thedarkavenger Posted May 10, 2003 Share Posted May 10, 2003 JaggedFlame its called video posting.. works the same way linux draws. means that if u have a movie going its still going on desktop 8 or whatever even when u can't see it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superrcat Posted May 10, 2003 Share Posted May 10, 2003 When Longhorn comes out, you may not even have the concept of a window anymore. According to some things I've read, each window will think that it is always on top and the only thing on the screen. This means that each window will always be redrawing itself. Couple this with the DirectX technology and you've got something that has way more potential than Quartz does right now. Each window in OS X IS redrawn itself. I give up, because you will not even read about OS X to give it a fair look. No matter what, you will back up Microsoft because that is all you know. You took one comment, got defensive and turned a topic into a flame war. Good job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akaj23 Posted May 10, 2003 Share Posted May 10, 2003 Yeah, so does OS X. Everything you see on screen is the result of millions upon millions of calculations by Quartz, the revolutionary composited windowing system in Mac OS X that uses the Portable Document Format (PDF) as the basis of its imaging model.They're still based off of static textures. Longhorn uses live data, e.g. the data from the application itself is used in the 3D transformation, not a texture generated by the OS. If this is true, Longhorn will be able to do what Quartz does more efficiently, leaving room for more advanced effects.Yeah and you won't be able to do the things in that demo video in Longhorn either. Nor would I want to do something like have four video windows spiral around my screen. That demo video showed what the 3D processor was capable of doing, and that can't be done in OS X very well as it stands. I'm sure that those effects, while not being destined for the final version, are going to be upgraded, not downgraded, by the time it rolls around. In any case, we should stop talking about this, because there isn't much information about Longhorn out and speculating is just wasting time. Suffice it to say that Microsoft is aware of Quartz and isn't just going to create a copy of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomwarren Veteran Posted May 10, 2003 Veteran Share Posted May 10, 2003 None of these windows effects will be in the final build as we have seen them. Maybe window scaling but flipping and all that rubbish will not make it any further. It's just a demo :p Nice to see what they CAN do though and how they may implement this so it is v.useful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akaj23 Posted May 10, 2003 Share Posted May 10, 2003 Each window in OS X IS redrawn itself. I give up, because you will not even read about OS X to give it a fair look.No matter what, you will back up Microsoft because that is all you know. You took one comment, got defensive and turned a topic into a flame war. Good job. For Chrissake, I KNOW about OS X. I've read about Quartz before I came to this thread, you know. How am I turning this into a flamewar? I'm calm. Are you calm? I just want to talk. If anyone's turning this into a flamewar, it's you for accusing me of backing up Microsoft no matter what. Yes, each window in OS X redraws itself. However, the textures are not generated by live data from the application. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thedarkavenger Posted May 10, 2003 Share Posted May 10, 2003 *talks about winfs* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fonze Posted May 10, 2003 Share Posted May 10, 2003 why don't you mac kids move along, the big boys are trying to talk here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akaj23 Posted May 10, 2003 Share Posted May 10, 2003 Here's another perspective. In Quartz, the output drawn by the window is saved as a texture. What it basically does is allocate enough memory to save these textures and do whatever with them using the GPU, and then redraw to the screen. In Longhorn, whatever is drawn on the display surface is directly manipulated. This means that you don't need to use memory to allocate any textures, because the 3D manipulation is done in the memory buffer that is written to by the application. This lets Longhorn use less memory, and it's faster because it doesn't have to wait for the OS to constantly resize and update textures so often. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superrcat Posted May 10, 2003 Share Posted May 10, 2003 Yes, the textures not generated by the application, Quartz generates the textures pixel by pixel from information the application sends to it, live data. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomwarren Veteran Posted May 10, 2003 Veteran Share Posted May 10, 2003 Yes lets keep this thread on topic, and not stray onto how better LH may or may not be over Apple technologies as neither will convince the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akaj23 Posted May 10, 2003 Share Posted May 10, 2003 thedarkavenger, the problem is there's not all that much to say about WinFS. There's a little paragraph blurb at WinInformant that says it runs as a service. Great. Big deal. Now what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thedarkavenger Posted May 10, 2003 Share Posted May 10, 2003 Basicaly in lamens terms. Mac OS runs hardware mode like a game. Windows is going to use hardware mode to draw. That means that they can do things faster. but winfs is really cool im sure we should talk about that. And when u install it. It downloads bits from the net and syncs up itself. It runs like gentoo getting bits from schemes.ms.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akaj23 Posted May 10, 2003 Share Posted May 10, 2003 Yes, the textures not generated by the application, Quartz generates the textures pixel by pixel from information the application sends to it, live data. That's the difference. See, in Longhorn, that doesn't happen. The application's data that's drawn directly to the buffer is then manipulated, instead of the OS having to draw textures pixel by pixel and resize them. This also allows developers more control over the way their windows are displayed. Pretty cool stuff. Well, again, let's not go too far with this, because there's only so much I know about Longhorn; it's not out yet. Like I said, I'm sure Microsoft knows about Quartz, and I'm pretty sure they'll outdo it. After that, Apple will try to outdo it with another Quartz, and so on. Healthy competition. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superrcat Posted May 10, 2003 Share Posted May 10, 2003 Here's another perspective. In Quartz, the output drawn by the window is saved as a texture. What it basically does is allocate enough memory to save these textures and do whatever with them using the GPU, and then redraw to the screen.In Longhorn, whatever is drawn on the display surface is directly manipulated. This means that you don't need to use memory to allocate any textures, because the 3D manipulation is done in the memory buffer that is written to by the application. This lets Longhorn use less memory, and it's faster because it doesn't have to wait for the OS to constantly resize and update textures so often. Incorrect, it does not send it to memory. It goes through a composite buffer as well. http://www.apple.com/macosx/pdfs/Quartz_TB.pdf As far as the mac boys comment, I am an Enterprise Admin for an Active Directory Forest of 80,000 users. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thedarkavenger Posted May 10, 2003 Share Posted May 10, 2003 *breathes in breathes out* TALK ABOUT WINFS if you don't know how to use it may i suggest u open a thread called "mac os is good but longhorn is gona 0wn it" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superrcat Posted May 10, 2003 Share Posted May 10, 2003 So WinFS being a service, do you think it will be similar to how the SQL Server 2000 Desktop Engine currently runs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akaj23 Posted May 10, 2003 Share Posted May 10, 2003 Here's another perspective. In Quartz, the output drawn by the window is saved as a texture. What it basically does is allocate enough memory to save these textures and do whatever with them using the GPU, and then redraw to the screen.In Longhorn, whatever is drawn on the display surface is directly manipulated. This means that you don't need to use memory to allocate any textures, because the 3D manipulation is done in the memory buffer that is written to by the application. This lets Longhorn use less memory, and it's faster because it doesn't have to wait for the OS to constantly resize and update textures so often. Incorrect, it does not send it to memory. It goes through a composite buffer as well. http://www.apple.com/macosx/pdfs/Quartz_TB.pdf As far as the mac boys comment, I am an Enterprise Admin for an Active Directory Forest of 80,000 users. http://www.omnigroup.com/mailman/archive/m...ary/007558.html The composite buffer handles 2D primitives. Longhorn attempts to offload this data into the adapter, which makes it more efficient with memory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thedarkavenger Posted May 10, 2003 Share Posted May 10, 2003 As far as the mac boys comment, I am an Enterprise Admin for an Active Directory Forest of 80,000 users. then your going to love the things i talked about.. active dir sync and the graphical user logon for domains.. the picture stored in teh AD and the ability to remote sync applications Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thedarkavenger Posted May 10, 2003 Share Posted May 10, 2003 see how i got the topic back on track just b4 i went to bed.. *g* on and winfs is going to make my life a pleasure.. i can install stuff without having to run that 10min bat file. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fonze Posted May 10, 2003 Share Posted May 10, 2003 basicly: - makes a database of all files on your hd - keeps track of version numbers, date modified, size, etc. this increases effectivity of patches, windows update, file browsing, syncing files over the internet/network it is faster for a patch/service pack to check a database for version info than it is to search your HD for each file and get that info. it puts it all in one place. this will surely increase file browsing aswell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superrcat Posted May 10, 2003 Share Posted May 10, 2003 basicly:- makes a database of all files on your hd - keeps track of version numbers, date modified, size, etc. this increases effectivity of patches, windows update, file browsing, syncing files over the internet/network it is faster for a patch/service pack to check a database for version info than it is to search your HD for each file and get that info. it puts it all in one place. this will surely increase file browsing aswell *cough* Slammer. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Veteran Posted May 10, 2003 Veteran Share Posted May 10, 2003 wow, this has been a hot thread lately.... i think winFS will be really cool when it comes out. i'm just worried about how fast it will actually be. databases store lots of info, and they get complicated pretty quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thedarkavenger Posted May 10, 2003 Share Posted May 10, 2003 wow, this has been a hot thread lately....i think winFS will be really cool when it comes out. i'm just worried about how fast it will actually be. databases store lots of info, and they get complicated pretty quickly. yes thats true but it will be no slower than the normal FAT saying this though its much faster to read a database than a list of 400 files. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superrcat Posted May 10, 2003 Share Posted May 10, 2003 Filesystems are databases. NTFS is a database. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Veteran Posted May 10, 2003 Veteran Share Posted May 10, 2003 yes, but winFS is totally different then NTFS. edit: darkavenger, how many posts have you had in the last ten mins on this thread alone? :whistle: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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