web Opera sues designer for leaking trade secrets

[Phouchg]

Norwegian browser maker Opera Software has filed suit against Trond Werner Hansen, one of its former developers, alleging that Hansen took trade secrets with him when he went to work with Opera rival Mozilla.

[..] Hansen worked at Opera from 1999 through 2006. There he led design and UI development, first for the Windows version of the Opera browser, then for the cross-platform Desktop version. He later returned as an independent consultant from 2009 to 2010, at Opera's request.

Then in 2012, Hansen began to work with the Mozilla Foundation, makers of the open source Firefox browser ? and that's when things got dicey.

According to Opera, Hansen's contributions to Mozilla projects included Opera trade secrets, and the company is now suing Hansen for 20m Norwegian kroner ($3.4m/?2.2) in damages as a result.

...

Hansen discusses "Junior", Mozilla's experimental browser for the iPad, which features a stripped-down UI that lacks many of the traditional UI controls found in browsers for desktop platforms. Superficially, at least, Junior appears to incorporate many ideas that Hansen advocated while at Opera, where for many years he maintained that the Opera browser's UI was too heavy and needed to be simplified. But Hansen argues that these are simply his own ideas about UI design and usability, and not any kind of intellectual property to which Opera could lay claim.

Hansen told the paper that he first learned of Opera's lawsuit in the summer of 2012, when he was living in New York City and pursuing a music career. Now those plans have been put on hold, he says, and he has been forced to return to Norway, where he lives with friends and family and has been selling off assets to support himself.

[..] a hearing on the matter is scheduled for late August 2013.

Source (El Reg)

Commentary:

Seriously? What trade secrets, crackpots? Neither there are any secrets nor Opera has anything special to trade, given that their market share is a 1% flatline at best and a rounding error at worst, and for a good reason. Looks like the biggest crybabies of Microsoft Browser Ballot kaboodle need some new office chairs or whatever is that Google won't gladly pay for. I somehow doubt that even if Hansen stole their whole source code and handed over to Mitchell Baker in person, he doesn't have those asked millions anyway, so it's all a lost cause to begin with. Norway must be the home of the original, non-proverbial trolls for a reason...

Edited May 1, 2013 by Marshall

[+DonC Subscriber²]

The opera that is Opera.

[Doli]

Source (El Reg)

Commentary:

Seriously? What trade secrets, crackpots? Neither there are any secrets nor Opera has anything special to trade...

Special to...trade? :huh: Do you know what a trade secret is?

[spacer]

I'm not really sure how Opera has a case here. They need to prove that code used in Firefox is, line for line, the exact same as code in Opera AND that it was a result of this guy working for Mozilla. It just sounds like they're complaining that their competition has a product that offers similar UI features, but implemented in a better fashion.

[Tom]

If Opera sues you, you've got problems. They're one of the nicest companies around.

[Phouchg]

Opera is 100% financed by their own chief competitor (Google), they are in market for longer than any of them (except Microsoft), but have failed to gain any meaningful market share. There are no tricks up their sleeve or anything that can give them advantage (trade secrets - awesome ideas that nobody else could ever think of), never have been, never will, especially now that they have switched to putting yet another skin around Webkit anyway. They are desperate to keep their offices afloat and resort to petty disputes that will not bear fruit.

As for mobile market - there's two big ones for their respective platforms - Android stock (and its "skins") and Safari. Given the gimped functionality of mobile devices in general, they do their job perfectly and enjoy full backing of platform providers. That's why even Mozilla can't get into it, with their experience and big promises.

As for interface disputes they are claiming there - other lawsuits, like those of Apple vs Samsung, involving patents and prior art, seem to have *so much success* and are a surefire way of winning hearts of general public, yes? No, it most definitely is not.

As for my improper use of terms and nomenclature - I beg your pardon for my broken English. my misplaced, uncultivated irony, my bad temper and all too often uncontrolled outright anger.

[Azies]

Oh geez, Firefox and Opera look almost identical, who copied who here, or is Opera based off of Firefox now?

[PreKe]

I'm not really sure how Opera has a case here. They need to prove that code used in Firefox is, line for line, the exact same as code in Opera AND that it was a result of this guy working for Mozilla. It just sounds like they're complaining that their competition has a product that offers similar UI features, but implemented in a better fashion.

I don't think this is about code. It's about technology presented in a video from Mozilla a while back. In fact, the guy who was sued even admits that he took stuff he made while on Opera's payroll to Mozilla.

So basically: Guy gets hired as a contractor. He gets paid to make some cool features. He then takes those features which he was paid for at Opera to a competitor, obviously breaching his contract with Opera and passing on trade secrets to the competitor.

Opera seems to be complaining that their competition got their hands on top secret stuff.

[PreKe]

There are no tricks up their sleeve or anything that can give them advantage (trade secrets - awesome ideas that nobody else could ever think of), never have been, never will, especially now that they have switched to putting yet another skin around Webkit anyway. They are desperate to keep their offices afloat and resort to petty disputes that will not bear fruit.

I'm not sure why you think Opera is desperately trying to stay afloat. For a couple of years now they've had record profits and revenues every single quarter. They are making plenty of money, and they are growing their revenue by something like 30-40% a year. Opera is doing very well indeed financially.

What makes you think they will be just a skin around Webkit? Apparently they're making a new UI from scratch, which is nothing like creating just a skin.

And why are you dismissing the first mover advantage? If there's an awesome feature and Opera is first to market, they will obviously benefit from that.

As for interface disputes they are claiming there - other lawsuits, like those of Apple vs Samsung, involving patents and prior art, seem to have *so much success* and are a surefire way of winning hearts of general public, yes? No, it most definitely is not.

But this isn't Opera suing Mozilla. This is Opera suing a contractor who allegedly stole Opera's trade secrets and sold them to Mozilla. Do you think it's OK for someone to get access to confidential information and then sell it to the highest bidder?

[+Warwagon MVC]

Neobrowser FTW!

[Athernar]

Opera trying to stifle competition and the open web yet again, as if selling out the open web in favour of making cheap Webkit frontends wasn't bad enough.

[Growled Member]

Superficially, at least, Junior appears to incorporate many ideas that Hansen advocated while at Opera, where for many years he maintained that the Opera browser's UI was too heavy and needed to be simplified.

So basically he went to a competitor and used the ideas that Opera never would.

[HawkMan]

No, Opera is pretty small scale by our standards.

I'm just pointing out that correcting everything you thought you knew would pretty much require e to rewrite the wikipedia to cover it. I use Opera but couldn't care much less about the company.

while it's a small company desktop browser share wise, they are a fairly big company, they make a lot of money and are growing. and have a lot of very good contracts for their browser and other products of theirs. So don't complain to me because I pointed out your little rant of a company/browser you don't like didn't contain a single fact.

[Noir Angel]

This just highlights how stupid modern I.P laws are getting. Companies shouldn't be allowed to have patents and I.P protection on things that aren't even used in their products

[HawkMan]

This just highlights how stupid modern I.P laws are getting. Companies shouldn't be allowed to have patents and I.P protection on things that aren't even used in their products

So it's stupid that a company claims ownership of something someone spent their time and money creating. Maybe if he wanted to keep ownerships of these things, he should first have checked what his job at opera actually was and what they wanted him to make for them, and not spend their time to create "his" new UX ideas.

While patent laws may need an adjustment, dropping IP and patent laws is patently stupid. while patent laws as they are today, may hinder development, dropping them completely would hinder them just as much, since no one would ever go to a backer that can afford to develop their ideas to have them developed, as the company would just turn them away and develop the idea without him afterwards.

and heck nothing says Opera isn't or isn't going to use these IP, just that at the time when he presented them it wasn't something they where doing at the time. The lawsuit rather indicates this is something they have or are implementing in mini/mobile.

[PreKe]

Opera trying to stifle competition and the open web yet again, as if selling out the open web in favour of making cheap Webkit frontends wasn't bad enough.

Ok, so protecting your trade secrets from being stolen by your competitors stifles competition? Interesting claim. Care to explain how? Do you think stealing something someone spend time and money to create is justifiable, and that going after someone who does that isn't?

Also, how does suing someone who stole trade secrets and sold them to a competitor stifle the open web exactly?

What do you mean by "cheap Webkit frontends"? Is Safari a cheap Webkit frontend? Is Chrome a cheap Webkit frontend?

So basically he went to a competitor and used the ideas that Opera never would.

How do you know they weren't going to use them? Because some guy with a grudge made that claim?

And more importantly, what does it matter if they were going to use them or not? They were Opera's ideas, paid for with Opera's money. The ideas are theirs to do with as they please.

Stealing a company's trade secrets and selling them to another company is unacceptable no matter how you look at it.

[Athernar]

Ok, so protecting your trade secrets from being stolen by your competitors stifles competition? Interesting claim. Care to explain how? Do you think stealing something someone spend time and money to create is justifiable, and that going after someone who does that isn't?

And what trade secrets were stolen? As the article says Opera were more interested in keeping their existing bloated UIs so his advocacy was ignored, he went elsewhere and they listened. Advocating minimalism is not trade secrets, nor are someone's personal tastes in regards to UI design.

Also, how does suing someone who stole trade secrets and sold them to a competitor stifle the open web exactly?

It's obviously an attempt at creating a monopoly position by denying free access to basic concepts. Opera are legal trolls, where they fail to innovate they litigate.

What do you mean by "cheap Webkit frontends"? Is Safari a cheap Webkit frontend? Is Chrome a cheap Webkit frontend?

Yep.

Now a question for you PreKe, who is your current employer? Because strangely enough, you only ever seem to appear when Opera is mentioned. Anything to disclose? My shill senses are tingling.

[PreKe]

And what trade secrets were stolen? As the article says Opera were more interested in keeping their existing bloated UIs so his advocacy was ignored, he went elsewhere and they listened. Advocating minimalism is not trade secrets, nor are someone's personal tastes in regards to UI design.

Who said it had anything to do with minimalism? This was about one or more features in a Mozilla video where this very same guy was presenting stuff as Mozilla innovations when they had in fact been made at Opera.

It's obviously an attempt at creating a monopoly position by denying free access to basic concepts. Opera are legal trolls, where they fail to innovate they litigate.

What basic concepts are they denying anyone free access to, specifically?

How is Opera a legal troll if this is the only time they've sued anyone for stealing trade secrets? Also, do you think stealing trade secrets is OK?

[0sit0]

Neobrowser FTW!

OMG I remember using this once years ago lol.

[Athernar]

Who said it had anything to do with minimalism?

Oh I don't know, the original article? Did you even bother to read it?

This was about one or more features in a Mozilla video where this very same guy was presenting stuff as Mozilla innovations when they had in fact been made at Opera.

And what features are these pray tell? What proof do you have these features, if they exist - belong to Opera?

What basic concepts are they denying anyone free access to, specifically?

Until such time as it's actually established that any features were stolen and those features are the property of Opera, rather than vague references to some video. It sounds very much like Opera are trying to lay claim to the very concept of minimalism itself.

How is Opera a legal troll if this is the only time they've sued anyone for stealing trade secrets? Also, do you think stealing trade secrets is OK?

Opera have always resorted to legal action to try and get their way when the quality (Or lack of) of their products has failed to. This is well known.

Now again, who is your employer PreKe? Do you work for Opera?

[PreKe]

Oh I don't know, the original article? Did you even bother to read it?

Or how about what the guy himself writes on his blog?

"in June 2012, a video is made public which shows me presenting a touch based browser prototype called Junior. This prototype has nothing to do with the lawsuit now filed by Opera"

Oops. Egg on face.

And what features are these pray tell? What proof do you have these features, if they exist - belong to Opera?

If they were made for Opera, they belong to Opera. If someone pays you to create something for them, it belongs to them. If this hadn't been the case, then anyone could just walk away with everything they ever did while working for a company.

Until such time as it's actually established that any features were stolen and those features are the property of Opera, rather than vague references to some video. It sounds very much like Opera are trying to lay claim to the very concept of minimalism itself.

The guy who was sued admits to working on some features while at Opera, and he brought them with him to Mozilla. He does not dispute this even on his own blog. What he disputes is that Opera has the right to features that they paid him for helping out with.

Opera have always resorted to legal action to try and get their way when the quality (Or lack of) of their products has failed to. This is well known.

Really? Could you mention a few examples of this?

Now again, who is your employer PreKe? Do you work for Opera?

No. Shouldn't you be focusing on trying to pick up the pieces of your destroyed arguments instead of trying to constantly attack me with insults and accusations?

[Athernar]

Or how about what the guy himself writes in his blog?

"in June 2012, a video is made public which shows me presenting a touch based browser prototype called Junior. This prototype has nothing to do with the lawsuit now filed by Opera"

This was about one or more features in a Mozilla video where this very same guy was presenting stuff as Mozilla innovations when they had in fact been made at Opera.

Oops. Egg on face.

If they were made for Opera, they belong to Opera. If someone pays you to create something for them, it belongs to them. If this hadn't been the case, then anyone could just walk away with everything they ever did while working for a company.

And yet you still don't have a single shred of proof. Oops. Egg on face.

The guy who was sued admits to working on some features while at Opera, and he brought them with him to Mozilla. He does not dispute this even on his own blog. What he disputes is that Opera has the right to features that they paid him for helping out with.

That's some nice malicious word twisting you have there, he said no such thing.

Really? Could you mention a few examples of this?

I could, but as you yourself aren't really interested in providing any proof for your points, neither shall I.

No. Shouldn't you be focusing on trying to pick up the pieces of your destroyed arguments instead of trying to constantly attack me with insults and accusations?

No, I'd much rather show you up for being the shill that you are. You clearly have some connection to Opera.

[PreKe]

Oops. Egg on face.

What are you talking about? You claimed this was about minimalism, but his blog says it was not about the minimalist browser but about at least one specific feature.

And yet you still don't have a single shred of proof. Oops. Egg on face.

Proof of what? That he got paid for doing something for Opera is not disputed. Nor is it disputed that when you get paid to do work, that work belongs to whoever paid you.

What exactly are you disputing here?

That's some nice malicious word twisting you have there, he said no such thing.

Yes he has:

"I inform the new CEO at the time, Lars Boilesen, that I will most likely pursue to contribute to an open source project like the Mozilla Firefox browser instead, since I think many of my original GB ideas and the direction I wanted to take the browser still has value, and I would like to see the ideas put into code."

In other words, he was talking about various ideas while Opera was paying him for coming up with ideas, but now he wanted to see those ideas put into code himself, most likely in the Firefox browser.

You know you are losing this argument because your attacks are becoming more and more desperate.

[Athernar]

What are you talking about? You claimed this was about minimalism, but his blog says it was not about the minimalist browser but about at least one specific feature.

If the prototype has nothing to do with the suit, that counts for both UI minimalism and feature-set. Make up your mind.

Proof of what? That he got paid for doing something for Opera is not disputed. Nor is it disputed that when you get paid to do work, that work belongs to whoever paid you.

Paid for what exactly? He didn't do any work, he advocated a certain style of minimalist UI (as per the article) and Opera weren't interested.

"I inform the new CEO at the time, Lars Boilesen, that I will most likely pursue to contribute to an open source project like the Mozilla Firefox browser instead, since I think many of my original GB ideas and the direction I wanted to take the browser still has value, and I would like to see the ideas put into code."

In other words, he was talking about various ideas while Opera was paying him for coming up with ideas, but now he wanted to see those ideas put into code himself, most likely in the Firefox browser.

I don't think this is about code. It's about technology presented in a video from Mozilla a while back. In fact, the guy who was sued even admits that he took stuff he made while on Opera's payroll to Mozilla.

So basically: Guy gets hired as a contractor. He gets paid to make some cool features. He then takes those features which he was paid for at Opera to a competitor, obviously breaching his contract with Opera and passing on trade secrets to the competitor.

Opera seems to be complaining that their competition got their hands on top secret stuff.

Another interesting change of position. First it was he actually made something, now it's down to ideas and vision?

You know you are losing this argument because your attacks are becoming more and more desperate.

Nah, your constantly changing position is a far bigger indicator.

[cigamrorrim]

Oh geez, Firefox and Opera look almost identical, who copied who here, or is Opera based off of Firefox now?

Actually, I -thought- that some of the code in Firefox is handmedown from Netscape. Atleast, that's where Mozilla mutated from. There is sort of a chain with web browsers. Some of coders who worked on Netscape were on the original Mosiac team. Mosiac is the web browser that microsoft purchased and it mutated into IE. I think Apple's Safari is a mutation from Firefox.

So, in essense, I think they've all borrowed from each other to some degree.