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E3 audience offended by "rape joke" at Microsoft Xbox One event


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#91 Charisma

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 12:37

All I can say is, if people stopped trying to frame this in the context of rape, and framed it instead in a gaming/Xbox Live context, it makes perfect sense. When you beat someone in a game, you are 'asserting dominance' over them, at least temporarily and in the context of the game. Someone could have made this comment about a game of checkers, for ****'s sake.

The only reason this became a big deal is because a bunch of non-gamers were watching (or more likely hearing about on Twitter, getting offended on someone else's behalf, going on a moral crusade) a gaming event and do not understand the "live gaming culture".

If they think that was rapey and offensive, heaven help them the first time they get 'teabagged' in Halo :laugh:


#92 psionicinversion

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 12:41

:D hahaha

#93 ctrl_alt_delete

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 12:41

anyone who sees rape in that must have been raped at some point in their life. I'm sorry they had to go through that, but not everything is about rape.
I talk smack to my girl all the time when we're playing games, does that mean I want to rape her or beat her too?
what about when I talk smack to my bros, does that mean I want to rape them too?

#94 fusi0n

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 12:43

People are just reaching.. But DAMN.. How much negative press can a console get.. I really hope Microsoft listens.

#95 +Nik L

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 12:45

what about when I talk smack to my bros, does that mean I want to rape them too?

Wow... I'm done here - it seems some people can clearly not follow an argument (DF: I don't mean you - I was enjoying our back & forth).

I clearly have said "No it doesn't mean you want to rape them". It means you wish to dominate them in game. Fine. Except the phrase has it's roots back in other forms of domination, and using it in a joking way - well it's perfectly acceptable for some to see that as belittling a harrowing crime.

But hey, if people can't keep up, that is their problem.

#96 Yusuf M.

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 16:57

The whole tone of this thread reflects a hostility towards women. Are you aware of how hostile the gaming community is towards female gamers, and how often the word and idea of rape get thrown around as an insult? It's not particularly surprising some people would view that display at E3 to be, at the very least, in poor taste.

I don't think people in this thread are hostile towards women. I think you're mistaking the tone of negativity for the people that made this an issue to begin with (which includes men) with hostility towards women. No one is singling out women and attacking them and no one is denying the gender inequality issues women face in gaming.

What? Less negative than being stupid or of being a Nazi/fascist?

You didn't answer my question. If they used more positive words, would you still use the same "A lot of angry men on Neowin, it seems." blanket statement? You generalized most of the people in this thread because of 2 posts (2 out of 32 at the time).

Some people mightn't see the problem, but that doesn't mean it isn't there. People in this thread have been entirely dismissive of this issue. One or two people may have made a reasoned response, but most were just along the lines of "Oh women complaining ..Here we go again..". This topic reeks of male privilege.

It seems any woman who advocates for women's rights is a "militant feminist". Like any atheist who advocates for secularism is a "militant atheist".

What you said reminds me of a video I watched awhile ago. It was about a men's rights activist bringing up the issue of false rape allegations that have drastic consequences for the men involved. The feminists around him, which included one man, completely ignored what he had to say and accused him of ignoring the issue of real rape victims. What they didn't realize is that the man reported on real rape victims for a long time and only recently switched his focus to false rape allegations against men.

I think you're confusing some people's focus on this specific issue for dismissal of an even greater issue. I don't see how that has to do with "male privilege". And I also think you're viewing this thread with a lens of hostility. When did anyone say something similar to, "Oh women complaining ..Here we go again"? The person that popularized what happened on Twitter is a male game developer. Any issues we have with how this was perceived is with people (men and women) and not just women.

Anyway, there's a big difference between advocating for women's rights and advocating against men's rights but that's a debate for another thread.

That's all very well and good but if re-read what I said, you'll find I didn't mention the event at all - but rather the reactions to it. In this thread, and elsewhere.

You didn't have to mention the event because we're obviously on the same topic here. You mentioned the reactions to what happened and I addressed why the reactions happened. Gender inequality issues are a real thing for women in gaming but that doesn't mean we're ignoring it or disagree with it simply because we disagree with this specific case. It's unfortunate that some people said awful things on Twitter but that certainly doesn't reflect our community here. I just think it's a little unfair to lump Neowinians with silly men/boys that have nothing better to do than hate on women online.

All I can say is, if people stopped trying to frame this in the context of rape, and framed it instead in a gaming/Xbox Live context, it makes perfect sense. When you beat someone in a game, you are 'asserting dominance' over them, at least temporarily and in the context of the game. Someone could have made this comment about a game of checkers, for ****'s sake.

The only reason this became a big deal is because a bunch of non-gamers were watching (or more likely hearing about on Twitter, getting offended on someone else's behalf, going on a moral crusade) a gaming event and do not understand the "live gaming culture".

If they think that was rapey and offensive, heaven help them the first time they get 'teabagged' in Halo :laugh:

I think that's a big issue. Some people associate dominance with rape because women are perceived to be helpless when they've been raped by an evil strong man. Rape is an awful thing but I don't think it should be extended to other stuff, so much that men have to be careful of what they say because they may be seen as supporting rape. "Just let it happen, it'll be over soon." is a good example. Am I not allowed to say that to a woman? What about a man? What if I said that to a dog? What if a woman said that to me? Is she allowed to say it because women don't rape men? That's the major problem with framing something as harmless as that sentence as rape-y.

And I think you're right Charisma. A lot of women don't play games for various reasons but some of the ones active on social networks are firm supporters of feminism. I can see why they saw that as an issue without considering the gaming aspect of it. A bunch of people got offended on Twitter for various reasons and this was blown way out of proportion.

#97 compl3x

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 03:22

I don't think people in this thread are hostile towards women. I think you're mistaking the tone of negativity for the people that made this an issue to begin with (which includes men) with hostility towards women. No one is singling out women and attacking them and no one is denying the gender inequality issues women face in gaming.


This issue has been summarised in this thread like so:

A non issue
anyone offended should "see a shrink"
feminazis up to their old tricks
this:
Posted Image
people who have a problem with this should just go and get laid
morons
accusations of white knighting


If that isn't hostile, what would you describe it as?

You didn't answer my question. If they used more positive words, would you still use the same "A lot of angry men on Neowin, it seems." blanket statement? You generalized most of the people in this thread because of 2 posts (2 out of 32 at the time).


No. Because if they didn't display hostility I wouldn't think they were being angry jerks. My point was that this thread is wholly dismissive of the issue and hostile to anyone who thinks otherwise. The examples above, which are greater than 2, make that clear.

Add in the fact that some comments some people have made on this site in topics concerning sexual assault, women's rights, rape etc. are informing my view that there are a lot of angry men on this site. There was one particularly awful topic awhile ago which almost made me leave the site entirely.

What you said reminds me of a video I watched awhile ago. It was about a men's rights activist bringing up the issue of false rape allegations that have drastic consequences for the men involved. The feminists around him, which included one man, completely ignored what he had to say and accused him of ignoring the issue of real rape victims. What they didn't realize is that the man reported on real rape victims for a long time and only recently switched his focus to false rape allegations against men.


OK. And?... False rape allegations do happen and not only are they damaging to the man accused but also damaging to the victims of actual rape because some people think lots of women cry rape when it hasn't actually happened. In any case, rape going unreported or being poorly prosecuted is far more common than false allegations.

I think you're confusing some people's focus on this specific issue for dismissal of an even greater issue. I don't see how that has to do with "male privilege". And I also think you're viewing this thread with a lens of hostility. When did anyone say something similar to, "Oh women complaining ..Here we go again"? The person that popularized what happened on Twitter is a male game developer. Any issues we have with how this was perceived is with people (men and women) and not just women.


No, I am just willing to admit when I see people dismissing an issue because it doesn't effect them. That is pretty much the definition of privilege.

White person: That isn't racist. Get a sense of humour!

Straight person: That isn't homophobic, stop making mountains out of mole hills!

Man: We were just having a little fun, sweetheart, lighten up!

When you're in the position of privilege you don't appreciate what it is like not to be and can dismiss all types of bigotry.



Anyway, there's a big difference between advocating for women's rights and advocating against men's rights but that's a debate for another thread.


But you'll bring it up anyway? Who is advocating against men's rights? No one.

#98 Yusuf M.

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 17:09

This issue has been summarised in this thread like so:

A non issue
anyone offended should "see a shrink"
feminazis up to their old tricks
this:
Posted Image
people who have a problem with this should just go and get laid
morons
accusations of white knighting


If that isn't hostile, what would you describe it as?

]

No. Because if they didn't display hostility I wouldn't think they were being angry jerks. My point was that this thread is wholly dismissive of the issue and hostile to anyone who thinks otherwise. The examples above, which are greater than 2, make that clear.

Add in the fact that some comments some people have made on this site in topics concerning sexual assault, women's rights, rape etc. are informing my view that there are a lot of angry men on this site. There was one particularly awful topic awhile ago which almost made me leave the site entirely.

]

OK. And?... False rape allegations do happen and not only are they damaging to the man accused but also damaging to the victims of actual rape because some people think lots of women cry rape when it hasn't actually happened. In any case, rape going unreported or being poorly prosecuted is far more common than false allegations.

]

No, I am just willing to admit when I see people dismissing an issue because it doesn't effect them. That is pretty much the definition of privilege.

White person: That isn't racist. Get a sense of humour!

Straight person: That isn't homophobic, stop making mountains out of mole hills!

Man: We were just having a little fun, sweetheart, lighten up!

When you're in the position of privilege you don't appreciate what it is like not to be and can dismiss all types of bigotry.

]

But you'll bring it up anyway? Who is advocating against men's rights? No one.

No, it hasn't. Stop trying to paint the people in this thread in a negative light just because a few people chose their words poorly. You wouldn't be saying the same if a female dismissed the issue which did happen (see here and here). You seem so focused on the "hostility" or to use a better word, "negativity" but do you realize that just because someone is angry about something doesn't mean they're wrong? As I said before, this is a specific case that we're disagreeing with. Most of us here may happen to be male but that doesn't mean we're not allowed to disagree with an issue like this.

From my perspective, you have an issue with the people that responded to the issue in an immature way. And it turns out I was right. Most people in this thread were dismissive of the issue for valid reasons, not because they disagree with feminism in general. Who cares if they're angry. Anger is a valid emotion and we're allowed to express it just like happiness and sadness. The fact that you dwell on that so much troubles me. If the way people express their emotions bother you so much, then you need to grow some thicker skin.

You're not even focused on why we're disagreeing with the issue. Instead, you're focused on the way people expressed their emotions in response to it and painted them in a bad light because of that. I'd say that's a variation of an appeal to emotion (which is a logical fallacy). You associated negative emotions with people in this thread and disagreed with their position based on that.

The reason I brought up that example was to highlight a point. Most people in this thread disagreed with the issue. You took offence to their negativity and the way they responded and called them out for dismissing the issue rather than addressing why they dismissed. You could have brought up points of your own to show why this specific case was an issue, but you didn't.

Also, the privilege examples you brought up don't help your argument at all. It's entirely possible to be a white heterosexual male and disagree with what is seen as an issue against females (e.g. see the 2 posts I linked to above).

Anyway, I expressed my stance on the issue more than once and I'd like to know why you think this specific case is valid. Simply saying, "Women's rights issues are a real thing in gaming." doesn't count.

#99 compl3x

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 19:35

No, it hasn't. Stop trying to paint the people in this thread in a negative light just because a few people chose their words poorly. You wouldn't be saying the same if a female dismissed the issue which did happen (see here and here). You seem so focused on the "hostility" or to use a better word, "negativity" but do you realize that just because someone is angry about something doesn't mean they're wrong? As I said before, this is a specific case that we're disagreeing with. Most of us here may happen to be male but that doesn't mean we're not allowed to disagree with an issue like this.


People didn't "choose their words poorly" they posted childish responses which I challenged. The fact that 2 women (one random twitter person who could be completely full of **** - and another who seems to contradict herself by liking my fist post in this topic) didn't see the problem with this is irrelevant, it doesn't address the issue of sexism in gaming at all, it makes excuses for it by saying "well, see, some women are completely fine with being treated poorly".

From my perspective, you have an issue with the people that responded to the issue in an immature way. And it turns out I was right. Most people in this thread were dismissive of the issue for valid reasons, not because they disagree with feminism in general. Who cares if they're angry. Anger is a valid emotion and we're allowed to express it just like happiness and sadness. The fact that you dwell on that so much troubles me. If the way people express their emotions bother you so much, then you need to grow some thicker skin.


What's valid about saying "this issue doesn't effect me therefore it is a none issue?" Nothing.

I'm not dwelling on it, this is a forum where people express ideas and exchange opinions. I am taking the unpopular opinion so that means I am dwelling on it? Now you're dismissing my opinion because you disagree with it. LOL!

I am not thin-skinned, I disagree with the way people express themselves on this issue. Seems like a completely vali position to me. I think you're grasping because you have no ground left to defend. Attacking me as being thin-skinned doesn't strengthen your position one iota.


You're not even focused on why we're disagreeing with the issue. Instead, you're focused on the way people expressed their emotions in response to it and painted them in a bad light because of that. I'd say that's a variation of an appeal to emotion (which is a logical fallacy). You associated negative emotions with people in this thread and disagreed with their position based on that.


I have pointed out why I think people are disagreeing: male privilege. It doesn't effect anyone in this thread because they're men and rape jokes don't bother them so much so they dismiss the issue.


The reason I brought up that example was to highlight a point. Most people in this thread disagreed with the issue. You took offence to their negativity and the way they responded and called them out for dismissing the issue rather than addressing why they dismissed. You could have brought up points of your own to show why this specific case was an issue, but you didn't.


Why do you keep saying I am offended? I'm not. I don't throw that word around. You're trying to make this an emotional issue by accusing me of being offended and thin skinned. I've calmly made my points which people are free to agree or is agree with.

It's also worth noting that I haven't actually said whether I think this incident was sexist or if the joke made was rape-related. I have stated that the gaming culture has a problem with sexism, misogyny , abuse and with using the notion of rape as an insult. You've completely ignored that in favour of getting up on your high horse in an attempt to display your superior intellect.


Also, the privilege examples you brought up don't help your argument at all. It's entirely possible to be a white heterosexual male and disagree with what is seen as an issue against females (e.g. see the 2 posts I linked to above).

Anyway, I expressed my stance on the issue more than once and I'd like to know why you think this specific case is valid. Simply saying, "Women's rights issues are a real thing in gaming." doesn't count.


Now you're just being obtuse. My examples were to illustrate people with privilege dismissing serious issues that effect people without privilege.

Again, if you had read the whole topic you'd see I didn't say anything about this specific case beyond pointing out sexism and abuse directed towards women in gaming and why people might construe the comments made as misogynistic.

#100 Yusuf M.

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 20:43

People didn't "choose their words poorly" they posted childish responses which I challenged. The fact that 2 women (one random twitter person who could be completely full of **** - and another who seems to contradict herself by liking my fist post in this topic) didn't see the problem with this is irrelevant, it doesn't address the issue of sexism in gaming at all, it makes excuses for it by saying "well, see, some women are completely fine with being treated poorly".

The first reason I replied to you was because of this statement: "A lot of angry men on Neowin, it seems." Your subsequent replies were attempts at reinforcing your argument that Neowin has a lot of angry, hostile and sexist men. I tried to illustrate the point that the few people who used poor words and negative language were not representative of the men of Neowin. This thread isn't about addressing the issue of sexism. That requires a lot more work from a lot more people (both men and women) so I agree with you. Misogyny is a sad an unavoidable issue that needs to be dealt with.

What's valid about saying "this issue doesn't effect me therefore it is a none issue?" Nothing.

I'm not dwelling on it, this is a forum where people express ideas and exchange opinions. I am taking the unpopular opinion so that means I am dwelling on it? Now you're dismissing my opinion because you disagree with it. LOL!

I am not thin-skinned, I disagree with the way people express themselves on this issue. Seems like a completely vali position to me. I think you're grasping because you have no ground left to defend. Attacking me as being thin-skinned doesn't strengthen your position one iota.

Who said that? You're cherry picking (another logical fallacy). You're pointing out a few examples that support your argument while ignoring the rest of us that disagreed with the issue in a mature and respectful manner. I'm not saying you can't disagree with how someone expresses their disagreement with an issue. But to infer that they're angry about something or believe it doesn't affect them because of privilege isn't right. The issue I have is your focus on how someone disagreed with something rather than why. In this case, valid counterpoints were brought up to oppose the issue but you completely ignored that and swept most of us under the "angry men" rug.

I have pointed out why I think people are disagreeing: male privilege. It doesn't effect anyone in this thread because they're men and rape jokes don't bother them so much so they dismiss the issue.

And I disagree with you. I've read various tweets and comments, from women, that disagree with it. Do they disagree with it because of male privilege? It seems like you don't want men to disagree with it because they're men. I spoke to my sister and mother about it and they too disagree. To imply that men are not allowed to express disagreement, in any manner (e.g. angrily, happily, sadly), because they're less likely to get raped is unfair.

Why do you keep saying I am offended? I'm not. I don't throw that word around. You're trying to make this an emotional issue by accusing me of being offended and thin skinned. I've calmly made my points which people are free to agree or is agree with.

It's also worth noting that I haven't actually said whether I think this incident was sexist or if the joke made was rape-related. I have stated that the gaming culture has a problem with sexism, misogyny , abuse and with using the notion of rape as an insult. You've completely ignored that in favour of getting up on your high horse in an attempt to display your superior intellect.

It seemed like you were offended. You disagreed with the emotional aspect of people's disagreement so this was an emotional issue from the start. I merely pointed out that only a few people made posts that can be seen as "negative". Then you brought up the issue of gender inequality as a whole. And how people may not see the problem in this specific case but that the problem exists on a larger scale. As I said before, no one denied that. No one said "Oh, because the problem doesn't exist here... it isn't an issue at all for women in gaming." I certainly never ignored it and I've said it multiple times. What else do you want me to say other than, "I agree with you and I acknowledge the problem of sexism, misogyny, and abuse in the gaming industry."

Superior intellect? I'm not trying to display anything. I have nothing against you, compl3x. I'm not trying to be an condescending and I'm not picking on you because you have an opinion that isn't shared by many here.

Now you're just being obtuse. My examples were to illustrate people with privilege dismissing serious issues that effect people without privilege.

Again, if you had read the whole topic you'd see I didn't say anything about this specific case beyond pointing out sexism and abuse directed towards women in gaming and why people might construe the comments made as misogynistic.

You didn't. You stated quite clearly that you had an issue with how people responded to the issue. That's why I asked you why you think this case is valid. But enough about that. We can agree to disagree.

However, I'd like to say something. Maybe you don't have an issue with the emotions expressed but the reasons why they expressed it. It may be because they're in a privileged position (one where men are less likely to get raped). It may be because of misogyny. The bottom line is, the reasons why have to be addressed and not the resulting emotions aroused by the reasons.

With that said, I can't say I agree with some of the other posts in this thread.