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#46 Luis Mazza

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 20:15

And yet they fit together and make sense somehow don't they? That's what's been referred to in Christianity and Western philosophy as "theodicy".


"Fact is sometimes used synonymously with truth, as distinct from opinions, falsehoods, or matters of taste. This use is found in such phrases as, It is a fact that the cup is blue orMatter of fact,[3] and "... not history, nor fact, but imagination." Filmmaker Werner Herzog distinguishes clearly between the two, claiming that "fact creates norms, and truth illumination"."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fact


So, maybe yes.


#47 brianshapiro

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 20:18

"Fact is sometimes used synonymously with truth, as distinct from opinions, falsehoods, or matters of taste. This use is found in such phrases as, It is a fact that the cup is blue orMatter of fact,[3] and "... not history, nor fact, but imagination." Filmmaker Werner Herzog distinguishes clearly between the two, claiming that "fact creates norms, and truth illumination"."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fact

So, maybe yes.


Fact isn't synonymous with truth but they overlap, and aren't quite opposites.

Anyway, the fact that there may be many truths is also compatible with the idea that there's one ultimate truth; those are also two truths to the same fact.

#48 Luis Mazza

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 20:22

Fact isn't synonymous with truth but they overlap, and aren't quite opposites.

Anyway, the fact that there may be many truths is also compatible with the idea that there's one ultimate truth; those are also two truths to the same fact.


They don't overlap. Fact is a fact, a description... it is more towards the scientific way of seeing things. The truth is an interpretation.

#49 brianshapiro

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 20:26

They don't overlap. Fact is a fact, a description... it is more towards the scientific way of seeing things. The truth is an interpretation.


That's a forced definition. Its true that I'm typing out a response to you, and its a fact that I'm typing out a response to you, mean pretty much the same thing, and neither statement is a misuse of the word 'truth' or 'fact'. Both are correct language. The words have different connotation, but most of the time have the same denotation.

#50 Luis Mazza

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 20:31

That's a forced definition. Its true that I'm typing out a response to you, and its a fact that I'm typing out a response to you, mean pretty much the same thing, and neither statement is a misuse of the word 'truth' or 'fact'. Both are correct language. The words have different connotation, but most of the time have the same denotation.


Not forced... You have to think. It is true for you that we're typing. But it is actually a fact that we're having a conversation, not that you are typing. Because see... you could be a robot. I wouldn't know that. So you are not you... you may be a robot. But for you it is true that YOU are typing, but for me, that may not be true.

#51 brianshapiro

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 20:34

Not forced... You have to think. It is true for you that we're typing. But it is actually a fact that we're having a conversation, not that you are typing. Because see... you could be a robot. I wouldn't know that. So you are not you... you may be a robot. But for you it is true that YOU are typing, but for me, that may not be true.


But if I were to realize I'm not typing, it wouldn't be true to me either, would it? Just because something is held as true doesn't imply its true anymore than something is held as fact implies its fact. The implication is that language is all subjective, and not objective, which I don't agree with and I don't think has anything to do with the word "true."

What is true is you can talk about things like "slightly true", "kinda true", while you can't talk about things like "slightly factual." But you can also say something is "absolutely true", and something absolutely true is no different than a fact.

#52 Luis Mazza

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 20:38

That's a forced definition. Its true that I'm typing out a response to you, and its a fact that I'm typing out a response to you, mean pretty much the same thing, and neither statement is a misuse of the word 'truth' or 'fact'. Both are correct language. The words have different connotation, but most of the time have the same denotation.


I have to agree that a fact may be overlapped by a truth. But in this case I think it becomes truth due to the fact that it is perceived personally by someone or by others, who can attest that it is actually a fact.

So we have an agreement, I think?

#53 brianshapiro

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 20:45

I have to agree that a fact may be overlapped by a truth. But in this case I think it becomes truth due to the fact that it is perceived personally by someone or by others, who can attest that it is actually a fact.

So we have an agreement, I think?


I think truth has more to do with the rightness of a statement, where fact has to do with the rightness of what a statement is referring to. But that can pretty much mean the same thing. If a statement is wrong, its wrong. Language can also be right in some contexts, and wrong in other contexts, depending on what the word is used to mean. In that case, its true in one context and not in another. Its just a difference of grammar, in the end. And that's all that it is, imo, grammar.

Anyway I think this is getting off topic from the thread , don't want to scare others off the original topic.

There have been a lot of Western philosophers who have critiqued the Eastern point of view though.

#54 Luis Mazza

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 20:49

I think truth has more to do with the rightness of a statement, where fact has to do with the rightness of what a statement is referring to. But that can pretty much mean the same thing. If a statement is wrong, its wrong. Language can also be right in some contexts, and wrong in other contexts, depending on what the word is used to mean. In that case, its true in one context and not in another. Its just a difference of grammar, in the end. And that's all that it is, imo, grammar.

Anyway I think this is getting off topic from the thread , don't want to scare others off the original topic.

There have been a lot of Western philosophers who have critiqued the Eastern point of view though.


Ok then.

#55 Marshall

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 20:56

Thread Cleaned

Please try to keep things civil. We all know religion is a touchy subject.



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