97 replies to this topic 4 votes

[firey]

Dot Matrix, on 21 November 2012 - 03:08, said:

The developers say otherwise. Who am I going to trust more? You or the actual people who worked on the project?

Your call. Considering countless individuals, and teams have been able to bring back a start menu, I find it highly unlikely the minds behind the windows code couldn't do it effectively, or "without problems". Just sayin'

Be like LG not putting a door on their fridges because it took up room and caused problems when closed, and a bunch of people making a door that fit perfectly, and functioned 100%. To me that would seem like LG did it for a reason, and felt like saying it couldn't be done instead of saying: "We were told not to do it."

[scaramonga]

Dot Matrix, on 21 November 2012 - 03:08, said:

The developers say otherwise. Who am I going to trust more? You or the actual people who worked on the @#%@#^ project?

Oh you will trust Microsoft lol, just a hunch

**Caught ya before edit**

[Shane Nokes]

firey, on 21 November 2012 - 03:11, said:

Your call. Considering countless individuals, and teams have been able to bring back a start menu, I find it highly unlikely the minds behind the windows code couldn't do it effectively, or "without problems". Just sayin'

Be like LG not putting a door on their fridges because it took up room and caused problems when closed, and a bunch of people making a door that fit perfectly, and functioned 100%. To me that would seem like LG did it for a reason, and felt like saying it couldn't be done instead of saying: "We were told not to do it."

No, it would be more like LG putting out a new model with a new door design and people not liking it and wanting to put the door from their old model on the new one.

The problem is the old door doesn't fit on the new model and causes some issues...so they build their own door that works...but it's not quite the same thing.

[nekkidtruth]

Shane Nokes, on 21 November 2012 - 03:08, said:

Actually that was in reply to another user who said:




Attacks on my mental state because I actually try to help folks, and in the course of that mention where I've worked and how I come by my knowledge?

I do that to ward off unnecessary questions, because I actually am a fairly busy person and am trying to answer as much as I can.

If it's not appreciated (which seems to be the case with some) then I'll just go back to lurking. I did it for years...and I can do it again.

If you feel it's necessary to go from one extreme to the other, by all means. However, I'd rather you take it as constructive criticism as it would be unfortunate to lose the knowledge you bring to these forums. Someone suggested something about putting your "experience" in your signature a few days ago I think it was. Might be time to rethink your response to that. It beats having you repeat it multiple times in a thread.

As for the Ford example, thing is I know what I know about what I know. I don't feel I should have to prove anything really. If I choose to assist someone and their response is "prove it" or "You don't know what you're talking about", my response is usually "Do it your way. I'll see you when you get back asking for help."

[Dashel]

Is it really so hard to grasp that this wasn't a monetary decision or a technical one when a third party can do it for free or $5 of their time? There is no way to spin that otherwise. This was simply fallout from larger business/design decsions.

[Dot Matrix]

Osiris, on 21 November 2012 - 02:31, said:

None of the options above achieve the direction Microsoft is heading, so saying these were alternatives is not a solution.

* A unified user experience across a range of devices
* A common UI across those devices
* An operating system capable of interacting effective with new types of user input; motion, touch, kinect, voice etc
* Common design language to leverage applications/games across the ecosystem.

Brandon Live, on 31 July 2012 - 17:26, said:

The start menu you're referring to had a lot of bugs because it wasn't kept in sync with other changes in the platform (i.e. MFU was totally broken, for one). It could not launch Metro style applications. It had no means to even represent them, because Metro style apps provide different resources. Its search infrastructure was similarly incompatible, didn't support new localization features, etc. It did not support our modern DPI scaling mechanism. It had problems with the new multi-mon features (i.e. secondary task bars). And these are just the things I remember off the top of my head. And then, even if we had put in all that effort (or just enough to keep it stumbling along), and sacrificed other features or overall quality, it would have created a disjointed experience which have been awful to use and to support.

Contrary to what you may think, we don't make these decisions on a whim.

firey, on 21 November 2012 - 03:11, said:

Your call. Considering countless individuals, and teams have been able to bring back a start menu, I find it highly unlikely the minds behind the windows code couldn't do it effectively, or "without problems". Just sayin'.

Sounds pretty technical and goal oriented to me. Dragging out the old Menu would have been akin to shooting your foot. Bringing back the Start Menu isn't going to achieve those goals. Those third party tools are not going to achieve those goals. I know Osiris (most likely) isn't a Microsoft employee, but BrandonLive very much is. And I'll take his word over anyone else's here any day. What do you want more? A Start Menu dragged out past it's prime? Or new features? Perhaps we can convince Microsoft that Multi-mon features are a joke, and should just kill them off so we can get the Start Menu back. While we're at it, tell Windows 8 developers their apps will be killed off. And that Surface thing? Eh, abandon it. It'll never be anything great without a Start Menu!

[LogicalApex]

Dot Matrix, on 21 November 2012 - 03:08, said:

The developers say otherwise. Who am I going to trust more? You or the actual people who worked on the @#%@#^ project?

Reality is you have no proof to back up your claims. They do.

As if Microsoft developers would go on record saying they disagree with the direction given to them by their leadership. If you don't understand why employees don't make those statements in public when there is no anonymity then you're probably unemployed or working at McDonald's.

MS Engineers will backup the product they shipped, no matter how bad the product is (not saying Windows 8 overall is bad). This is the reason you had MS engineers praising Windows Mobile up until the point MS threw it out the door, for instance.

Additionally, seriously if Stardock can do Start8 you want me to believe that Microsoft couldn't in any way have done something better? Seriously, I'm not delusional.

Shane Nokes, on 21 November 2012 - 03:11, said:

So someone tells you the truth, and you don't want to accept it. You can fight that good fight all you want.

Yes folks, it's all a conspiracy...to drive you insane so that Microsoft can take over the world...the removal of the start menu is just the beginning...mwahahahaha...seriously...ignore listed.



It won't do any good...he's got conspiracy on the brain and won't listen to anyone...

It isn't a conspiracy. There is a lot of pressure for Microsoft to get their foot in the mobile market. Windows Phone has been abysmal. I'm a Windows Phone developer and I love the platform and I love coding for it, but I'd be lying to myself if I didn't call its sales abysmal. Microsoft can't afford to let abysmal tablet sales happen as well. As a result, they are leveraging Desktop users to try and win back developers.

The reality is new development focuses on iOS first, Android second. Microsoft is trying to convince developers they need to focus on WinRT because it is shipping on millions of new devices and is front stage.

This isn't some conspiracy theory. They are business decisions that a first year BBA student can see being made!

But I guess instead of answering me post you just dodge them. Thanks.

[Luis Mazza]

Shane, you may have good intentions, but it's clear to everyone that you're trying to make (poor) arguments based on a mix of reality, past and some top secret observations. All of that is not working fine and you're acting like someone who failed but can't really accept that. If it's not true, I'm sorry. But if it is (and you don't need to tell us) you should search for bipolar disorder and see if it makes sense to you. Good luck

[Dot Matrix]

LogicalApex, on 21 November 2012 - 03:22, said:

As if Microsoft developers would go on record saying they disagree with the direction given to them by their leadership. If you don't understand why employees don't make those statements in public when there is no anonymity then you're probably unemployed or working at McDonald's.

MS Engineers will backup the product they shipped, no matter how bad the product is (not saying Windows 8 overall is bad). This is the reason you had MS engineers praising Windows Mobile up until the point MS threw it out the door, for instance.

Additionally, seriously if Stardock can do Start8 you want me to believe that Microsoft couldn't in any way have done something better? Seriously, I'm not delusional.

I don't consider Stardock's option better. In no way shape or form does it advance Microsoft's goals of unified systems. And yes, Developer's have freedom to talk technicalities. They do it all the time.

[scaramonga]

Jesus, Bi-Polar, he will know all about that too....lol

Dot Matrix, on 21 November 2012 - 03:31, said:

I don't consider Stardock's option better. In no way shape or form does it advance Microsoft's goals of unified systems.

You don't. But a hell of a lot do.

[LogicalApex]

Dot Matrix, on 21 November 2012 - 03:31, said:

I don't consider Stardock's option better. In no way shape or form does it advance Microsoft's goals of unified systems. And yes, Developer's have freedom to talk technicalities. They do it all the time.

The removal of the Start Menu isn't a technical decision, but I'm not explaining this anymore. I feel I have done a fair job of explaining this.

I'd argue Start8 does a better job than Windows 8 default does of adding Metro while maintaining what makes the Desktop... well... A Desktop.

But debating this part with you is pointless as it is subjective and well ALL know your view. I was asking Shane for technical reasons to back up his statement...

[scaramonga]

Disturbingly, it's now Stardock's No.1 software lol? WTF!! Bang goes Galactic Civilizations lol. Gotta credit Win8 for something I guess lol.

[Dot Matrix]

LogicalApex, on 21 November 2012 - 03:35, said:

I'd argue Start8 does a better job than Windows 8 default does of adding Metro while maintaining what makes the Desktop... well... A Desktop.

The Start Screen doesn't make my desktop, any less of a desktop. Not sure where this silliness is coming from. It still has a keyboard, and it still has a mouse. Desktop space? Yep, got that too: Win+D, boom, desktop. There you go.

[LogicalApex]

Dot Matrix, on 21 November 2012 - 03:42, said:

The Start Screen doesn't make my desktop, any less of a desktop. Not sure where this silliness is coming from. It still has a keyboard, and it still has a mouse. Desktop space? Yep, got that too: Win+D, boom, desktop. There you go.

It creates an impediment to the workflow that is used by many to actually do stuff. This has been argued to the bone though and I'm not re-entering this debate. People who use their PC primarily for content consumption are, generally, happy with it and those who don't, generally, aren't.

I'm not against the Start Menu existing. I'm annoyed by the removal of any options to control this thing, but as I said this was done for business reasons. You can't really use Desktop users as pawns to try and pull developers from iOS and Android when the only devices you're guaranteed to sell, traditional PCs, are flooded with users opting out of the new system.

[Shane Nokes]

Dot Matrix, on 21 November 2012 - 03:42, said:

The Start Screen doesn't make my desktop, any less of a desktop. Not sure where this silliness is coming from. It still has a keyboard, and it still has a mouse. Desktop space? Yep, got that too: Win+D, boom, desktop. There you go.

Dot, it's pointless to explain. Logical isn't going to listen...even if you had irrefutable proof...even if there were no possible argument...Logical would still reject what is being said.