22 replies to this topic

[Arkos Reed]

theyarecomingforyou, on 24 January 2013 - 17:58, said:

It concerns me that anti-Semitism is treated more seriously than other forms of persecution, especially when the holocaust is invoked to justify it (though I'm not saying that's the case here). Anti-Semitism should fall under 'racial discrimination' or 'religious hatred', both of which are valid offences to prosecute. And let me be very clear, I am not excusing such racist comments in any way - I find them abhorrent. I just think it's dangerous to treat anti-Semitism differently to the hatred of Muslims or black people, especially when it is used to shield Israel from any criticism.

There's a cultural question when it comes about knowing why anti-semitism is treated differently. Jews often consider themselves as the oppressed choosen people, it's in their culture (I'm not talking about religion there), I have some Jewish friends whom I talked about this, and they agreed. The direct consequence is that they are extremely vocal about any kind of agression against them, hence the perceived difference in treatment.

[theyarecomingforyou]

Arkos Reed, on 24 January 2013 - 18:04, said:

There's a cultural question when it comes about knowing why anti-semitism is treated differently. Jews often consider themselves as the oppressed choosen people, it's in their culture (I'm not talking about religion there), I have some Jewish friends whom I talked about this, and they agreed. The direct consequence is that they are extremely vocal about any kind of agression against them, hence the perceived difference in treatment.

And that's understandable given their troubled history. But I have an issue when anti-Semitism is considered a separate crime, especially as it is usually treated more seriously (especially in Europe due to Hitler's legacy). It's even more concerning when critics of Israel are automatically labelled "anti-Semites" (even if they are Jewish) when elements within Israel - particularly the Zionist / settler movement - are committing crimes comparable to that of the Nazis. Racism is racism.

[brianshapiro]

Arkos Reed, on 24 January 2013 - 18:04, said:

There's a cultural question when it comes about knowing why anti-semitism is treated differently. Jews often consider themselves as the oppressed choosen people, it's in their culture (I'm not talking about religion there), I have some Jewish friends whom I talked about this, and they agreed. The direct consequence is that they are extremely vocal about any kind of agression against them, hence the perceived difference in treatment.

Yea a lot of Jews consider themselves an oppressed people, though its not any different from the fact that black people consider themselves an oppressed people, or Muslims consider themselves an oppressed people. There's examples of hypersensitivity in all these cases.

As for the Israel thing, I find it ironic that some of the same people criticizing being called 'anti-Semitic' for opposing Israel also are happy to call people homophobic for disagreeing with same-sex marriage, or racist for pointing out problems in the black community (out of wedlock births, and so on), or anti-Muslim for arguing Islam historically is a reactionary religion. Part of the reason they may notice overuse of "anti-semitism" and not overuse of "homophobic", "racist" and "Islamphobe" is their politics. People on the left who are anti-Israel but also anti-conservative so like to accuse conservatives of being bigots. Just sayin'.

There were alleged homophobic tweets in this case,btw, http://arstechnica.c...-semitic-users/ , ie #SiMonFilsEstGay (if my son is gay)

[Arkos Reed]

brianshapiro, on 24 January 2013 - 18:19, said:

Yea a lot of Jews consider themselves an oppressed people, though its not any different from the fact that black people consider themselves an oppressed people, or Muslims consider themselves an oppressed people. There's examples of hypersensitivity in all these cases.

TBH, Muslims and Blacks don't get much airtime about this, or aren't as vocal as Jews over here, it's however true that there have been some very public cases.

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As for the Israel thing, I find it ironic that some of the same people criticizing being called 'anti-Semitic' for opposing Israel also are happy to call people homophobic for disagreeing with same-sex marriage, or racist for pointing out problems in the black community (out of wedlock births, and so on), or anti-Muslim for arguing Islam historically is a reactionary religion. Part of the reason they may notice overuse of "anti-semitism" and not overuse of "homophobic", "racist" and "Islamphobe" is their politics. People on the left who are anti-Israel but also anti-conservative so like to accuse conservatives of being bigots. Just sayin'.

True, however politic is a domain I won't touch even with a 10 Ft pole.

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There were alleged homophobic tweets in this case,btw, http://arstechnica.c...-semitic-users/ , ie #SiMonFilsEstGay (if my son is gay)

Also true, and as far as I know these will also be prosecuted.

[theyarecomingforyou]

brianshapiro, on 24 January 2013 - 18:19, said:

As for the Israel thing, I find it ironic that some of the same people criticizing being called 'anti-Semitic' for opposing Israel also are happy to call people homophobic for disagreeing with same-sex marriage, or racist for pointing out problems in the black community (out of wedlock births, and so on), or anti-Muslim for arguing Islam historically is a reactionary religion. Part of the reason they may notice overuse of "anti-semitism" and not overuse of "homophobic", "racist" and "Islamphobe" is their politics. People on the left who are anti-Israel but also anti-conservative so like to accuse conservatives of being bigots. Just sayin'.

I agree. My point certainly isn't to excuse people who call everyone opposed to gay marriage homophobic, as I know people who aren't homophobic but oppose gay marriage (my Dad, for instance). Nor is it right to label any analysis of issues by race as inherently racist, though that can be a fine line. But it's wrong to single out anti-Semitism, just like it would be wrong for racism against black people to be covered by different laws than racism against white people or Asian people. It's counter-productive to race relations.

[Arkos Reed]

theyarecomingforyou, on 24 January 2013 - 18:36, said:

I agree. My point certainly isn't to excuse people who call everyone opposed to gay marriage homophobic, as I know people who aren't homophobic but oppose gay marriage (my Dad, for instance). Nor is it right to label any analysis of issues by race as inherently racist, though that can be a fine line. But it's wrong to single out anti-Semitism, just like it would be wrong for racism against black people to be covered by different laws than racism against white people or Asian people. It's counter-productive to race relations.

Not to mention the scientific fact that there are no "races" there is just one Homo Sapiens humanity (the Homo Sapiens Sapiens denomination has been abandonned in 2003), with a few differences here and there depending on how populations were mixed in the last 200.000 years. I know I sound like a grammar Nazi, but this misuse of language always irritates me.

[theyarecomingforyou]

Arkos Reed, on 24 January 2013 - 18:46, said:

Not to mention the scientific fact that there are no "races" there is just one Homo Sapiens humanity (the Homo Sapiens Sapiens denomination has been abandonned in 2003), with a few differences here and there depending on how populations were mixed in the last 200.000 years. I know I sound like a grammar Nazi, but this misuse of language always irritates me.

Actually, race is different to species.

[Growled]

Hate is always wrong.