Jump to content



Photo

  • Please log in to reply
48 replies to this topic

#1 MindTrickz

MindTrickz

    That's no way to treat a lady!

  • 1,266 posts
  • Joined: 18-September 03
  • Location: Europe:

Posted 21 July 2013 - 14:57

http://www.oxm.co.uk...through-kinect/

 

Microsoft will "aggressively challenge" any government attempt to spy through Kinect

 

 

Microsoft's been in the news a fair bit lately on the strength of its supposed collaboration with the US National Security Agency - a Guardian report alleges that the latter is able to gather user data via Skype, Outlook and Hotmail with Microsoft's consent. The company has now released a formal statement on the matter, denying much of the report and calling on the US government to allow it "to share publicly more complete information about how we handle national security requests for customer information".

 

Microsoft has also rejected claims that it will allow the NSA to gather data via the Xbox One's Kinect sensor, which is required for the console to run. "Absent a new law, we don't believe the government has the legal authority to compel us or any other company that makes products with cameras and microphones to start collecting voice and video data," reads a comment mailed to the Verge. "And we'd aggressively challenge in court any attempts to try and force us to do so."

 

Kinect's always-on status is a source of concern among those who worry that it could be turned into a surveillance device, but Microsoft insists that appropriate safeguards in place. For one thing, Kinect can be set to an "off" state, wherein it'll listen out for the activation phrase "Xbox on", and features a power light, so you'll know when it's operational. For another, the Verge reports that data is "anonymised" before being sent to Microsoft's servers, and it'll only be sent on with your explicit consent. Voice commands are converted to text before leaving the console, and biometric data is translated into numerical values.

 

Microsoft's policy guidelines urge that "you are in control of your personal data" - there will be "clear notifications" about how that data is used, and you can of course opt out of any potential data-sharing scheme if you choose. If that's not enough, you can also set the device to be completely unaware and unresponsive (presumably, you'll need to navigate to the console's settings using the controller in order to reenable voice commands and motion recognition).

 

So Microsoft just admitted that it is possible for the Kinect to spy on people, but that they would "aggressively challenge" it if the Government wanted to do that.... Until the NSA comes a knocking with a  general purpose FISA warrant or some similar and demand them to do something while forcing them to sign a gag order so Microsoft can't tell anybody.




#2 spenser.d

spenser.d

    Neowinian Senior

  • 10,543 posts
  • Joined: 19-December 03

Posted 21 July 2013 - 15:02

http://www.oxm.co.uk...through-kinect/

 

Microsoft will "aggressively challenge" any government attempt to spy through Kinect

 

 

So Microsoft just admitted that it is possible for the Kinect to spy on people

 

No they didn't.  Getting tired of people blowing this nonissue way out of proportion.



#3 OP MindTrickz

MindTrickz

    That's no way to treat a lady!

  • 1,266 posts
  • Joined: 18-September 03
  • Location: Europe:

Posted 21 July 2013 - 15:09

No they didn't.  Getting tired of people blowing this nonissue way out of proportion.

 

Yes, they did. They said "And we'd aggressively challenge in court any attempts to try and force us to do so.". Key word here being "forced". If a secret FISA court ordered them to comply with the NSA, the same courts that permitted the NSA the general purpose warrants for Skype, Outlook and SkyDrive etc., then they would have no choice but to allow Government surveillance; and they wouldn't be able to tell anyone about it.

 

FYI, the FISA court just renewed the NSA surveillance program.



#4 spenser.d

spenser.d

    Neowinian Senior

  • 10,543 posts
  • Joined: 19-December 03

Posted 21 July 2013 - 15:16

Yes, they did. They said "And we'd aggressively challenge in court any attempts to try and force us to do so.". Key word here being "forced". If a secret FISA court ordered them to comply with the NSA, the same courts that permitted the NSA the general purpose warrants for Skype, Outlook and SkyDrive etc., then they would have no choice but to allow Government surveillance; and they wouldn't be able to tell anyone about it.

 

FYI, the FISA court just renewed the NSA surveillance program.

 

Yeah but you're acting like Microsoft is collecting raw voice and video when they aren't at all.  They collect data on usage that would be useful for them to help improve Kinect.  It's getting blown way out of proportion.  The government couldn't "spy through Kinect" if they wanted to because that's just not how it works.



#5 +sanke1

sanke1

    Member

  • 2,720 posts
  • Joined: 07-October 07

Posted 21 July 2013 - 15:18

No they didn't.  Getting tired of people blowing this nonissue way out of proportion.

 
Privacy is never an issue these days. 
 
But yeah, those who fear privacy should buy a PS4.

The government couldn't "spy through Kinect" if they wanted to because that's just not how it works.


How confidently can you say that? Governments these days demand a backdoor given NSA and French security agencies.

#6 spenser.d

spenser.d

    Neowinian Senior

  • 10,543 posts
  • Joined: 19-December 03

Posted 21 July 2013 - 15:22

 
Privacy is never an issue these days. 
 
But yeah, those who fear privacy should buy a PS4.


How confidently can you say that? Governments these days demand a backdoor given NSA and French security agencies.

 

The government could demand it all they want but it wouldn't matter because it's literally technically not how it works.  It doesn't send raw voice and video data out to anywhere so there's nothing for them to get at.  They can't just magic a connection into your Xbox One and start watching you.



#7 alpha2beta

alpha2beta

    Neowinian

  • 121 posts
  • Joined: 02-December 08

Posted 21 July 2013 - 15:29

The government could demand it all they want but it wouldn't matter because it's literally technically not how it works.  It doesn't send raw voice and video data out to anywhere so there's nothing for them to get at.  They can't just magic a connection into your Xbox One and start watching you.

Sounds like you have had part in the design of the Kinect.



#8 OP MindTrickz

MindTrickz

    That's no way to treat a lady!

  • 1,266 posts
  • Joined: 18-September 03
  • Location: Europe:

Posted 21 July 2013 - 15:32

Yeah but you're acting like Microsoft is collecting raw voice and video when they aren't at all.  They collect data on usage that would be useful for them to help improve Kinect.  It's getting blown way out of proportion.  The government couldn't "spy through Kinect" if they wanted to because that's just not how it works.

 

But isn't that essentially the same argument that was used prior to the PRISM leak regarding Skype? That Microsoft did not collect voice and video data, change the peer to peer encryption or hand over the encryption key to the Government?

 

 

Not unlike Kinect, Skype had assured its users that wiretaps were technically impossible. "Because of Skype's peer-to-peer architecture and encryption techniques, Skype would not be able to comply with such a request," the company told CNET in 2008. And four years later, when hackers accused Skype owner Microsoft of changing the service's backend to facilitate government eavesdropping, the company categorically denied the accusations. Now, it seems like the company could have been lying, or at least had quietly changed its mind. Mind you, Microsoft is also denying last Thursday's Guardian report, but the denial is a lot less clear-cut. The company disavows having providing "blanket or direct access" to Skype, but doesn't deny that it provides Skype video or audio to the government upon request.



#9 spenser.d

spenser.d

    Neowinian Senior

  • 10,543 posts
  • Joined: 19-December 03

Posted 21 July 2013 - 15:32

Sounds like you have had part in the design of the Kinect.

 

No, I just read the entire article which details the data that's sent and I don't wear a tinfoil hat.



#10 OP MindTrickz

MindTrickz

    That's no way to treat a lady!

  • 1,266 posts
  • Joined: 18-September 03
  • Location: Europe:

Posted 21 July 2013 - 15:36

The government could demand it all they want but it wouldn't matter because it's literally technically not how it works.  It doesn't send raw voice and video data out to anywhere so there's nothing for them to get at.  They can't just magic a connection into your Xbox One and start watching you.

 

They literately said the same thing about Skype. Microsoft said that it was technically unable to comply with the Government surveillance request. "Because of Skype's peer-to-peer architecture and encryption techniques, Skype would not be able to comply with such a request,"

 

That was not true at all.



#11 spenser.d

spenser.d

    Neowinian Senior

  • 10,543 posts
  • Joined: 19-December 03

Posted 21 July 2013 - 15:37

But isn't that essentially the same argument that was used prior to the PRISM leak regarding Skype? That Microsoft did not collect voice and video data, change the peer to peer encryption or hand over the encryption key to the Government?

 

They could - the difference is that Skype is already a video calling service that sends raw voice and video out to another person.  Kinect is not that.  It's a fancy camera that captures your movements and listens for voice commands to be used on the console, not sent to some other party to watch (unless of course you're using the Skype app).  The infrastructure is different.



#12 OP MindTrickz

MindTrickz

    That's no way to treat a lady!

  • 1,266 posts
  • Joined: 18-September 03
  • Location: Europe:

Posted 21 July 2013 - 15:42

They could - the difference is that Skype is already a video calling service that sends raw voice and video out to another person.  Kinect is not that.  It's a fancy camera that captures your movements and listens for voice commands to be used on the console, not sent to some other party to watch (unless of course you're using the Skype app).  The infrastructure is different.

 

Correct, but since Microsoft changed Skype's encryption from peer 2 peer to peer 2 server; couldn't they essentially "flip the switch" and do the same with Kinect and allow the Governments to collect the Kinect data; the voice and video? Are you saying that is not possible? 



#13 spenser.d

spenser.d

    Neowinian Senior

  • 10,543 posts
  • Joined: 19-December 03

Posted 21 July 2013 - 15:44

Correct, but since Microsoft changed Skype's encryption from peer 2 peer to peer 2 server; couldn't they essentially "flip the switch" and do the same with Kinect and allow the Governments to collect the Kinect data; the voice and video? Are you saying that is not possible? 

 

Yes, because Kinect doesn't collect voice and video data.  It collects voice commands converted to text, and other numeric data points based on voice and video.  It would take much more than just flipping the switch to turn Kinect into a useful spy tool.



#14 articuno1au

articuno1au

    Neowinian Senior

  • 4,430 posts
  • Joined: 20-March 11
  • Location: Brisbane, Australia

Posted 21 July 2013 - 15:51

Never seen a company lie before.

 

If you can't see the potential for abuse, there's no way you're going to get this conversation.

 

Tin hatter or not, the recent information that has come to light with regards to secret compulsions and warrants would give the average person pause.

 

Just because it doesn't do it by default doesn't mean that they can't trigger it or make it happen via other means.

 

Given the console requires an online connection and feeds ads to the console, I'd say that shows already that they can pipe things to the XBox.



#15 TheExperiment

TheExperiment

    Starry

  • 4,957 posts
  • Joined: 11-October 03
  • Location: Elsewhere
  • OS: 8.1 x64

Posted 21 July 2013 - 15:54

If you can't see the potential for abuse, there's no way you're going to get this conversation.

 

Tin hatter or not, the recent information that has come to light with regards to secret compulsions and warrants would give the average person pause.

It doesn't matter.  Abuse would tank sales in and get the item banned in every country the offending government wasn't part of.

 

The government isn't this stupid, whatever you might believe.

 

And if it wasn't the US government, MS would very likely decide it wasn't worth selling the item in that country in the first place.





Click here to login or here to register to remove this ad, it's free!