Chosing distribution

[jaroli.tamas]

Greetings for everyone!

I don't know if I'm writting to the right section, please forgive me if not, but this is the first time I'm creating a topic on this forum!

My question seems simple for the first sight, but it's a little complicated.

Which distribution should I chose?

There are 3 options:

-Debian

-Fuduntu

-PCLinuxOS

Here are my most important point of view:

-full ability to customize the desktop/themes/panels (e.g. fully remove the existing ones)/icons, etc... comfortable usage is very important for me

-good hardware support like networking, and sound

-the ability to install the latest (stable) version of softwares + a wild scale of the avaible programs/packages + easy install of programs

-fast and stable

-good media support (e.g. easy usage of my mp3/avi/etc files, and flash videos)

-mail/messaging and others integration to notification area, and indicators

-good for programming/developing. Generally I develop in C/C++, openGL, Java, Python, Assembly, Flash, Shell script (sometimes Lisp, Pearl, C#), building PHP + MySQL webcontents, etc...

-prefered DMs are Gnome2 and XFCE4

-Working Wine!

-Google Chrome/Chromium :)

-easy backup of the / and save it to /home, + sync, and restore

-Dropbox and Ubuntu one autosync

Here are the optional points:

-nice and helpful community

-updates often

-power saving

-compatible with my Samsung Galaxy Ace android phone and iPod shuffle

-fast boot

Summary: I'm searching for a distro for studying (university), work (programming), casual home usage (movies, music, internet, mail), which is stable, fast and knows the attributions above.

My laptop:

Name/Type:

Packard Bell EasyNote TM85

Specs:

Core i3 CPU

4GB RAM

Radeon HD5470 GPU

320GB HDD

To make the choice more easy for me, my idea is to give marks for each points/each distros on a ten scale.

For example:

Debian:

customizable: 7/10

speed: 8/10

etc

Fuduntu:

packages 6/10

etc..

Like a poll, just separated to a few points.

I'm using Linux Distros since Ubuntu 7.10, and tried out many-many kind of distros, but now these 3 ones left to chose. I hate Ubuntu's new Unity and Gnome Shell, tried Linux Mint, but wasnt "professional enough" for me.Tried openSUSE, but didn't like it. BackTrack5, Fedora (some old version), and so on, but still couldn't find the "Best One" for me.

I would be very happy, if you could help me! And please justificate your answer!

I'm waiting for your answers, and other suggestions are welcomed too, if well explained.

THANKS IN ADVANCE!!

Best regards,

Tom.

[tim_s]

The only way I have found the ideal distro was to try them.

[Karl L.]

It sounds like you described Ubuntu as your ideal distro without mentioning Ubuntu by name. Based on your list of criteria, a good option might be to install Ubuntu, install MATE (to get the GNOME 2 experience), then remove Unity.

That said, the answer to your question really depends on how comfortable you are with GNU/Linux (particularly terminal). Like tim_s said, the best way to decide which distro you like best is to try them. Different distros exist because different people have different preferences. There is no silver bullet.

[jaroli.tamas]

Well, first thanks for your answers.

The point is that i'm tired about Ubuntu, and wanna use something other. Btw I already tried MATE, but didnt liked :D

I use terminal very often, nowadays I even launch Web Browser from terminal by typing chromium-browser :D

And I know, the best way is experiencing, but I heard about much distros, and now I'm confused.

And about the appearance: my main intent is to remove the panels, and replace them with AWN docks. So thats what I mentioned as "ability to customize desktop".

EDIT:

You mentioned that I described Ubuntu, but I don't agree with this, and here are my justifications:

- Unity and Gnome Shell don't allow me to remove panels, but they have many options to tweak the desktop

- it isn't fast... it's getting slower and slower version by version...

- Less custiomization options about the notification/indicator area without 3rd party program. Also doesnt wanna integrate my skype properly, even though I already tried many tutorials.

-can use xfce4, but can't use Gnome2

-not really power saving. my laptop's accumulator can work for about 1,5 hours, while it can work for 2,5 hours by using Win 8

-boot is slow as hell. Win 8 boots for me in less than 10 sec, Ubuntu boots for about 30 sec (normal 5400rpm hdd)

+ in my last pharagraph, I said I don't wanna use Ubuntu anymore ^^

[Brandon H Supervisor]

the only viable option of the 3 you chose would be Debian, and that really doesn't update very often

though honestly Mint Linux with the Cinnamon desktop fits what you want the most (i know you said you tried mint, but had you tried it since they switched to cinnamon? i didn't used to like mint much either but the distro has really improved itself the past couple versions)

and if all else fails you could always do Arch Linux. that way you'd be able to set it up however you want (it's not as hard to set up as you'd think, the wiki does a great job of walking you through things)

[Brandon H Supervisor]

And about the appearance: my main intent is to remove the panels, and replace them with AWN docks. So thats what I mentioned as "ability to customize desktop".

for customizablitly you'll want to stick with either gnome or xfce. those are the two easiest to customize from my experience

[Max Norris]

Personally, the best bet is to fire up a virtual machine and go nuts. Find which distribution base you prefer (Ubuntu/Debian, Fedora, Arch, etc etc) then throw on a bunch of various desktop environments and fiddle with 'em. Doesn't even need to have DE out of the box, a lot of the distros have "core" installation options that drop you at a console after installing so you can install whatever later. Who cares if you installed a metric crapton of libraries (or even break it), it's a VM that's getting erased again anyway. Throw all the DE's at it and see which one suits your needs.. you're the best judge of what works best for you. That said, you mentioned you preferred XFCE, Xubuntu's got a nice out-of-the-box XFCE setup that looks and works nicely. I'm partial to KDE myself just for not holding back on options and such, lately not terribly thrilled where the other DE's have been going.. Gnome 3 and Unity especially have got off the deep end, XFCE just feels a bit stale to me, etc.

[jaroli.tamas]

the only viable option of the 3 you chose would be Debian, and that really doesn't update very often

though honestly Mint Linux with the Cinnamon desktop fits what you want the most (i know you said you tried mint, but had you tried it since they switched to cinnamon? i didn't used to like mint much either but the distro has really improved itself the past couple versions)

and if all else fails you could always do Arch Linux. that way you'd be able to set it up however you want (it's not as hard to set up as you'd think, the wiki does a great job of walking you through things)

Yes, I tried Linux Mint Cinnamon edition, but to be honest, when I used Linux Mint, I felt myself as a low-end-user :) But I'm a bit scared about using Arch, one I tried it, but then I was a little newbie, so when I had to use only CLI, I gave up fast :)

Personally, the best bet is to fire up a virtual machine and go nuts. Find which distribution base you prefer (Ubuntu/Debian, Fedora, Arch, etc etc) then throw on a bunch of various desktop environments and fiddle with 'em. Doesn't even need to have DE out of the box, a lot of the distros have "core" installation options that drop you at a console after installing so you can install whatever later. Who cares if you installed a metric crapton of libraries (or even break it), it's a VM that's getting erased again anyway. Throw all the DE's at it and see which one suits your needs.. you're the best judge of what works best for you. That said, you mentioned you preferred XFCE, Xubuntu's got a nice out-of-the-box XFCE setup that looks and works nicely.

Yes, I'm doing this, but I'm still confused, and I wanted to ask some experts on this forum :)

[Colin McGregor]

I've only ever used Gentoo with Cinnamon since I hate Unity so I say that. Its simple and fully customizable.

[jaroli.tamas]

As I know, on Gentoo, you can install programs by compiling them from source, which excludes the "easy install of programs" point.

(Sorry for my difficultness, I told it's not that simple like it seems :D )

[Brandon H Supervisor]

I've only ever used Gentoo with Cinnamon since I hate Unity so I say that. Its simple and fully customizable.

yeah no, i consider my self fairly experience with Linux and I have trouble installing Gentoo (in fact i haven't successfully installed it)

@OP give arch a try again, follow the beginners guide on the wiki (only thing i recommend doing differently from it is use a gparted disk to set up the partitions). the wiki will make the install to the point of having a gui a breeze

[jaroli.tamas]

Hm, maybe there is the time for a 2nd chance for Arch :D

(I wanna edit the topic starter post, but I can't find the Edit button :D just want to add Arch and Xubuntu to the options)

And about the VMs: I tried a few OS on VBox, but they are kindda different from using them natively (for example much less icons on the notification/indicator area, but I know, this is a very low point :D ), thats a thing which makes decision harder :D

[Growled Member]

I would try Fuduntu. I've been meaning to try it myself.

[jaroli.tamas]

Okay, after reading a lot about them and reading your suggestions, I would like to modify the list to Debian, Arch and Xubuntu.

What kind of DEs does Arch support?

[Brandon H Supervisor]

arch pretty much supports every desktop environment, that's one of the things that's so appealing about the distro

[Karl L.]

Well, first thanks for your answers.

The point is that i'm tired about Ubuntu, and wanna use something other. Btw I already tried MATE, but didnt liked :D

I use terminal very often, nowadays I even launch Web Browser from terminal by typing chromium-browser :D

And I know, the best way is experiencing, but I heard about much distros, and now I'm confused.

And about the appearance: my main intent is to remove the panels, and replace them with AWN docks. So thats what I mentioned as "ability to customize desktop".

EDIT:

You mentioned that I described Ubuntu, but I don't agree with this, and here are my justifications:

- Unity and Gnome Shell don't allow me to remove panels, but they have many options to tweak the desktop

- it isn't fast... it's getting slower and slower version by version...

- Less custiomization options about the notification/indicator area without 3rd party program. Also doesnt wanna integrate my skype properly, even though I already tried many tutorials.

-can use xfce4, but can't use Gnome2

-not really power saving. my laptop's accumulator can work for about 1,5 hours, while it can work for 2,5 hours by using Win 8

-boot is slow as hell. Win 8 boots for me in less than 10 sec, Ubuntu boots for about 30 sec (normal 5400rpm hdd)

+ in my last pharagraph, I said I don't wanna use Ubuntu anymore ^^

There are two things about your position I don't quite understand.

First, you are the first - and only - person I have ever heard claim that he prefers GNOME 2 to MATE! Considering that MATE is literally a fork of GNOME 2.32 whose express goal as a project is to maintain the GNOME 2 experience, I don't understand what you like about GNOME 2 that you dislike about MATE. My only guess is that you have only tried MATE on Linux Mint, and dislike the abomination of a menu that Linux Mint added to MATE or the Linux Mint default MATE configuration (which is similarly abysmal in my opinion). If that is your issue, try installing MATE from their repository on a clean install of Ubuntu or Debian. The experience has not changed from GNOME 2; MATE has merely added a few new features and improved some of the unerlying code.

Second, I think you're being unfairly biased against Ubuntu. It sounds like you are confusing the desktop environment with the operating system. While they are tightly coupled - to the point of being nigh inseparable - in Windows and OS X, that is not the case in Linux. Every component can be modified, updated, or removed individually. If you're an advanced user and would prefer to do an expert install of Ubuntu, that is certainly possible with the alternate install disc. Using that method, you can install only the essential packages and build your system from the ground up. (If you have the experience to perform that type of installation, I would normally recommend that you go upstream to Debian, but you would have a more difficult time getting the latest beta versions of WINE and Ubuntu One installed. It certainly can be done, but you would need to have a very good grasp on how the system works.) Even if you would prefer to install Ubuntu from the live disc and simply remove packages or disable startup services manually, that is also a possibility.

Finally, the Arch Wiki and Debian Wiki are both very good resources no matter which distribution you choose. I would highly recommend that you refer to your distribution's wiki, forums, and IRC channel for help (in that order), but you can often find excellent technical documentation that is somewhat distribution agnostic on both of the aforementioned wikis.

[KaoDome]

As an Arch user myself I'll try to address a couple of the points you're looking for so that you know what to expect.

- Ability to customize: here you get what the DM provides you, an Arch base install is not tied to any DM in particular (you don't even have to have an X server installed), so it depends on the DM you want to use. I'm pretty comfortable with Xfce, and I remember that after starting the first time I was even asked if I wanted a default panel configuration or if I'd like with an empty one.

- Good hardware support: I'd say you'd get the same as with other distros more or less, it depends on the kernel version you're running; see next point for more info.

- Ability to install the latest programs: if I recall correctly Arch developers and maintainers believe that if upstream considers something to be stable it is stable (and ends up in the repositories). What that means is that when a new version of a program is out a few days after (sometimes even the same day) you'll find it in the repos. That can be good or bad, as with Gnome 3 for example, but it wasn't just days it took to get to the repos, it took more due to the size of it and having to test it and all.

So the repos are pretty up to date, which for a developer is something quite desirable. There's also the AUR (user repo) where you can find recipes that allow you to build packages that are not maintained in the main repositories (e.g. say you want Cinnamon in Arch, you'd find it there).

- Fast and stable: well.. there are breakages as in all distros I suppose, but they don't happen often. And as long as you don't force a package update things tend to be stable and as fast as you want them to be (within reason). You also have the possibility of compiling the packages yourself should you want to some packages optimized or with different features.

- Good media support: it goes with the packages updates, since they're pretty up to date you're covered there.

- Mail/messaging and integration: this depends on the DM you're using but I bet you can get what you'd like. I don't use a mail application so I wouldn't really know.

- Good for programming: development packages are available and up to date, and should a serious bug be found in an specific package, say GCC it'd be patched without waiting for the next stable release. Note that a mayor change in the toolchain requires more testing and is not available in the repos right away (e.g. GCC 4.7 -> 4.8).

- Of your preferred DMs Gnome 2 is not available in the main repos since Gnome 3 was declared stabled. You could find MATE in the AUR if you were interested though.

- Working Wine: I don't know what you mean by that :D, but Wine is usually updated to the development releases (not the stable ones), so bugfixes and new features are available promptly.

- Google Chrome / Chromium: Chromium is in the official repositories, updated to match the versions of Chrome. If you'd prefer Chrome it's in the AUR too.

- Easy backup of / + sync + restore: Wouldn't know... never did that, but I'd be interested to know of means to do it. If you know of a way in a distribution changes are it's available in Arch or the AUR.

- Dropbox and Ubuntu One: they're both in the AUR.

Optional points...:

- Nice and helpful community: can't you tell? :D Nah, seriously though you have the forums and IRC where people is always keen to help. Plus the Wiki is really something to look at when having doubts as already mentioned.

- Updates often: done.

- Power saving: I guess it'd depend on what you install... wouldn't know.

- Compatible with phone / iPod: wouldn't know.

- Fast boot: in my case it's quite fast although it'd depend on your config too. Arch moved to using systemd a while ago if you're interested.

I'm not giving marks to the points, but I hope the info I wrote would help you. To install Arch you have either the official images or Archboot (I like this better, seems to have support for more systems and you get an ncurses install, anyway following the installation guide and the beginner's guide in the wiki you'd have no problem).

Also, even if you don't choose Arch you could find this page useful if you know your way around one distribution's package management and want to switch to another.

[tim_s]

Linux is all about the time you spend into it - most often people forget about how flexible Linux is and this flexibility can be time consuming to setup. Really anything is possible - I would pick the distros who have a mission statment you agree with.

It is hard to have it all without spending a little time or money.

I have gone through many distros before settling on Gentoo but outside of waiting for a GUI to compile I do not have many complaints. --- nothing is perfect.

[jaroli.tamas]

There are two things about your position I don't quite understand.

First, you are the first - and only - person I have ever heard claim that he prefers GNOME 2 to MATE! Considering that MATE is literally a fork of GNOME 2.32 whose express goal as a project is to maintain the GNOME 2 experience, I don't understand what you like about GNOME 2 that you dislike about MATE. My only guess is that you have only tried MATE on Linux Mint, and dislike the abomination of a menu that Linux Mint added to MATE or the Linux Mint default MATE configuration (which is similarly abysmal in my opinion). If that is your issue, try installing MATE from their repository on a clean install of Ubuntu or Debian. The experience has not changed from GNOME 2; MATE has merely added a few new features and improved some of the unerlying code.

Second, I think you're being unfairly biased against Ubuntu. It sounds like you are confusing the desktop environment with the operating system. While they are tightly coupled - to the point of being nigh inseparable - in Windows and OS X, that is not the case in Linux. Every component can be modified, updated, or removed individually. If you're an advanced user and would prefer to do an expert install of Ubuntu, that is certainly possible with the alternate install disc. Using that method, you can install only the essential packages and build your system from the ground up. (If you have the experience to perform that type of installation, I would normally recommend that you go upstream to Debian, but you would have a more difficult time getting the latest beta versions of WINE and Ubuntu One installed. It certainly can be done, but you would need to have a very good grasp on how the system works.) Even if you would prefer to install Ubuntu from the live disc and simply remove packages or disable startup services manually, that is also a possibility.

Finally, the Arch Wiki and Debian Wiki are both very good resources no matter which distribution you choose. I would highly recommend that you refer to your distribution's wiki, forums, and IRC channel for help (in that order), but you can often find excellent technical documentation that is somewhat distribution agnostic on both of the aforementioned wikis.

I have tried MATE on Ubuntu too, but it also had that ugly Menu, but you are right, I used it with the default config. I'm not confusing them, I'm just really bored the slowness and the new developements of Ubuntu, that's all. Of course I'm talking about Unity and GS. With XFCE4, it works like a dream, really fast. But I would like to get some experiences with another "professional" distros, like Arch, and others. And yeah, maybe I can say, I'm an advanced user, but not expert :D So doing an expert install may would be a little hard :D

About Debian, I don't like that it has "old" and "outdated" packages.

After reading your posts, I think, desktop environment "doesn't mention", if the OS supports xfce (or gnome or mate), I can easily config to my needs.

The good new is it started to brighten what distro should I chose. This Arch seems interesting, or maybe stay at Xubuntu.

By the way, what do you think about Frugalware?

As an Arch user myself I'll try to address a couple of the points you're looking for so that you know what to expect.

- Ability to customize: here you get what the DM provides you, an Arch base install is not tied to any DM in particular (you don't even have to have an X server installed), so it depends on the DM you want to use. I'm pretty comfortable with Xfce, and I remember that after starting the first time I was even asked if I wanted a default panel configuration or if I'd like with an empty one.

- Good hardware support: I'd say you'd get the same as with other distros more or less, it depends on the kernel version you're running; see next point for more info.

- Ability to install the latest programs: if I recall correctly Arch developers and maintainers believe that if upstream considers something to be stable it is stable (and ends up in the repositories). What that means is that when a new version of a program is out a few days after (sometimes even the same day) you'll find it in the repos. That can be good or bad, as with Gnome 3 for example, but it wasn't just days it took to get to the repos, it took more due to the size of it and having to test it and all.

So the repos are pretty up to date, which for a developer is something quite desirable. There's also the AUR (user repo) where you can find recipes that allow you to build packages that are not maintained in the main repositories (e.g. say you want Cinnamon in Arch, you'd find it there).

- Fast and stable: well.. there are breakages as in all distros I suppose, but they don't happen often. And as long as you don't force a package update things tend to be stable and as fast as you want them to be (within reason). You also have the possibility of compiling the packages yourself should you want to some packages optimized or with different features.

- Good media support: it goes with the packages updates, since they're pretty up to date you're covered there.

- Mail/messaging and integration: this depends on the DM you're using but I bet you can get what you'd like. I don't use a mail application so I wouldn't really know.

- Good for programming: development packages are available and up to date, and should a serious bug be found in an specific package, say GCC it'd be patched without waiting for the next stable release. Note that a mayor change in the toolchain requires more testing and is not available in the repos right away (e.g. GCC 4.7 -> 4.8).

- Of your preferred DMs Gnome 2 is not available in the main repos since Gnome 3 was declared stabled. You could find MATE in the AUR if you were interested though.

- Working Wine: I don't know what you mean by that :D, but Wine is usually updated to the development releases (not the stable ones), so bugfixes and new features are available promptly.

- Google Chrome / Chromium: Chromium is in the official repositories, updated to match the versions of Chrome. If you'd prefer Chrome it's in the AUR too.

- Easy backup of / + sync + restore: Wouldn't know... never did that, but I'd be interested to know of means to do it. If you know of a way in a distribution changes are it's available in Arch or the AUR.

- Dropbox and Ubuntu One: they're both in the AUR.

Optional points...:

- Nice and helpful community: can't you tell? :D Nah, seriously though you have the forums and IRC where people is always keen to help. Plus the Wiki is really something to look at when having doubts as already mentioned.

- Updates often: done.

- Power saving: I guess it'd depend on what you install... wouldn't know.

- Compatible with phone / iPod: wouldn't know.

- Fast boot: in my case it's quite fast although it'd depend on your config too. Arch moved to using systemd a while ago if you're interested.

I'm not giving marks to the points, but I hope the info I wrote would help you. To install Arch you have either the official images or Archboot (I like this better, seems to have support for more systems and you get an ncurses install, anyway following the installation guide and the beginner's guide in the wiki you'd have no problem).

Also, even if you don't choose Arch you could find this page useful if you know your way around one distribution's package management and want to switch to another.

Thank you, your post was very helpful, this kind of suggestions are what I'm waiting for ^^ I think, first I will try Arch in VBox, with xfce or MATE. The only fustrating thing is the pacman for me :D But I doubt it can be hard.

Linux is all about the time you spend into it - most often people forget about how flexible Linux is and this flexibility can be time consuming to setup. Really anything is possible - I would pick the distros who have a mission statment you agree with.

It is hard to have it all without spending a little time or money.

I have gone through many distros before settling on Gentoo but outside of waiting for a GUI to compile I do not have many complaints. --- nothing is perfect.

Yes, I know its about the time I spend into in. But to be honest, I never did any serious changes, and configs in Linux yet. So this could be a new kind of challange for me. I just wanted to know about the distros stability, but maybe I made my question misunderstandable :D

[Max Norris]

About Debian, I don't like that it has "old" and "outdated" packages.

Switch out of the stable branch, hop over to testing or Sid.

The only fustrating thing is the pacman for me :D But I doubt it can be hard.

Not hard, just different. It's actually quite good once you wrap your head around how it works. Even better when you throw yaourt into the mix.

[Brandon H Supervisor]

Not hard, just different. It's actually quite good once you wrap your head around how it works. Even better when you throw yaourt into the mix.

was just about to say the same thing

plus once you get your DE up and running you can install a front end if you choose https://wiki.archlin...n_GUI_Frontends

(btw just so OP isn't confused, yaourt is an extension of pacman that you can install from AUR that allows future easier installation of AUR packages along with installation of normal pacman packages https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Yaourt)

[Haggis Veteran]

I tried arch again last night on a VM

followed the wiki through installed system, file system etc etc

got to the ok thats it done now reboot, i rebooted and now my network does not work lol

still working on it though

[jaroli.tamas]

I will give a chance to Arch :) What DE do you suggest for it? :)

@Haggis: please let us know if you managed to make the network work! :D

[f0rk_b0mb]

I will give a chance to Arch :) What DE do you suggest for it? :)

Give Kubuntu a try. It has everything you want--easy to install, easy to get new packages from the software center, easy to get new themes and install them, easy to get proprietary drivers. For me personally, it's the best distro. You may also want to refer to this tweak guide. Are you going to be dual booting?

Edit: Oh and if you have issues with your boot screen, refer to this: http://jechem.blogspot.com/2011/04/fix-plymouth-splash-screen-in-ubuntu-on.html

Just change the commands gksu and gedit to sudo and kate. :)

[jaroli.tamas]

@up Thanks, but I already tried, and had issues with my laptop's function keys. Also I don't like KDE ^^

Atm I have dual boot, but I wanna delete Windows, and use only Linux.