NVIDIA: Newest beta drivers beat AMD's Mantle in some cases

AMD has been talking a lot lately about their new Mantle graphics API, which they claim offers better performance for the PC games that support it and run on the company's Radeon chips. Today, NVIDIA fired back with a new beta driver for its GeForce cards, claiming that its performance actually beats Mantle in the three games that use the API.

At the moment, only three PC games support the Mantle API and drivers; Battlefield 4, Thief and the free Star Swarm demo. Today's release of the NVIDIA GeForce 337.50 beta drivers comes with this claim from the company:

Compared to our competitor’s new, much-discussed API, our testing found the combination of the new 337.50 Beta drivers, and DirectX 11, to offer a faster experience with suitably-matched hardware, as found in enthusiast systems:

 

NVIDIA offers a graph showing what they claim are the benchmarks for the three AMD Mantle API PC games compared to those same titles running under NVIDIA's 377.50 beta drivers and the current 335.23 version. The graph shows that the frame rates for those games under the NVIDIA drivers are ahead of those with AMD and Radeon with a GeForce GTX 780 Ti graphics card. The new beta drivers are also supposed to boost performance in a number of other DirectX 11 based PC games by as much as 71 percent, depending on the game and hardware.

NVIDIA also released version 2.0 of its GeForce Experience software, which was made to automatically optimize PC game settings. The new version allows for live footage of PC games to be captured and/or streamed on windowed games, borderless windowed games, and from the desktop. It also allows for gameplay footage to be captured on notebooks that have NVIDIA Kepler and Maxwell based mobile GTX GPUs.

Source: NVIDIA | Image via NVIDIA

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Mantle is irrelevant now with dx12 coming and only 2 Mantle title now. I mean pc gaming world is not console world, people have the hardware, even à crappy 150$ cpu is better than what the new console have in term of cpu and run fast even without Mantle. It help the laptop, but most laptop have piss poor gpus in them.

Competition is always good so it's Nice to see the free performance, my low minimum fps have boosted a little so im happy

alwaysonacoffebreak said,
Only 2 mantel titles? Errr. The whole frostbite engine uses it, same goes for cryengine - any game created with those will automatically take use of Mantle.


You mean like how every UE2 and 3 engine allows you to chose between DX and OGL?

Not they don't automatically take advantage of it. They CAN if the developer chooses to.

At stock speeds the 780ti beats the 290x at 1080p with or without mantle which is why its priced like £100 more. The 6core Intel wont be the bottleneck, neither is a quadcore i7 so putting it on that system is stupid. Mantle is primarily for lower end CPUs or multiple gpus would of bin nice to see the performance on 2-3x gpu setups cus that would cause the CPU to be the bottleneck

HawkMan said,
Nice sources

Better than yours if you cant even understand what hw mantle is supposed to help.

Like I said, this is just an marketing stunt, anyone reading up on mantle knows its not supposed to bring ultimate power to high end hw but supposed to help with low end.

alwaysonacoffebreak said,

Better than yours if you cant even understand what hw mantle is supposed to help.

Like I said, this is just an marketing stunt, anyone reading up on mantle knows its not supposed to bring ultimate power to high end hw but supposed to help with low end.


I know what HW it's supposed to help. That doesn't mean you can make a statement that it's been debunked without sources, debunked by who, how... Where...

And just because mantle is supposed to helped hardware where the CPU is the bottleneck doesn't debunk this, which is a test done with high end gamer hardware to show that those building high end gaming rigs don't need to be tricked into the mantle hype.

alwaysonacoffebreak said,

What am I? Google for you? Open extremetech and read away.

Umm you're the one who throws around undocumented claims, it's not my job to document your claims. I just asked you to document yours, I didn't even make any counter claims, yet that video I SOURCED shows that the driver gives significant improvements, on the level of what mantle offers, and that on mid range HW.

alwaysonacoffebreak said,
Oh I'm sorry.

http://www.extremetech.com/gam...nufacturer-provided-numbers

Here.

This also won't be the first time Nvidia has tried these shady tacticts to actually gain something. I don't have enough time to find the links but I hope you can find them yourself this time.

Meanwhile other people like the guy in the YouTube video are getting significant performance increases. He want from lower end graphics without msaa to ultra AND got higher frame rate.

HawkMan said,

Meanwhile other people like the guy in the YouTube video are getting significant performance increases. He want from lower end graphics without msaa to ultra AND got higher frame rate.

While 3 biggest review sites call nvidias bs. I'll take their words on a youtuber any day.

This is good. I've been an NVIDIA user almost my entire life. I started with 3DFx and jumped to NVIDIA right after the first Geforce. The only Geforce generation I skipped and went with the Radeon 9600 XT instead, was the Geforce 5 series. Those were awful.

It has a problem loading with Hyper-V or VT-x enabled, you can disable either one if you are not using them, or downgrade and wait for a fix from NVIDIA.

oh so nvidia beats an unfinished API? say it ain't so! or why don't they wait until is finished to start making biased benchs? it's more valid..

nVidia did not beat anything until proper tests are done by 3rd party sites.

Also the 780 TI is naturally Stronger than 290x. To "beat" mantle the difference between Mantle and the new drivers will need to be as much as the difference between amd direct x and old nVidia drivers.

LaP said,
nVidia did not beat anything until proper tests are done by 3rd party sites.

Also the 780 TI is naturally Stronger than 290x. To "beat" mantle the difference between Mantle and the new drivers will need to be as much as the difference between amd direct x and old nVidia drivers.

lol i forgot the /s tag...

Praetor said,
oh so nvidia beats an unfinished API? say it ain't so! or why don't they wait until is finished to start making biased benchs? it's more valid..

Beta drivers vs unfinished APIs.. fair contest? :D

ZipZapRap said,

Beta drivers vs unfinished APIs.. fair contest? :D

well, considering the quality of beta drivers by nvidia, i'll say that Mantle had the advantage in there.

It's a very low profit deal. Gpu is not made by amd anymore, they design the chip, and Sony /ms fab it. I know that was the case for xbox360

Enron said,
I wish the Xbox One had an Nvidia GTX in it.
Why? Microsoft and Sony chose AMD for a good reason. AMD has the experience in making an x86 SoC. All NVIDIA does for the most part is make GPUs and that's just one piece of the SoC. They can't make an x86 SoC.

Master of Earth said,

Nvidia fanboy that clearly still need to grow up.

That's not a very nice thing to say.

- Sent from my Nvidia GTX Titan

Whatever they say, the XBox 360, One, the PS4 contain an AMD GPU so this is a desperate cry not to be left out, again!

Who cares if they both contain AMD GPU if they are currently getting As wipped by Nvidia. AMD needs to step it up or just like the fell behind to Intel they will fall behind Nviidia.

AMD's strong side is power-efficiency and the integrated GPU's. nVidia has always been the strongest when it comes to dedicated graphics (and drivers for them).

Melfster said,
Who cares if they both contain AMD GPU if they are currently getting As wipped by Nvidia. AMD needs to step it up or just like the fell behind to Intel they will fall behind Nviidia.

I am sure game developers will optimise for NVIDIA instead of AMD, then go through hell to port the game through the 3 platforms.

Melfster said,
Who cares if they both contain AMD GPU if they are currently getting As wipped by Nvidia. AMD needs to step it up or just like the fell behind to Intel they will fall behind Nviidia.
Think about price for one moment. NVIDIA's cards are usually more expensive. AMD's strength is cost efficiency. If you want the best of the best in terms of performance while ignoring cost, then NVIDIA is the best option.

Notice that they had to use a Core i7-3960X? That's precisely the kind of processor that Mantle doesn't help, i.e. an insanely expensive high-end processor. Mantle is supposed to fix up things for much more modest hardware.

bbbl67 said,
Notice that they had to use a Core i7-3960X? That's precisely the kind of processor that Mantle doesn't help, i.e. an insanely expensive high-end processor. Mantle is supposed to fix up things for much more modest hardware.

Yes, kind of...

It does like more cores, and yes it is designed to help compensate for the slow per core speed of the AMD CPUs.

However in context, NVidia could have ran this test on an AMD CPU and probably gotten the same performance advantage.

Your idea about Mantle seems to be incorrect. Nvidia's result is surprising because Mantle is supposed to accelerate performance through more efficient use of multiple-cores, among other factors in the speedup of course (like eliminating certain steps).

The point is, Nvidia's comparison is good, because Mantle should benefit from the extra cores more than DX11.

Now, the high end processor has excellent single threaded performance - but if that's the factor, then a cheap i5 will get you similar single threaded performance. It's possible that NVidia is winning by relying on single threaded performance, which is in fact available at a lower price than the fancy chip.

Finally, keep in mind that Mantle really is focused on good multi-threaded performance, since AMD's processors significantly lag Intel in single threaded performance, they want to do the best with what they've got.

In this context, it's clear that NVidia's drivers matching efficiency gains from Mantle, is an impressive feat. Especially considering that porting from DX11 to Mantle requires significant code development, while updating the drivers does not require any (from you or the developers).

Mantle reduces bottlenecks on CPUs.. If the GPU is the bottleneck it does not help as much. With high end CPUs it will see minimal gains but on medium and low end CPUs it will see the largest gains.

a1ien said,
Your idea about Mantle seems to be incorrect. Nvidia's result is surprising because Mantle is supposed to accelerate performance through more efficient use of multiple-cores, among other factors in the speedup of course (like eliminating certain steps).

The point is, Nvidia's comparison is good, because Mantle should benefit from the extra cores more than DX11.

Now, the high end processor has excellent single threaded performance - but if that's the factor, then a cheap i5 will get you similar single threaded performance. It's possible that NVidia is winning by relying on single threaded performance, which is in fact available at a lower price than the fancy chip.

Finally, keep in mind that Mantle really is focused on good multi-threaded performance, since AMD's processors significantly lag Intel in single threaded performance, they want to do the best with what they've got.

In this context, it's clear that NVidia's drivers matching efficiency gains from Mantle, is an impressive feat. Especially considering that porting from DX11 to Mantle requires significant code development, while updating the drivers does not require any (from you or the developers).

Mantle aims to improve performance by decreasing CPU overhead. A weaker CPU has more CPU overhead which limits the performance of the video card. For this reason, Mantle would provide little to no performance improvements with an ultra high-end CPU. What NVIDIA did here is, for the most part, GPU optimization. It's possible that AMD can do the same thing with Mantle or with their DX11 drivers. We'll just have to wait and see.

Mobius Enigma said,

Yes, kind of...

It does like more cores, and yes it is designed to help compensate for the slow per core speed of the AMD CPUs.

However in context, NVidia could have ran this test on an AMD CPU and probably gotten the same performance advantage.

Only on an AMD CPU fast enough that a single core iisn't getting maxed out by the games.

HawkMan said,

Only on an AMD CPU fast enough that a single core iisn't getting maxed out by the games.

Most mainstream AMD CPUs do get maxed out and saturated more than users realize.

This is why I recommend people consider carefully the important of single thread/core performance.


This is one good site to use as a starting point for single thread/core metrics:
http://www.cpubenchmark.net/singleThread.html

(Notice how far down in this list you have to go before AMD CPUs appear. A good dual core i3 w/HT can and will outperform the fastest AMD CPU depending on how efficiently the core are used, even in gaming. Even with good threading, the single execution speed is still important as many operations of OSes and Software cannot be threaded.)

Mobius Enigma said,

Most mainstream AMD CPUs do get maxed out and saturated more than users realize.

This is why I recommend people consider carefully the important of single thread/core performance.


This is one good site to use as a starting point for single thread/core metrics:
http://www.cpubenchmark.net/singleThread.html

(Notice how far down in this list you have to go before AMD CPUs appear. A good dual core i3 w/HT can and will outperform the fastest AMD CPU depending on how efficiently the core are used, even in gaming. Even with good threading, the single execution speed is still important as many operations of OSes and Software cannot be threaded.)

Granted OS and software have all become better and better at utilizing proper multthreading and utilizing multi core CPUs today and it's only getting better. As such it's rare it's going to be an issue. Especially when you compare price as well.

Also turning off HT will give better single threaded performance. With as many real cores as CPUs today have, HT don't make as much sense except in a few rare situations.

Mr.XXIV said,
But I'm a Nvidia fan. Get it?

FAN

Oh you couldn't get it, cause I wasn't loud enough.

OH OK I get it now. Siri about that!

Enron said,
If this is true, AMD just got Dis-Mantled.

Quick look at NCIX here in Canada

780 ti ~ $739 to 869 CDN..
290x ~ $599 to 699 CDN

Enron said,
If this is true, AMD just got Dis-Mantled.

Not entirely true. Those Nvidia drivers won't significantly push weaker processors such as i3 to a playable frame rate if it's around 20 Fps as opposed to Mantle that really optimize wide range of CPU whether it's high end or low end. So it's not surprised that they have to use a i7 3960X that is not even remotely close from a perspective of price performance ratio for gaming. So it's kinda dopey to take that drivers as a comparison.

The reason is becausethe low level mantle optimized the threaign allowing the CPU and GPU to use all the cores optimally, like how MS demonstrated with DX12.

but these systems are coupled with a high end CPU as well, probably the highest end i7(which isn't necessary for a gaming system anyway) which means that no game is even close to maxing out even one core on the CPU. so the cpu isn't bottlenecking the GPU anyway.