Teachers who stomped American flag, Jesus, are gone

[123456789A]

They paid the inevitable price for not bowing to the Christian Taliban / uber patriot crowd. I fully agree with the teachers, it was an interesting lesson that raised an interesting point about the way people obsessively worship things like flags.

Wait, I thought you wanted religion out of public schools. Now when they step on Jesus and get in trouble for it, you're upset?

[Noir Angel]

I do want religion out of public schools. The original intention of the lesson was not to mock religion, it was to provide a lesson about the way we interact socially with each other and the social interactions that prevent us from doing certain things. Something a lot of fools seem to be pretty eager to be forgetting because they're blinded with rage that due deference wasn't paid to their favourite real estate and books.

[Growled Member]

I am not American but shouldn't the ones who stomped the American flag be arrested?

Freedom of speech and all that you know.

[Hum]

We shouldn't pay any attention to flag abusers -- that encourages them.

[chconline Veteran]

If Christianity is about love, why did God murder so many people in the bible? Why were the crusades carried out and why am I condemned to an eternity of pain for not living my life by a code of ancient and mostly outdated rules?

Lol, I'll answer that for you.

Why did God 'murder' so many people in the Bible? Can you give me a specific incidence where God murdered people? How about the historical facts that all the nations that God executed judgment on did detestable things like using temple prostitutes, burned babies at sacrifices to their regional gods, and murdered each other without any justice on the murderers? (This is not specifically recorded in the Bible. It doesn't record what other nations did. But you can research this in secular history of the religious practices of 'foreign' nations at the time -- yeah, bet you won't like that.) Now you come to me that if God was real, why would he let these things happened? How about the fact that God established laws and ordinances in the OT for the Israel that provided significant rights ahead of its times? How about nowadays when people gets "murdered" by the state and locked up in prison for life for their crimes? But you call that justice? Oh, but if God executes justice, then it's murdering? But if it violates against some arbitrary law set by man in some country, then it's OK? Where does our laws come from? What makes the laws reasonable? Where do morals come from? Are there moral absolutes? If I believe eating each other is OK and you don't, and will you call be backwards, or just "another culture with different beliefs"?

No one is condemned to hell for what you have claim as archaic rules. There are moral absolutes that do not change over time. There are timeless principles to the good of humanity. However, the Bible says people are condemned not because they have not followed any rules. In Romans 6:23, it says, "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.". Romans 3:23 says, "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Ephesians 2:8-9 also says, "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith?and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God? not by works, so that no one can boast." Clearly, the Bible talks about justification by faith -- in the OT and the NT -- and not for following any rules as you have suggested.

And for Christianity is about love, why would God condemn people to hell? Because God is just and people are justified by the faith of Jesus. 1 Timothy 2:3-4 says, "This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth." As such, in John 3:16 which everyone knows, "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

Obviously, you are free not to believe in Jesus or God, and you can also claim that he does not exist or whatever. This is your choice. That is fine. If hell doesn't exist, then so be it -- don't complain about Christians saying people will go to hell if you don't believe. Just say hell doesn't exist, I don't want to believe, etc, and get on with life. I don't understand why people are so worked up about issues like this. If a Mormon comes up and tells me with the best of their intentions that I will end up in Telestial Heaven rather than Celestial Heaven for not believing in Mormonism, I'll be like, wow, cool, take me there, lol. No hard feelings.

However, if you think hell exists the way Christians describe it, then the Bible describes God's salvation plan with the free gift through the blood of Jesus, and people are justified by their faith (with works as a result of their faith), then once again, I don't see a reason for complaining.

[articuno1au]

MANY men and women have lost their lives for that flag. I lost so much of my small bowel for that Flag that I'm barely hanging on to life myself. Do I love America? Yes emphatically.

I don't think a single person lost their life for the flag.

Soldiers lose their lives for their people, their society and their values, but never for a piece of cloth.

The flag might represent these things for some people, but it's not for the flag >.>

Lol, I'll answer that for you.

Why did God 'murder' so many people in the Bible? Can you give me a specific incidence where God murdered people? How about the historical facts that all the nations that God executed judgment on did detestable things like using temple prostitutes, burned babies at sacrifices to their regional gods, and murdered each other without any justice on the murderers? (This is not specifically recorded in the Bible. It doesn't record what other nations did. But you can research this in secular history of the religious practices of 'foreign' nations at the time -- yeah, bet you won't like that.) Now you come to me that if God was real, why would he let these things happened? How about the fact that God established laws and ordinances in the OT for the Israel that provided significant rights ahead of its times? How about nowadays when people gets "murdered" by the state and locked up in prison for life for their crimes? But you call that justice? Oh, but if God executes justice, then it's murdering? But if it violates against some arbitrary law set by man in some country, then it's OK? Where does our laws come from? What makes the laws reasonable? Where do morals come from? Are there moral absolutes? If I believe eating each other is OK and you don't, and will you call be backwards, or just "another culture with different beliefs"?

No one is condemned to hell for what you have claim as archaic rules. There are moral absolutes that do not change over time. There are timeless principles to the good of humanity. However, the Bible says people are condemned not because they have not followed any rules. In Romans 6:23, it says, "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.". Romans 3:23 says, "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Ephesians 2:8-9 also says, "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith?and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God? not by works, so that no one can boast." Clearly, the Bible talks about justification by faith -- in the OT and the NT -- and not for following any rules as you have suggested.

And for Christianity is about love, why would God condemn people to hell? Because God is just and people are justified by the faith of Jesus. 1 Timothy 2:3-4 says, "This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth." As such, in John 3:16 which everyone knows, "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

Obviously, you are free not to believe in Jesus or God, and you can also claim that he does not exist or whatever. This is your choice. That is fine. If hell doesn't exist, then so be it -- don't complain about Christians saying people will go to hell if you don't believe. Just say hell doesn't exist, I don't want to believe, etc, and get on with life. I don't understand why people are so worked up about issues like this. If a Mormon comes up and tells me with the best of their intentions that I will end up in Telestial Heaven rather than Celestial Heaven for not believing in Mormonism, I'll be like, wow, cool, take me there, lol. No hard feelings.

However, if you think hell exists the way Christians describe it, then the Bible describes God's salvation plan with the free gift through the blood of Jesus, and people are justified by their faith (with works as a result of their faith), then once again, I don't see a reason for complaining.

You said facts (historical facts to boot) when talking about the contents of the bible.. Yep..

[chrisj1968]

No, they lost their lives for their country and countrymen/women, not a piece of nylon.

The red on the flag represents the blood shed as an example. so yes it is

disrespecting those who died for this nation

[Stoffel]

The red on the flag represents the blood shed as an example. so yes it is

disrespecting those who died for this nation.

It's a piece of cloth!!!!!

It only represents whatever you want it to represent.

[Growled Member]

We shouldn't pay any attention to flag abusers -- that encourages them.

Exactly. Pay someone no attention and a lot of time they go away.

[chconline Veteran]

You said facts (historical facts to boot) when talking about the contents of the bible.. Yep..

This statement carries no academic merit in discussion other than just a baseless, irrational, and unwarranted attack. I think it's really awesome when people like to spend some time poking holes for whatever reason for the purpose of learning. I have spent time debating Christians from the perspective of an atheist, Mormon, Muslim, etc (Again, for academic purposes only). When I am debating as an atheist, throughout my research it's statements like these that composes of at least 50% of the argument. The rest of the academic factors is moot point at best -- and I have spent a significant of time going through a lot of material in the past (From some of the best sources I can find), which I have written papers on for my own learning.

Of course, outside of purely academic purposes, despite my research on many major world religions, I don't debate anyone just for the sake of. I don't mind explaining to people about different faiths, and why I hold to beliefs of what worldview is right and what is wrong -- but once people start trashing on everything, people go nuts for no apparent reason. As always on Neowin, I think I've contributed enough to this thread, since it's just going to end up in another religious debate, which is quite meaningless in my opinion.

ONE NOTE: I didn't tiptoe around the topic of crusades in my original post. It's off topic, so that'll be a completely different discussion. I think the issue with crusades is most people don't understand much about historical facts other than "Oh my goodness those bloodthirsty Christians killed the Muslims for the lulz for God and country so religion = bad, Christ = not above love, Christians can all go hell!!!111" which is a complete negligence of proper history. If anyone wants to know more, I would be happy to talk about it via PM or point you to the right sources or whatever.

At the end of the day, I hold no degree in theology, just an Electrical Engineer here :p

[articuno1au]

The document of which you refer has been edited multiple times. The book is not as it is believed "it was handed down".

Fallacies ought be challenged. There was no attack to be had there, I merely observed ironically the fallacy of your statement.

What people choose to believe is their own business. Purporting your beliefs to be fact at the expense of evidence and reason is a dangerous thing.

Blind belief is wrong. Faith is not blind, and the bible does not seem to suggest it ought be..

So if someone is going to choose to take the bible literally, why do they always overlook this >.>

[Richteralan]

I'm glad the teachers are gone.

If you are a good teacher, to teach somewhere else than USA.

What USA needs are mere puppets who just read what's on the books, who don't even know the word inspiration.

[chconline Veteran]

The document of which you refer has been edited multiple times. The book is not as it is believed "it was handed down".

Fallacies ought be challenged. There was no attack to be had there, I merely observed ironically the fallacy of your statement.

What people choose to believe is their own business. Purporting your beliefs to be fact at the expense of evidence and reason is a dangerous thing.

Blind belief is wrong. Faith is not blind, and the bible does not seem to suggest it ought be..

So if someone is going to choose to take the bible literally, why do they always overlook this >.>

Well I said I'll stay out of this thread but...

I'm glad you're interested in entering in a proper discussion. You're absolutely right on one thing. The Bible does not suggest anything about blind faith. Unfortunately, there are many people with the best intent that they come in with blind faith and have no idea what they believe in. In Acts 17:11, it says, "Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true." It is important to examine each and every part of the scripture to see if it was true. It is also important to have faith, but only reasonable faith with reasonable grounds. I think this is no different than anything else; everyone must carry a degree of faith in something to live whether you are religious or not.

One thing I would like to address is there are absolutely truths. Most people don't like people forcing their beliefs on them, and I think this is fair. On the other hand, if something is held to be true, I don't see a reason why it must not be said accordingly.

But to be back on the first thing, there is no fallacy in my statement. To hold to the fact that the Bible has no historical merit, and has been "edited multiple times" by people, has no merit. Again, this is flawed. You are probably thinking about the Book of Mormon, which, without undeniable evidence, has been edited multiple times by people. The Bible, however, has not.

Based on the thousands of manuscripts that are known to exist, there is no question that the Bible has been transmitted with remarkable accuracy -- and translated with remarkable accuracy -- throughout the centuries. Some 'scholars' argue that the Bible has been edited to favor certain things, but archaeological evidence suggests otherwise. The incredible transmission accuracy of the Bible other than copyist errors (Mainly limited to numerical statistics like 4 vs 40, which has no real significance) has been proven over and over again that many atheists keep a blind eye to, and ignore the overwhelming evidence and just say the Bible is a load of trash. Those who claim it has been edited and not been transmitted without remarkable accuracy about as much credibility as someone who suggests that the moon does not exist, the earth is flat, and the sun revolves around earth (Yes, the Catholic church was wrong, but in my opinion, they're wrong on quite a number of things too. The Protestant church never held onto that belief, so let's make it clear here). Obviously, I am not talking about the OT Apocrypha that the Catholic church accept as canon, which is a completely different story.

So no, based on the evidence I have found, I cannot accept your argument saying my basis of discussion is incorrect.

The problem nowadays is many Christians and non-Christians alike enjoy talking about their own thing and think they know about certain subjects when they have no idea what they are talking about. There are many great resources online and offline that anyone can easily do their research on.

Anyways, we're way off topic here, I'll promise this will be my last post in this thread. :p

[MDboyz]

Really, why don't you try to go to any middle east countries or any communist countries and step or burn their flags? You will see the truth. Or even better post pix of you burning your country flag.

I'll never understand why Americans are so attached to religion (ever heard of separation of church and state?) and their flag...

[Sandor]

And you don't see it as ironic that in "the land of the free" people are being punished for refusing to play the obsessive patriot? It has nothing to do with respect, and everything to do with the post 9-11 atmosphere in which people who aren't obsessively patriotic are treated with suspicion.

It's just a damn flag it's not going to harm anyone.

Implying there is such a thing as a "land of the free"

When someone stomped on the maple leaf.

[ChopSuey]

We shouldn't pay any attention to flag abusers -- that encourages them.

Haha... Yet you are the one who started this thread. ;)

[compl3x]

Why aren't these religion-related topics posted in the official religion topic?

Not to be presumptuous, but:

New rule: if your topic is remotely related to religion, put it here?

[Yogurtmaster]

If Christianity is about love, why did God murder so many people in the bible? Why were the crusades carried out and why am I condemned to an eternity of pain for not living my life by a code of ancient and mostly outdated rules?

If there is love in the world then why is there war? Crusades were not from God, that is a human thing. Those rules are not outdated. Do not steal, do not commit adultery, do not kill, etc... are good rules to follow.

I would suggest you read the Bible and study it and you will begin to understand.

[Yogurtmaster]

I've got no problem with paying respect to PEOPLE, what I refuse to respect is deluded beliefs that have no grounding reality, and what I also refuse to respect is mindless adherence to the value of real estate.

This is non sense. You respect nobody. I have seen posts from you. Deluded beliefs that have no grounding in reality, can you prove it?

I have never seen any real proof that this is true.

The flag of the USA might be just cloth, but it stands for the people who died for this country and it stands for a republic which should be respected for all of the people who died defending freedom.

The fact that you can't understand that is well sad for you. It also shows how simple minded and selfish you are. Facts are facts dude and you just keep showing how simple minded and ignorant and people don't respect that.

Also, the Taliban comparision is pretty accurate. The right wing Christian movement in America wants to turn the US into a religious theocracy and force others to obey Christian laws even if they are not Christians. Most of the homophobia in your country is religious in origin, as are the ridiculous repeat attempts by far right politicians to try to legislate on what women do with their vaginas. They also have a love for demanding respect without wanting to respect the beliefs of anyone else. Sound a bit like the followers of another religion we love to hate, huh?!?!. Besides, given the insanely bigoted things I've seen you say about Atheists I don't really think you're in a position to give anybody a lecture about respect and tolerance. In fact your attitude is evidence of the point I am trying to make.

Christian laws? Are you insane? What Christian laws? Demanding respect? Like you keep showing that you want to demand respect. Respect has to be earned and you haven't earn any.

Most of the stuff above is simply lies and exaggerations. Why should anyone on this forum respect lies and exaggerations? It goes both ways dude.

You are an anti-religious bigot trying to find dirt and use lies, exaggerations and doubt to spread your garbage. That should be respected now?

Yeah, and please spare me from your lies about tolerance. It's all lies. You choose to tolerate what you want to tolerate.

Sorry, I have to go. My B.S. meter is off the chart.

[FloatingFatMan]

This is non sense. You respect nobody. I have seen posts from you. Deluded beliefs that have no grounding in reality, can you prove it?

I have never seen any real proof that this is true.

Those making the claims are the ones that must provide proof. No theist has ever managed to do so.

Christian laws? Are you insane? What Christian laws? Demanding respect? Like you keep showing that you want to demand respect. Respect has to be earned and you haven't earn any.

Then why do Christians demand respect when they have earned none? Respect is a 2 way street.

You are an anti-religious bigot trying to find dirt and use lies, exaggerations and doubt to spread your garbage. That should be respected now?

And you are a religious bigot. Proven so again and again in these fora.

Yeah, and please spare me from your lies about tolerance. It's all lies. You choose to tolerate what you want to tolerate.

Sorry, I have to go. My B.S. meter is off the chart.

Hypocrisy at it's best (or worst). You've never shown ANY tolerance for anyone who doesn't bow their head to your particular sky friend.

[trag3dy]

Why aren't these religion-related topics posted in the official religion topic?

Not to be presumptuous, but:

New rule: if your topic is remotely related to religion, put it here?

Well the thread didn't start off as being about religion.. didn't last long though.

[compl3x]

Well the thread didn't start off as being about religion.. didn't last long though.

If it has Jesus in the title, it should probably be in the religious section.

Mods will lock topics in the jokes sections for not having tags, but not moderate topics like this? Seems kind of haphazard to me.

[Yogurtmaster]

Those making the claims are the ones that must provide proof. No theist has ever managed to do so.

Then why do Christians demand respect when they have earned none? Respect is a 2 way street.

Well, if someone is going to tell me that what I believe is crap and not respect my belief, they have no make it known.

You can't criticize without a reason.

I have already given my proof, it doesn't matter if that proof is not accepted in a way that you want. That is your problem.

And you are a religious bigot. Proven so again and again in these fora.

Hypocrisy at it's best (or worst). You've never shown ANY tolerance for anyone who doesn't bow their head to your particular sky friend.

Look, I don't mind non-militant Atheists. I have some in my wife's family. However, they respect me and I respect them and we don't mention religion or politics.

When you just rant off of a forum that is for religious posts and you constantly put everything down due to FUD, you get what you get.

There should be two threads. One which is pro religion and one that is anti-religious.

So, it's not because you are an Atheist that I say things, it's because you are militant and act like jerks.

I bet if there was a study, you will find out that militant Atheists are actually socially inept.

[He's Dead Jim]

Gee, I am thinking about what the flag represents, OK, its the countrys trademark. it represents the contract between the people and the state to act as one for their mutual benefit. So, perhaps in this light the teachers action was as questionable as the questions he was trying to raise.

Regarding the authenticity and accuracy of the bible, jesus, nativity, look at this picture of King Roger of Sicily being "crowned" by christ.

Too many egotists have had a hand in editing that book.

[FloatingFatMan]

Well, if someone is going to tell me that what I believe is crap and not respect my belief, they have no make it known.

You can't criticize without a reason.

I have already given my proof, it doesn't matter if that proof is not accepted in a way that you want. That is your problem.

The bible is not proof, stories are not proof. Proof requires verifiable and repeatable evidence; you have none.

Look, I don't mind non-militant Atheists. I have some in my wife's family. However, they respect me and I respect them and we don't mention religion or politics.

When you just rant off of a forum that is for religious posts and you constantly put everything down due to FUD, you get what you get.

There should be two threads. One which is pro religion and one that is anti-religious.

So, it's not because you are an Atheist that I say things, it's because you are militant and act like jerks.

I bet if there was a study, you will find out that militant Atheists are actually socially inept.

And there you go with your casual insults again, when no one has insulted you, at all. Love thy neighbour.. Riiiiiight. :rolleyes:

If you want to know why some "militant atheists" act like jerks, you need look no further at how theists treat them. Try starting with a mirror.