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A game can be beautiful without being graphically good. There's a difference between aesthetic and graphics. Wind Waker was a beautiful game, even if the graphics are not that great. Battlefield 3 is impressive graphically, but it has no aesthetic, i wouldn't consider it beautiful. Impressive? Yes. Beautiful? No. It's graphical appeal is in the realistic-ness of it, not in the style or aesthetic. World of Warcraft is not strong graphically, but from what i have seen on Pandaria, it is a beautiful game with the aesthetic they have.

What's frustrating is that the defects of wow (relatively simple models, low-res textures, simple animations, etc) still manage to drag the most impressive hardware to it's knees. There is no difference in framerate between a rather dated GTX 570 and Crossfire 7970s. Bumping your CPU from an i5-650 to a i7-3960x adds a half dozen frames per second. Going from 4gb to 64gb of RAM does nothing at all.

That would be fine if the game was playing at 150 FPS but it's just barely creeping along. With the absolute best hardware warcraft can use it'll just barely reach 60 FPS in the new areas with all of the options turned up. Go to kill world bosses or do some large-group raiding and 30 FPS is your new goal. I imagine the game could look a lot nicer if their engine wasn't cobbled together out of toothpicks and bubble gum.

I find myself joining the small chorus of people who wish Blizzard would completely replace their graphics engine. I don't want fancy new graphical effects (though I wouldn't complain if they handed them out), I just want the damn game to run halfway well on current generation hardware. If world war 2 action shorter games can handle 200 FPS in 40-player death matches on 6x1440p screens then I don't think it's too much to ask for 25m raids to stay at 60 FPS on powerful hardware. They don't have to leave the 'old computer' people behind - even unreal 3 can work at least as well as the current wow engine on ancient hardware provided you're willing to drop down to 'ultra low' graphics settings.

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A game can be beautiful without being graphically good. There's a difference between aesthetic and graphics. Wind Waker was a beautiful game, even if the graphics are not that great. Battlefield 3 is impressive graphically, but it has no aesthetic, i wouldn't consider it beautiful. Impressive? Yes. Beautiful? No. It's graphical appeal is in the realistic-ness of it, not in the style or aesthetic. World of Warcraft is not strong graphically, but from what i have seen on Pandaria, it is a beautiful game with the aesthetic they have.

I'm not saying they have to ditch the art style that they have, just that they need to step up the overall quality of it. Improve the overall terrible lighting, improve the poly counts and texture quality, improve various effect by making better use of shaders, and so on. All those could be done and bring dramatic improvements without sacrificing the games style. There's also the long time issue with sub-par performance on great hardware that evn mentions.

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What's frustrating is that the defects of wow (relatively simple models, low-res textures, simple animations, etc) still manage to drag the most impressive hardware to it's knees. There is no difference in framerate between a rather dated GTX 570 and Crossfire 7970s. Bumping your CPU from an i5-650 to a i7-3960x adds a half dozen frames per second. Going from 4gb to 64gb of RAM does nothing at all.

That would be fine if the game was playing at 150 FPS but it's just barely creeping along. With the absolute best hardware warcraft can use it'll just barely reach 60 FPS in the new areas with all of the options turned up. Go to kill world bosses or do some large-group raiding and 30 FPS is your new goal. I imagine the game could look a lot nicer if their engine wasn't cobbled together out of toothpicks and bubble gum.

I find myself joining the small chorus of people who wish Blizzard would completely replace their graphics engine. I don't want fancy new graphical effects (though I wouldn't complain if they handed them out), I just want the damn game to run halfway well on current generation hardware. If world war 2 action shorter games can handle 200 FPS in 40-player death matches on 6x1440p screens then I don't think it's too much to ask for 25m raids to stay at 60 FPS on powerful hardware. They don't have to leave the 'old computer' people behind - even unreal 3 can work at least as well as the current wow engine on ancient hardware provided you're willing to drop down to 'ultra low' graphics settings.

Yeah, I noticed this a few years back when Aion first came out: I had Aion turned up on the highest settings running at 60 fps solid, where WoW would leave me around 30 fps just standing in Silvermoon alone, with the graphics slightly above medium (customized). It's just the aging of the engine, and I'm not sure there's much they can do about it, or if there is much that they WANT to do about it rather, given the story is already on the backburner with their real focus towards Titan now.

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What's frustrating is that the defects of wow (relatively simple models, low-res textures, simple animations, etc) still manage to drag the most impressive hardware to it's knees. There is no difference in framerate between a rather dated GTX 570 and Crossfire 7970s. Bumping your CPU from an i5-650 to a i7-3960x adds a half dozen frames per second. Going from 4gb to 64gb of RAM does nothing at all.

That would be fine if the game was playing at 150 FPS but it's just barely creeping along. With the absolute best hardware warcraft can use it'll just barely reach 60 FPS in the new areas with all of the options turned up. Go to kill world bosses or do some large-group raiding and 30 FPS is your new goal. I imagine the game could look a lot nicer if their engine wasn't cobbled together out of toothpicks and bubble gum.

I find myself joining the small chorus of people who wish Blizzard would completely replace their graphics engine. I don't want fancy new graphical effects (though I wouldn't complain if they handed them out), I just want the damn game to run halfway well on current generation hardware. If world war 2 action shorter games can handle 200 FPS in 40-player death matches on 6x1440p screens then I don't think it's too much to ask for 25m raids to stay at 60 FPS on powerful hardware. They don't have to leave the 'old computer' people behind - even unreal 3 can work at least as well as the current wow engine on ancient hardware provided you're willing to drop down to 'ultra low' graphics settings.

I was about to say I run at 100fps all the time but then I went from SW to Jade Forest just to check and I dropped from 109FPS to 60FPS for no real reason since it wasn't even crowded.

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<p>

I was about to say I run at 100fps all the time but then I went from SW to Jade Forest just to check and I dropped from 109FPS to 60FPS for no real reason since it wasn't even crowded.

Nobody does - at least not with the options maxed out doing content with other people. Go stand in the middle of jade forest with ultra settings (including shadows and multisampling) and add:

/console groundeffectdist 600/console groundeffectdensity 250

For bonus points you can up your spelleffectlevel and particlelevel??too but ground clutter alone can cripple sli'd690s with an overclocked extreme edition processor. Drop into a 25m raid with a fair amount of damage going around (heroic ultraxion past minute #4) and holding 60 FPS is a a dream more than a reality.??I can pull down ~50-60-ish most of the time which is pretty good??but there's no amount of money that'll buy you 60+ consistent FPS doing sha of anger with a full raid.Go past 1080p to 5760x1080 or even just the 1440p displays that are becoming popular and you can drop to 30 FPS even on a flightpath.

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Yeh the wow engine isnt exactly amazing when its comes to random slow down etc. But I generally take the view that if you can run 100fps+ when solo at whatever settings theen, you should be able to hold half of that in raids.

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Probably much better if the GW2 fanboys go back to their dying game and stop griefing in this thread, what do ya think?. Anyway, great launch blizz, good stuff. =)

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via Game Informer

What do you guys think about this? I'm inclined to say that it's likely a mixture of the Pandarian Theme, as well as a mix of WoW fatigue and a ton of recent releases. I likely would have tried WoW again if i didn't have GW2, Borderlands 2, Torchlight 2 and X-Com next week all waiting for me.

They're not counting the digital sales in that one so this means nothing.

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Yeh the wow engine isnt exactly amazing when its comes to random slow down etc. But I generally take the view that if you can run 100fps+ when solo at whatever settings theen, you should be able to hold half of that in raids.

That's more or less what I'm aiming for. 10m raids are typically not a big deal, I can usually pull down 60 FPS+ while recording. 20 people seems to be the magic number where things go to hell.

I suspect the terrible raid performance is a distinct problem from the terrible graphics performance when you're alone. In dreadwastes there are place with 100+ NPCs all doing their thing and it doesn't hurt your framerate at all compared to the rest of the zone. You can probably handle 25 players killing 25+ NPCs easily too (frame rate drops in crouded starter zones aren't as drastic as they are in raids).

I suspect that the 25 people in your group are the problem because each person exponentially increases the traffic for events: UNIT_AURA, TARGET_CHANGED, START_CASTING, etc. all get fired and need to be dealt with. The game also has to update named units (target, targettarget, targettargettarget, party1pettargettargettarget?). All of those events are handled with Lua which isn't the fastest thing WoW. We know that addons can ruin your framerate if they're not up to date and throwing exceptions or if they're just inefficient. If they would spin off lua into it's own process maybe they could handle that a little better. I can think of reasons they'd want the lua environment closely tied to rendering (your UI always reflects exactly whats on screen, it's easier to write, etc) but they're not very good given the downsides. I shouldn't be able to ruin the rendering performance with /run while(true) end.

That wouldn't address the poor framerates elsewhere but I think many people would like to see the slow down caused by large group content addressed. A computer that can hold down high settings everywhere is pretty cheap (even integrated intel graphics) but if you want to raid with 30 FPS you're looking at some pretty hefty hardware even if you turn down your graphics. Maybe with huge number of 'casual players' doing LFR there will be sufficient demand for that to be fixed.

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They're not counting the digital sales in that one so this means nothing.

All people i know bought the digital version.

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I've loved this first week of MoP. Tons of content, lots to do. Only problem is that the instances are a little too easy, but thats better than too hard.

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I believe it was Evn who discussed drop rates and I gotta agree. Whoever came up with these rates and approved 'em needs to be slap'd hard. Great zones, and good story (from what I payed attention to), but the quests are killing it.

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So Elegon is not a joke?

Don't miss your chance to see the first difficult encounter in 8 months. We all know this isn't going to last.

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Is he the first boss? I didnt get a chance to raid last night (damn you 3 1/2 hour server queues!).

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So Elegon is not a joke?

Don't miss your chance to see the first difficult encounter in 8 months. We all know this isn't going to last.

It should. With the raid finder there's no reason to nerf normal and heroic raid content anymore imo. If blizz continue to nerf then the raid finder will serve no purpose at all. I see the raid finder as an opportunity for casual people to see the content while keeping the game hard for better players via normal and heroic content. DS easy dificulty was a big mistake.

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Is he the first boss? I didnt get a chance to raid last night (damn you 3 1/2 hour server queues!).

He's #5, IMO the pacing of the instance (what I've seen) is pretty good for normal mode. The first ones are marginal healing/dps/don't stand in stupid checks and the later ones require more individual responsibility. #4 could probably be buffed but I suppose that encounter has the "hard mode" version you can do for elite loot where as most people are probably doing 'easy mode' now. It works kinda like iron council, or for older players: eredar twins/bug trio.

f blizz continue to nerf then the raid finder will serve no purpose at all.

The "problem" with this encounter is that it requires exceptional DPS and very high levels of execution. The execution check is giving the sorts of guilds that did '0% deathwing for ****s and giggles' a pretty hard time so it's not something that less experienced people are going to just walk in and get: it'll take practice. There's a pretty stiff penalty for not getting the orbs done properly and that means you really need to play well to move on: you can't zerg this encounter as it stands. The DPS requirements are also very stiff (those 0% DW guilds are hitting hard enrage despite having the best possible gear at this point in the expansion) which means that you need to have players with a high level of expertise with both end-game raiding and their particular class. Most players like to think they can play their class as well as somebody in a top-10 guild but they can't. There are pretty huge gaps in skill that are very hard to overcome even with a full tier of loot.

If extremely good/experienced players (ie: bloodlegion, premonition, etc) aren't face-rolling the DPS requirements with current gear levels then 'regular players' are going to find it impossible. full raid epics will go some way to letting the best players walk past the DPS requirement (but only if they can do the execution check) but I think it may be set at a point where 'regular players' just can't hit it with full epic loot. Think back to dragonsoul: the best guilds were getting through that place in full firelands gear but 99% of the people who cleared it needed a set of 410 gear and 20%+ nerfs to make major progress.

The encounter reminds me of heroic yor'sahj/baleroc 25m or pre-nerf atramedes/valiona 10m (where the health is ~10% too high to be reaslitically completed by anybody but that top-100 crowd. I'm anticipating a nerf - probably in the form of a direct HP nerf - in the next lockout or two.

If I'm wrong and they leave it alone: awesome! but I think that sets us up for an end game where the gap between 'great guilds' and 'good guilds' gets out of hand pretty quickly - especially if the next instances are tuned to be even more challenging than this one. I'm curious how the final boss stacks up to this Elgelon: I'd really like for blizzard to break the trend of making the final boss a disappointment compared to the second-to-last ones.

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Well as long as they don't nerf it Fireland style ... I still can't believe what they did with Fireland. We were about to kill Rhyolith hero before the nerf and move on to Beth or Baleroc. We were at 4% to kill him and everyone was going to get their rep ring the next week. Only 2 guilds on the server had him and no other guild but us on the server was close to down him. Then bang comes the nerf. It was really frustrating cause we worked hard to get him to 4% and he was really really easy after the nerf like almost faceroll.

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The problem with nerfs is everybody wants them pushed back until the week after they get the kill when they're close. If they set the door so that I get in and the next guy is locked out then he'll ask for one more week. If he gets one more week then the guy behind him wants it. Nerfs suck for anybody right on the boundry but they're really good for anybody who's quite far from it (which is almost certainly a much larger number of players). I think the cutting edge FOS is a pretty elegant solution for wanting to balancing things:

  • It recognizes the skill/effort/etc of players who do content while it's relevant on hard mode without nerfs.
  • It lets the good but not amazing players have a shot at clearing a tier before new stuff comes out with nerfs
  • It lets the very good but not quite top-1% players who clear content with the nerf have something to do with all their shiney gear between tiers (earn the FOS)
  • removing it at the end of a tier means I don't have to carry around a "herald set" for the next 2 years.
  • It ensures that the nerfs are reversible so you always have a chance to experience the encounter 'as it was intended'.

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I must say that so far i love this xpac. I don't have as much time to play as i used to and i leveled 90 two days ago only so i've yet to try the raids since my ilevel is way too low (still wearing many green items).

But i really love the zones so far. The lore is really great. The soundtrack is awesome. The lore is far superior to Cata lore (or lack of to be honest). The dungeons are really nice. The heroics are too easy but can't wait to try the challenges once i'll have the proper gear. I'll start doing dailies tonight to be able to buy those tailoring patterns.

Maybe the fact that i like anime movies like Mononoke Hime, Grave of the fireflies and 5 centimeters per second has to do with my love of the zones and lore. I can see the problem some people have with pandas and mystical thingies though. But personally i thought the mix between wow lore and oriental lore would be more disparate that it actually is. It actually blends together very well.

Now i just hope that the raids will be more interesting that Dragon Soul.

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I must say that so far i love this xpac. I don't have as much time to play as i used to and i leveled 90 two days ago only so i've yet to try the raids since my ilevel is way too low (still wearing many green items).

But i really love the zones so far. The lore is really great. The soundtrack is awesome. The lore is far superior to Cata lore (or lack of to be honest). The dungeons are really nice. The heroics are too easy but can't wait to try the challenges once i'll have the proper gear. I'll start doing dailies tonight to be able to buy those tailoring patterns.

Maybe the fact that i like anime movies like Mononoke Hime, Grave of the fireflies and 5 centimeters per second has to do with my love of the zones and lore. I can see the problem some people have with pandas and mystical thingies though. But personally i thought the mix between wow lore and oriental lore would be more disparate that it actually is. It actually blends together very well.

Now i just hope that the raids will be more interesting that Dragon Soul.

Keep us updated. I'm interested to see your opinion on it all, as I'm taking your opinion to be worth its weight in how you're approaching the expansion objectively. Definitely makes for a good read. (Y)

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So heroics are LK status? Just gather 2-3 packs and AoE down?

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I'm torn between buying this or saving my money. On one hand, i've heard good things about it. Guild Wars 2 is great, but i miss getting together with a guild and taking on large scale content. The zones look great, i enjoy the WoW lore, and i'm glad the raids seem hard.

On the other hand, i feel like the combat might seem archaic. I enjoy the fluidity of the newer MMO combat styles like seen in Tera or GW2. Has anyone that has played either of those found it difficult to come back to WoW? Even something as simple as dodge, or being able to cast while moving might feel stale if it's missing.

I sorta miss WoW. I always think i'm done with it, but it gives me a ton of entertainment hours. I'm not sure if i'm burned out. I joined Cata at the end of it and did DS with a guild but i found it horribly boring. I am not sure if DS was just a bad raid, or the game has gotten stale for me. I like with WoW i can get home, log on for a few hours, and just play. I tend to have ADD when it comes to games so i jump around a LOT, so something that can hold my attention would save me some money.

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I sorta miss WoW. I always think i'm done with it, but it gives me a ton of entertainment hours. I'm not sure if i'm burned out. I joined Cata at the end of it and did DS with a guild but i found it horribly boring. I am not sure if DS was just a bad raid, or the game has gotten stale for me. I like with WoW i can get home, log on for a few hours, and just play. I tend to have ADD when it comes to games so i jump around a LOT, so something that can hold my attention would save me some money.

IMO Dragon Soul is one of the worst raid Blizzard ever did. I have yet to try the new raids but so far from a levelling perspective MoP is the best xpac since BC.

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I have yet to try the new raids but so far from a levelling perspective MoP is the best xpac since BC.

That's how I feel. I joined a 40m random raid in Kun-Lai summit to kill the Sha. Got him down after about 10 minutes and got my epic boots quest. Something about that experience brought back something I hadn't felt since early BC.

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That's how I feel. I joined a 40m random raid in Kun-Lai summit to kill the Sha. Got him down after about 10 minutes and got my epic boots quest. Something about that experience brought back something I hadn't felt since early BC.

Crap 40man, is that what it took to take him down? I was planning of soloing him tonight :/

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