28 posts in this topic

Posted

[b]WASHINGTON[/b] (AP)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Physics?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Stonecutters?
1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

We need another Nikola Tesla with his idea of wireless electricity.
1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Eveready and Duracell will not be pleased.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

The oil companies are holding battery tech back. Actually, not holding back more buying up all the tech that could threaten their business model.

Any tech that could replace petrol in cars is going to get bought up and sat on until the oil runs out.

Any battery tech not specifically designed for cars can be put to use on automotive tech. So even if a company or individual develops a battery that powers a smart phone for 20 days full use it still gets suppressed.

It is the same with solar panels. There is a way to make solar panels the size of a car roof that powers the car for all day and with the right battery tech, all night. No way will that see the light of day for he foreseeable future. Further, the gas and electricity companies don't want you to have solar panels on your roof that powers your house for ever.
3 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Energy tech is slow because ROI (return on investment) is really slow. If a new battery could last twice as long as current ones, or a car could get twice the mileage as current ones, it would be worth the investment. But new tech isn't offering that drastic of improvements, so the high cost of new tech isn't worth it. Changing infrastructure is insanely expensive and slow, so the only way to upgrade to something new is for the savings to be seen almost immediately.

That's what's holding energy tech back. And the deep-down cause of most of it is physics.
1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

[quote name='tuckeratlarge' timestamp='1358969252' post='595473814']
The oil companies are holding battery tech back. Actually, not holding back more buying up all the tech that could threaten their business model.
[/quote]
No it's more like battery tech is pathetic as it is. It simply isn't the future, sorry.

Batteries cost a fortune and they offer mediocre gains year after year.

[quote]Any tech that could replace petrol in cars is going to get bought up and sat on until the oil runs out.[/quote]
Actually the tech to replace petrol is already out there in certain parts of the world.

Honda, Benz, BMW, Hyundai, VW, Fiat, Nissan, Audi and Mazda all have / are testing fuel cell cars in various parts of the world. California has hydrogen filling stations in certain cities, and I'm sure other parts of the world have them too.

If you have the money and you're lucky you can lease a Honda Clarity FCX in california for $600 a month (and that includes insurance against any accidents / malfunctions). Toyota and Benz both plan to make their fuel cell cars commercially available for around $50k in 2014/2015.

Technically these cars are electric and are powered by an electric motor. But instead of having to charge them for 10+ hours every night so you can go 50 miles the next day all you do is take it to a hydrogen fueling station, fill it up in 3 mins and continue on your way. Just like the cars of today.

And before you claim that will never happen because oil companies will suppress it. Guess who owns the hydrogen filling stations in California?

[img]http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/.a/6a00d8341c630a53ef014e885eea0e970d-320wi[/img]

It's Royal Dutch Shell. A massive oil company.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

[quote name='-Razorfold' timestamp='1358970190' post='595473874']
No it's more like battery tech is pathetic as it is. It simply isn't the future, sorry.

Batteries cost a fortune and they offer mediocre gains year after year.


Actually the tech to replace petrol is already out there in certain parts of the world.

Honda, Benz, BMW, Hyundai, VW, Fiat, Nissan, Audi and Mazda all have / are testing fuel cell cars in various parts of the world. California has hydrogen filling stations in certain cities, and I'm sure other parts of the world have them too.

If you have the money and you're lucky you can lease a Honda Clarity FCX in california for $600 a month (and that includes insurance against any accidents / malfunctions). Toyota and Benz both plan to make their fuel cell cars commercially available for around $50k in 2014/2015.

Technically these cars are electric and are powered by an electric motor. But instead of having to charge them for 10+ hours every night so you can go 50 miles the next day all you do is take it to a hydrogen fueling station, fill it up in 3 mins and continue on your way. Just like the cars of today.

And before you claim that will never happen because oil companies will suppress it. Guess who owns the hydrogen filling stations in California?

[img]http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/.a/6a00d8341c630a53ef014e885eea0e970d-320wi[/img]

It's Royal Dutch Shell. A massive oil company.
[/quote]

And how much did RDS get reimbursed to install the infrastructure for hydrogen in California?

Why do you think that propane/LNG/CNG (all far older technologies than hydrogen - and all related) - a relative bargain given current natural-gas prices compared to gasoline, let alone diesel fuel - has gone exactly nowhere outside of - of all places - military fleet usage? (Joint Forces Base Andrews is one of the cleanest - in terms of emissions - military bases around, and it;s far from small. The home of Air Force One runs over HALF their fleet of vehicles on CNG - including three-fourths that would ordinarily be powered by diesel, such as military ambulances and fire trucks.)

Hydrogen fueling faces that same obstacle - even worse, there IS no network of LH pipelines crisscrossing the US - which certainly is not the case with natural gas - which can use the existing pipeline network; yet propane and natural-gas fueling (outside of the military and large fleets) has been a non-starter despite being around (dating back to propane) half my lifetime or longer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Several Meijer hypermarkets in the Detroit area have natural gas in their filling stations. This makes tons more sense than an H2 infrastructure because of how H2 effects pipelines and other equipment - its molecules are so tiny as to penetrate the structures and degrade them.

With their new EV sedan Tesla has started building high-speed solar charging stations up & down California. While unused they feed the grid, and when charging a vehicle both the grid and solar panels feed the car. They're sized to he net energy-positive, producing more power than used, which pays for the hardware and Tesla owners can recharge their vehicles for free.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

[quote]What holds Energy Tech back ?[/quote]

- Greed
- Conflict of the interests

The oil companies hold patents that are key to the development of alternative to oil energy sources.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

[quote name='zhiVago' timestamp='1360147903' post='595504664']

- Greed
- Conflict of the interests[/quote]

Physics, materials science, the laws of economics.......

[Quote]The oil companies hold patents that are key to the development of alternative to oil energy sources.[/quote]

Actually, most of the really useful patents are held by DoE and several universities like MIT, C-M etc.

Theory is great & makes fun headlines, but making these techs production ready, economically sound, developing the infrastructure and evading the usual 'Not In My Back Yard' is much, much harder. Some of the worst NIMBY's are environmental groups.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

[quote name='DocM' timestamp='1360151166' post='595504740']
Physics, materials science, the laws of economics.......
[/quote]

I seriously doubt that we have or are near the limits.

For example many years ago there was a technology announced that was going to allow you to charge a mobile phone in a couple of minutes for a full charge that would last all day.
The technology for that involved the arrangement of cells inside a battery iir that allowed for more efficient charging.
Whatever happened to that? Shouldn't we have seen that by now?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Large companies that pull alot of strings hold the world back, they don't want the money going anywhere else

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

[quote name='DocM' timestamp='1360151166' post='595504740']
Physics, materials science, the laws of economics.......
[/quote]

There was an American inventor who created a method to retrofit all cars so they could run on water.

The man was poisoned and all his work was discredited.

http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/local/2007/07/08/hydroman.ART_ART_07-08-07_A1_4V77MOK.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley_Meyer%27s_water_fuel_cell

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

[quote name='zhiVago' timestamp='1360153861' post='595504780']

There was an American inventor who created a method to retrofit all cars so they could run on water.

The man was poisoned and all his work was discredited.

http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/local/2007/07/08/hydroman.ART_ART_07-08-07_A1_4V77MOK.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley_Meyer%27s_water_fuel_cell[/quote]

Read hour own sources -

[quote]Theory violation: First law of thermodynamics[1][2][/quote]

The Meyer Fuel Cell was a sham, simple electrolysis disguised as new tech, and Meyer himself lost a lawsuit by investors charging him with fraud.

This isn't to say that splitting water can't work; there was an advance last week using metal nanoparticles with the H2 driving a fuel cell, but it is VERY far from practicality. Fuel cells are very expensive. That and processing the nanoparticles blows up the economics.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

[quote name='DocM' timestamp='1360154066' post='595504784']
Read your own sources -
[/quote]

Yes, I have read them. The wikipedia page is for general information.

The following is from the article:

[quote]At dinner that night, Meyer told them: "The Arabs wanted to offer me [b]$250 million to stop[/b] today. You and this lovely family can live in peace and prosperity the rest of your days."[/quote]

[quote]
Stephen Meyer recalled a phone call to his brother's home in the 1980s.
"He turned to me and said, 'They just offered me [b]$800 million[/b]. Should I take it?'
[/quote]

[quote name='DocM' timestamp='1360154066' post='595504784']
The Meyer Fuel Cell was a sham, [b]simple electrolysis disguised as new tech[/b], and Meyer himself lost a lawsuit by investors charging him with fraud.
[/quote]

yeap, it's so simple (Physics 101) and cheap that the control system had to kill him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Energy density (either energy per mass, energy per volume or even energy per price) and the physics behind it are what holds things back. The energy density of batteries sucks and is already not too far from theoretical limits. The energy density of hydrogen (per volume) sucks as well. As far as batteries go, most of the improvement is in making them cheaper and safer. Hydrogen doesn't make much sense from a practical standpoint at the moment considering its mostly made by destroying a perfectly good fuel for vehicles - natural gas - along with myriad other reasons. I would argue that electric vehicles are still what we should work for, since electricity is still one of our most efficiently produced "fuels". When it becomes mainstream relies largely on when the price of batteries goes down sufficiently or when the price of fossil fuels goes up sufficiently

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

I agree that electric [b]drivelines[/b] are the future, but the rub is if they will use high density batteries, ultra-capacitors, a mix of the two, or one of the prevoous buffering a fuel cell. The automakers are investing heavily on all of the above.

Even though GM isn't selling a lot of Volts its battery + range extender (can be an IC engine, turbine, fuel cell, whatever) driveline puts them in a great position to use a battery / ultra-capacitor buffered fuel cell. They have a ton of patented intellectual property from that program.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

[quote name='DocM' timestamp='1360151166' post='595504740']
Some of the worst NIMBY's are environmental groups.
[/quote]

Most of them should be shot on sight. :p

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

[quote name='zhiVago' timestamp='1360153861' post='595504780']
There was an American inventor who created a method to retrofit all cars so they could run on water.

The man was poisoned and all his work was discredited.

[url="http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/local/2007/07/08/hydroman.ART_ART_07-08-07_A1_4V77MOK.html"]http://www.dispatch....A1_4V77MOK.html[/url]

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley_Meyer%27s_water_fuel_cell"]http://en.wikipedia....water_fuel_cell[/url]
[/quote]

You have fallen for a conman free energy and cheap diesel/gasoline alternatives are among the most persistant and common scams out there.

They scam gullible conspiracy theorists into buying plans and parts,

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUgUF5M3FTI[/media]
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6FxJh_Rr34[/media]
They scam investors out of millions.

This is nothing special its common.

[url="http://www.water4gasstore.com/"]http://www.water4gasstore.com/[/url]

[quote name='zhiVago' timestamp='1360153861' post='595504780']Yes, I have read them. The wikipedia page is for general information.[/quote]


And the rest comes from a dark dark place.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Cold fusion, hmm hmm...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

"Cold fusion" is real, it's actually called muon-catalyzed fusion, but it doesn't work as Pons & Fleischman described and the energy produced is miniscule compared to the energy required to make muons.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

[quote]Why do you think that propane/LNG/CNG (all far older technologies than hydrogen - and all related) - a relative bargain given current natural-gas prices compared to gasoline, let alone diesel fuel - has gone exactly nowhere outside of - of all places - military fleet usage? (Joint Forces Base Andrews is one of the cleanest - in terms of emissions - military bases around, and it;s far from small. The home of Air Force One runs over HALF their fleet of vehicles on CNG - including three-fourths that would ordinarily be powered by diesel, such as military ambulances and fire trucks.)[/quote]
In other countries LNG/CNG are used quite a lot actually, it's only in America where it isn't.

For example, all taxis in HK (of which there are quite a lot) are all LNG. A lot of taxis in India are LNG too. For a long time in the US nobody cared about other sources because gas was so ridiculously cheap but as it keeps increasing more people will stop using it and switching over to other means.

Now your other means could be battery powered, which goes <100 miles, takes an entire night to recharge and then costs you thousands to replace the batteries after couple of years. Or you can switch to things like hydrogen, or CNG. Battery technology just hasn't increased as fast as we'd like it to. Maybe in the next 10 years there will be some giant breakthrough, but the chances of that happening isn't very high.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Reality is all that's holding back the dream of "alternate" energy, they aren't viable and won't be, simple facts

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.