from what a browser should be while IE10 appears to be moving in a better direction. Of course these things are always in flux and hopefully all this healthy competition will leave us end consumes (and us developers) with a win win situation.


That's an odd assertion because Chrome still burns through benchmarks like Peacekeeper with a score twice as high as that as IE attains, it still starts up faster, and the installation package is still nearly the same size for me (between 2010 and 2012 the download size increased by about 10 MB and that can be pretty much wholly accounted for by the inclusion of Flash and the HTML5 video decoder plugins), the binary and DLL's are pretty much the same size as ever before. The installation file for IE10 however was something like 48 MB, about 12 MB more than the Chrome installer.

#20 Boz

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 13:55

It's special because it won't go away. It came out in 2001 and people still use it to this day. IE basically owned the market back then and Microsoft just sat back and let it stagnate. They didn't release IE7 until years later and only because they suddenly had competition from Firefox. Their pure laziness and greed stuck the world with a proprietary outdated browser with terrible standards compliance for nearly a decade. IE is only now becoming a good browser again, but its reputation is so badly tarnished that it may be too late to save it.


No matter how good IE 10 is and it's compliance with W3C it is plagued by the same problem. Microsoft. As long as the browser is proprietary it shouldn't be taken seriously and will continue to do damage to the web.

As noted, Microsoft should join Webkit and be done with it. Then, they can contribute to the webkit base, agree on new features with Apple and Google and everyone supports same things in the future. It would mean they would also make transparent updating to IE so it's never stagnant and have users run a different version but the latest. At that point they wouldn't even have an issue with monopoly because their browser base would be open source and would be on the same playing field with Google and Apple.

In other words they could improve it and make the web truly unified and also make developers' lives much easier.

#21 tanjiajun_34

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 13:58

That is indeed true but with every developer release the Chrome browser slowly becomes more and more bloated and far from what a browser should be while IE10 appears to be moving in a better direction. Of course these things are always in flux and hopefully all this healthy competition will leave us end consumes (and us developers) with a win win situation.

more and more bloated? It still feels good and I don't mind the few MB increase in the installation file.

#22 Max Norris

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 13:58

That's an odd assertion because Chrome still burns through benchmarks like Peacekeeper with a score twice as high as that as IE attains, it still starts up faster, and the installation package is still nearly the same size for me (between 2010 and 2012 the download size increased by about 10 MB and that can be pretty much wholly accounted for by the inclusion of Flash and the HTML5 video decoder plugins), the binary and DLL's are pretty much the same size as ever before. The installation file for IE10 however was something like 48 MB, about 12 MB more than the Chrome installer.

Perhaps meaning bloated in the sense of resource usage. On my particular hardware anyway using the current official releases with a similar set of addons, Chromium typically uses 3-4 times as much memory as Firefox (at least, seen it even higher) and starts up a bit slower. Pretty much the only place where Chromium seems faster is on benchmark sites.. day to day usage, I find Firefox to be overall faster and smoother, I rarely use it but IE overall seems faster (and significantly lighter) as well on the day to day stuff.

#23 jakem1

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 13:59

Webkit is the standard. For both desktop and mobile. End of.


That's ridiculous. Ignoring the fact that webkit has a tiny share of the desktop market and the mobile market isn't big enough yet to matter, what you're advocating is no different to the situation that existed when IE6 owned the market. The only standards that matter are the ones agreed by W3C and other bodies and it's up to browsers to maintain compatibility.

Given that Webkit is an open source rendering engine, The argument about proprietary bits is stupid. Either open the source to Trident, or examine Webkit and build better support for those features into IE. Sounds like Microsoft are pulling an Apple here and blaming someone else for their lazy coding.


Sounds like you don't know what you're talking about.

#24 Javik

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 14:00

Perhaps meaning bloated in the sense of resource usage. On my particular hardware anyway using the current official releases with a similar set of addons, Chromium typically uses 3-4 times as much memory as Firefox (at least, seen it even higher) and starts up a bit slower. Pretty much the only place where Chromium seems faster is on benchmark sites.. day to day usage, I find Firefox to be overall faster and smoother.


All browsers with tab process isolation consume more memory than those that lack it. I'm happy to sacrifice a bit of memory usage for the knowledge that a tab crash won't completely torpedo every browser window I have open. And unlike Firefox, Chrome hasn't been plagued by memory leaks since it's inception.

That's ridiculous. Ignoring the fact that webkit has a tiny share of the desktop market and the mobile market isn't big enough yet to matter, what you're advocating is no different to the situation that existed when IE6 owned the market. The only standards that matter are the ones agreed by W3C and other bodies and it's up to browsers to maintain compatibility.


Chrome is the world's #1 web browser on the desktop. I'm not sure that qualifies as a "tiny share" ;) Sorry, who doesn't know what they're talking about? :laugh:

http://techland.time...nless-it-didnt/

#25 MikeChipshop

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 14:02

more and more bloated? It still feels good and I don't mind the few MB increase in the installation file.


Don't get me wrong, i'm a Chrome user and it still p***** on the competition. Maybe it's in my head but it just doesn't seem as smooth as it used to.

any way the whole point of this thread is about the rendering engines and use of non standard methods of rendering content which i am all against.

#26 jakem1

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 14:02

Yeah, the only difference is that Webkit is open while IE was and still is proprietary. It's a night and day difference. Not to mention that browsers who use Webkit (Safari, Chrome) are updated transparently to the user making the very latest version immediately adopted at 90% marketshare.

It's not even beginning to compare to IE6 and never will.

IE10 will continue to linger just like everything microsoft and IE long after IE 11 is out and this fragmentation is the worst thing that has caused the web the biggest damage in progressing forward.


Whether webkit is open source or not is irrelevant. If they're including and encouraging the use of proprietary extension then they're doing precisely what Microsoft tried to do - get developers to rely on non-standard code to improve market share.

#27 Boz

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 14:03

That's ridiculous. Ignoring the fact that webkit has a tiny share of the desktop market and the mobile market isn't big enough yet to matter, what you're advocating is no different to the situation that existed when IE6 owned the market.



LOL, telling me that I don't know what I'm talking about and then comparing an open source HTML rendering engine that everyone can contribute to and improve with IE6 is hilarious. I think it's pretty clear who doesn't know what they are talking about here.

The problem with IE is that it's proprietary. That's why it stagnated. Company who owned it, Microsoft, got lazy and didn't do anything to improve it while not allowing everyone else to contribute nor even get access to it which is a HUGE difference.

And btw,

Posted Image

43.2% of browser marketshare belongs to Webkit, while 99% on mobile makes it a standard.

#28 HawkMan

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 14:04

It doesn't matter if browsers use different rendering engines, or if some browsers are closed source, what matters is that the standards they use and follow are ACTUAL web standards. and not something they themselves made up, like Chrome did here, Chrome needs to stick to the actual standards.

Also it's been proven time and time again, that artificial web standards tests are absolutely useless outside of e-peen enlargement for the browser that specifically is coded to score high on the test, not to follow the standards.

#29 Max Norris

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 14:04

All browsers with tab process isolation consume more memory than those that lack it. I'm happy to sacrifice a bit of memory usage for the knowledge that a tab crash won't completely torpedo every browser window I have open. And unlike Firefox, Chrome hasn't been plagued by memory leaks since it's inception.

I haven't seen memory leaks since Firefox version 4, never mind having Firefox actually crash.. the only time I've had something go wrong with Firefox is Flash occasionally tanking once every few weeks.. and that doesn't crash the browser. And I wouldn't mind "a bit" more memory usage (if they could get the addons and extendability up to Firefox's level), but when one browser can handle multiple tabs with a couple hundred megs of memory and the other is using well over a gigabyte showing the same tabs? That's a lot more than "a bit"...

#30 Boz

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 14:06

Whether webkit is open source or not is irrelevant.


It's irrelevant? Having everyone access to the engine's base and being able to build upon it, improve it, independent from any one company is irrelevant to you?

Yeah, please. You clearly don't know what you are talking about nor you have an idea of how open source works.

It doesn't matter if browsers use different rendering engines, or if some browsers are closed source, what matters is that the standards they use and follow are ACTUAL web standards


It matters because Microsoft can follow W3C standards now and when it gets 80% of marketshare again they can do the same thing they did with IE6 and nobody can do anything about it. You don't see how that's a possibility?

With webkit that can't happen because it is now owned, nor developed exclusively by a single company. How can you people not get that.



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