Learn a forum rule: Trolls and Trolling


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5. No Personal Attacks or Retaliation

Personal attacks such as instigating "flame bait", verbal abuse, mocking or sexist remarks of members in posts are not tolerated at Neowin. Such posts will be deleted on sight or moderated accordingly.

As above, if you are a long standing member, act like one. Lead by example and assist other newer members rather than attacking them. Members that reply to posts simply to instigate argument will be warned / suspended from forum areas.

Q. What is a troll?

A. A troll is someone who will state something only with the intention of stirring up controversy.

Q. What is trolling?

A. Trolling is the art of taking a civilized discussion and turning it into a battleground through the use of over-the-top opinions or unverified claims that incite others. It can also be called "flame baiting" since the practice often is intended to get other members to respond emotionally with personal attacks.

Q. Why doesn't Neowin like trolling?

A. Trolling causes two problems. 1) Members get annoyed when their civilized discussion takes a sudden IQ nosedive. 2) It creates work for our moderating staff.

Q. Doesn't Neowin want to hear our opinions?

A. Yes, we do, but we do ask members to be somewhat mature and respectful when posting for the overall health and welfare of the community. There's nothing inherently wrong with sharing even extreme or edgy options but we'd like to see it done properly (a little logic and reasoning combined with some maturity and respectfulness).

Q. Don't you issue warning for trolling?

A. Trolling statements that are successful enough to result in flames will likely result in warning level increases for both the troll and for the person(s) who replied with personal attacks. Other than that, each situation would need to be considered individually.

Q. Why does trolling seem inconsistent on Neowin?

A. Slightly different thresholds may be applied in different areas of the site. We really, really do not like to see support threads where members ask a technical question about a specific problem involving a particular browser or operating system and somebody trolls the thread with his opinion of which browser/OS is the best. There may be a time and a place for that opinion (even on Neowin) but it certainly doesn't belong in a support thread where somebody is asking for help on a very specific situation. Members will stop asking for help, and indeed use other forums, if their technical support questions get hijacked with inane sub-conversations. Above all else, do not use technical support threads to continue personal vendettas against certain platforms.

Q. If I see a troll what should I do?

A. The #1 thing to remember is "Do not feed the troll" as this will only increase the amount of cleaning that our staff will need to do. If you reciprocate in any way, you may end up with a warning yourself, even if you end up reporting the post afterward. The best course of action is to use the report button so that our staff can contain it before it gets ugly.

n.b.

Please do not use this thread to discuss previous warnings. Send a PM to a Supervisor if you need more than general information. Also, do not use this thread to publicly identify potential Neowin trolls. If members fail to heed this advice then this thread will be closed and/or cleaned as necessary. Thank you.

  • Thanks 1
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Can the same anti-troll rules be enforced on Neowin IRC as well please? While things have improved after some culprits were banned there are still certain users - they know who they are, as do staff - whose trolling is downright annoying.

Is calling someone a troll, a personal attack?

It could be. Context is always important. It is one the few words where the truth might set you free.

Other personal attacks, like calling someone an asshat/hole, is going to get you a warning even if we, as moderators, (privately) agree that the other member is one.

Edited by Fred Derf

Can the same anti-troll rules be enforced on Neowin IRC as well please? While things have improved after some culprits were banned there are still certain users - they know who they are, as do staff - whose trolling is downright annoying.

This (Y)

Can the same anti-troll rules be enforced on Neowin IRC as well please? While things have improved after some culprits were banned there are still certain users - they know who they are, as do staff - whose trolling is downright annoying.

I did not have IRC in mind when I created this thread so you would have to discuss those matters with the chat mods. I, personally, tend to concentrate on the forums.

Thanks, Fred...that's exactly what I wanted to read :p

J/K, it's nice to have a reminder every now and then. Good job, Fred! :cool:

Can the same anti-troll rules be enforced on Neowin IRC as well please? While things have improved after some culprits were banned there are still certain users - they know who they are, as do staff - whose trolling is downright annoying.

+1

this is the main reason why i dont frequent the irc channel

Ok so trolling is not allowed? But flame bait is :devil: ?

No!

No Personal Attacks or Retaliation

Personal attacks such as instigating "flame bait", verbal abuse, mocking or sexist remarks of members in posts are not tolerated at Neowin. Such posts will be deleted on sight or moderated accordingly.

As above, if you are a long standing member, act like one. Lead by example and assist other newer members rather than attacking them. Members that reply to posts simply to instigate argument will be warned / suspended from forum areas.

Neowin Community Rules

The unfortunate thing is "troll" is just the word people use for "that person that has a different opinion to mine" now. The number of times I have read a thread here and found people referring to others as trolls just because they have a difference of opinion is astounding.

Please do not use this thread to discuss previous warnings. Send a PM to a Supervisor if you need more than general information. Also, do not use this thread to publicly identify potential Neowin trolls. If members fail to heed this advice then this thread will be closed and/or cleaned as necessary. Thank you.

[Thread Cleaned]

The unfortunate thing is "troll" is just the word people use for "that person that has a different opinion to mine" now. The number of times I have read a thread here and found people referring to others as trolls just because they have a difference of opinion is astounding.

No, there is the opinion, which is typically fair enough, but a troll is usually obvious to spot, and will write something out of the ordinary to bring about responses to it. They will do this on purpose, and it can usually be noticed quite easily in comparison.

We may have a right to report them but it's a waste of time seeing as you just ignore it

All thats needed there is a little common-sense. Why report it to me when you know full well I hardly ever participate in #neowin when there are other staff and Supervisors present and interacting in the #neowin channel?

Would you report it to Daniel, Redmak or Frogboy as well, who also never participate in #neowin?

Come on!

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    • Removed the blue and underline as you did not post a link. This would also  be considered spamming.
    • Why it's almost impossible to produce a smartphone in the United States by Hamid Ganji If you look at the back of some Apple products, you can see the famous phrase “Designed by Apple in California, Assembled in China.” This phrase appears on products from one of the largest smartphone brands in the United States. These products are designed in the U.S., but their manufacturing takes place in China, India, Vietnam, or even Brazil. But why can’t Apple, as one of the largest American tech companies, produce its iPhones on U.S. soil? The idea for this topic came to me after the Trump Foundation launched a smartphone called the T1 and claimed that it was designed and built with American values in mind. However, this claim did not last long, as it was revealed that Trump’s phone was actually a rebranded HTC U24 Pro, with only a gold case and minor internal component changes. You see? Even a phone that is supposed to represent American values is manufactured in China. With a gross domestic product (GDP) exceeding $32 trillion, the United States is currently the world’s largest economy, while China ranks second with around $20 trillion. On the other hand, the United States is by a wide margin the global leader in various technological fields, and American companies spend hundreds of billions of dollars annually on research and development. From Apple and Google to Microsoft, Lockheed Martin, Boeing, and others, American tech and industrial giants lead their foreign competitors in many sectors. The United States also has no shortage of smartphone brands. Apple, Google, and Motorola are among the major brands in the smartphone market, collectively holding a significant share. However, the vast majority of their products are manufactured outside the United States. So why is it that the world’s largest economy, home to the most advanced technology companies and industrial powers, cannot produce a smartphone on its own soil? Let’s explore this question together. Even threats to impose tariffs won’t work After Trump entered the White House as the 47th President of the United States, his administration adopted strict tariff policies. One of these policies was the imposition of a 25% tariff on smartphones manufactured outside the United States. Trump said he “had a little problem” with Apple CEO Tim Cook over producing smartphones outside the U.S. So he thought that threatening a 25% tax on imported phones might force Apple to bring manufacturing back to the United States. “I have long ago informed Tim Cook of Apple that I expect their iPhones that will be sold in the United States of America will be manufactured and built in the United States, not India, or anyplace else,” Trump wrote on Truth Social. Image via The White House Although Apple currently manufactures some of the iPhone’s chips in the United States with TSMC's help, it still shows no willingness to shift full iPhone production to the country. At the time, renowned Apple supply chain analyst Ming-Chi Kuo wrote on X, “In terms of profitability, it’s way better for Apple to take the hit of a 25% tariff on iPhones sold in the US market than to move iPhone assembly lines back to the US.” However, manufacturing a smartphone in the United States is not as easy as it might seem, and many technical and economic barriers are involved. The lack of necessary manufacturing hubs There is a clear reason why many companies prefer to manufacture their products in China. China has established itself as the main global manufacturing hub for international companies, and over the past few decades, large contract manufacturers have emerged there, allowing companies like Apple to outsource production. One such example is Foxconn, which also manufactures some Apple products in India. Building the infrastructure required to produce smartphones in the United States would require tens of billions of dollars in new investment. Factories would need to be built, essential manufacturing equipment would have to be installed, and, most importantly, a skilled workforce capable of operating these systems would need to be recruited and trained. The United States currently lacks the core infrastructure needed to manufacture smartphones, and for this reason, many companies prefer to outsource production to Chinese contractors rather than spend tens of billions of dollars to build that infrastructure, which is significantly more economically efficient. Additionally, building such infrastructure in the United States could take up to a decade, ultimately leading to a significant increase in the product's final price for consumers. Shortage of trained labor in the U.S. compared to China Decades of serving as a global manufacturing hub have allowed China to build a massive talent pool in the production sector that is almost unmatched worldwide. Today, if a company chooses to manufacture its products in China, it can be confident that the workers involved in production have years of experience in their respective roles and are capable of producing high-quality goods with minimal errors. Even if we assume that tens of billions of dollars were invested in building smartphone manufacturing infrastructure in the United States, finding skilled workers would remain highly challenging. Apple CEO Tim Cook visiting the iPhone 6 assembly line in China in 2014. Image: Tim Cook on X In a 2015 interview on CBS’s 60 Minutes, Tim Cook said the main reason Apple isn’t producing in the US is a lack of skills. "China put an enormous focus on manufacturing, in what you and I would call vocational kind of skills. The US over time began to stop having as many vocational kinds of skills. I mean you could take every tool and die maker in the United States and probably put them in the room that we're currently sitting in. In China you would have to have multiple football fields,” Cook said. Also, in 2017, at the Fortune Global Forum in Guangzhou, Cook once again emphasized the importance of highly skilled Chinese workers. “China has moved into very advanced manufacturing, so you find in China the intersection of craftsman kind of skill, and sophisticated robotics and the computer science world. That intersection, which is very rare to find anywhere, that kind of skill, is very important to our business because of the precision and quality level that we like. The thing that most people focus on if they’re a foreigner coming to China is the size of the market, and obviously, it’s the biggest market in the world in so many areas. But for us, the number one attraction is the quality of the people,” Apple CEO said. Higher labor costs in the United States Producing almost any product in the United States is more expensive than in many other countries, and one of the main reasons is the higher cost of labor in the U.S. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, median weekly earnings of full-time workers in the United States were $1,235 in the first quarter of 2026. Meanwhile, the average annual salary in China's private sector in 2025 was RMB 71,590 (US$9,961). In many parts of the world, the weekly wage of an American worker is equivalent to several months of income. Another important factor to consider is that in the United States, the workforce capable of working on a smartphone assembly line is highly specialized and therefore commands higher-than-average wages. According to an estimate by Bank of America, producing an iPhone in the U.S. is technically possible, but “iPhone cost can increase 25% purely on higher labor cost in the U.S.” However, this 25% increase applies only if final assembly is performed in the United States while components are still sourced from China or elsewhere. In this case, the price of a base iPhone would rise from $799 to around $1,000. But in another scenario, if Apple were to produce the required components for the iPhone within the United States, production costs could increase by more than 90%. Trump’s dream for a “Made in the USA” iPhone might never come true In a free-market capitalist economy, one of the primary responsibilities of any CEO is to maximize profit. Using Apple as an example, Tim Cook’s role is to maximize the company’s profits so that it can fund research and development for new products and invest in areas such as artificial intelligence, while also keeping shareholders satisfied. Therefore, it is entirely understandable that Apple would choose not to bring its manufacturing back to the United States and instead keep production in countries where labor is cheaper, and products can be manufactured at a lower cost, thereby maximizing its profit margins. What is your opinion about manufacturing smartphones in the United States? If you are an American citizen, would you be willing to pay hundreds of dollars more for a smartphone made domestically in the USA? Let us know in the comments.
    • Cheers everyone for the replies. It's been very useful. 👍
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