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Game devs hating Windows 8?


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#1 Alladaskill17

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 19:45

I would like to understand why the front page for example, has an article about id's John Carmack hating Windows 8, and recent articles about Valve's Newell discussing Windows 8 pushing him to Linux due to its openness. What exactly did Microsoft do in Windows 8 to **** off people of importance in the gaming sector to make it more restricted?

Sent from HTC Titan, apologies for spelling/grammar.


#2 TheExperiment

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 20:18

WinRT.

WinRT will make them get new dev tools, and currently devs using WinRT must publish through the store, as far as I know you can't publish elsewhere yet. If this is true I suspect it's because the installer code isn't ready yet, considering it's new tech.

Other than that from what I understand the Start Screen frustrates devs because when you install Visual Studio it puts around 40 icons right in there.

I'm sure there are other reasons of course. It's the most disruptive (to the user, not applications) OS in a while and Win7 is still fantastic.

#3 Michael Winkler

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 20:29

I think it has to do with the introduction of the Windows Store that comes with Windows 8.

It is a direct competition to Valve's Steam system, because it also delivers games directly to Windows users. But with the Windows Store, Microsoft wants to make some money. So if Valve wanted to distribute games through that store as well, they would have much lower margins, because otherwise the games would be too expensive for people.

On a Windows RT tablet the Windows Store will be the only way to purchase and download games. Therefore Valve and other game companies don't have a choice but to use the Store if they want to support those tablets.

But I don't think Linux is the answer for that!
Would you switch from Windows to Linux, just because some game companies stop producing for Windows and switch to Linux? No, you'd probably just use the Playstation or XBox you most likely already have. Why use a Linux machine that is too complicated to handle as a gaming platform, when you could just use a console that was made for this kind of thing and is very easy to use?

#4 OP Alladaskill17

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 21:57

I think it has to do with the introduction of the Windows Store that comes with Windows 8.

It is a direct competition to Valve's Steam system, because it also delivers games directly to Windows users. But with the Windows Store, Microsoft wants to make some money. So if Valve wanted to distribute games through that store as well, they would have much lower margins, because otherwise the games would be too expensive for people.

On a Windows RT tablet the Windows Store will be the only way to purchase and download games. Therefore Valve and other game companies don't have a choice but to use the Store if they want to support those tablets.

But I don't think Linux is the answer for that!
Would you switch from Windows to Linux, just because some game companies stop producing for Windows and switch to Linux? No, you'd probably just use the Playstation or XBox you most likely already have. Why use a Linux machine that is too complicated to handle as a gaming platform, when you could just use a console that was made for this kind of thing and is very easy to use?

So it's not like Microsoft is restricting currently available resources or files within the OS? Just making it more competitive?

#5 Riva

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 22:04

First of all its John Callaham so his article has to turn everything negative against Microsoft (even if that's not the case). Second of all they hate Windows 8 since there is a store from where you are intended to buy games and that means competitive pricing and fees going to Microsoft. Apart from that Windows 8 performs way better than Windows 7 in every aspect which should be good news for gamers if you can take the bite with the new start panel which really isn't that a major issue. Also the rumours of the ability to play Xbox games directly on Windows 8 will slowly kill their crap shops. So Windows 8 is all great for gamers but is competitive for those studios that decided to have their own shop. Also interesting is the fact that nobody supported their arguments with anything solid, they just stated they hate windows 8 just to create a negative vibe (just like John Callaham :p)

#6 PGHammer

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 22:04

WinRT.

WinRT will make them get new dev tools, and currently devs using WinRT must publish through the store, as far as I know you can't publish elsewhere yet. If this is true I suspect it's because the installer code isn't ready yet, considering it's new tech.

Other than that from what I understand the Start Screen frustrates devs because when you install Visual Studio it puts around 40 icons right in there.

I'm sure there are other reasons of course. It's the most disruptive (to the user, not applications) OS in a while and Win7 is still fantastic.


So write Win32 games instead. They still work just fine; they just won't work in WindowsRT. And, just for your info, Win32 games *still* work in Windows 8.

Writing WinRT apps/games is, in fact, no different approach-wise than writing apps/games for iOS or Android - you're still forced to pass through specific portals (either the Android Market or Amazon AppStore for Android, or the iOS AppStore for iOS), what's all the fuss *really* about?

In fact, here's a rather surprising factoid that absolutely positively undercuts Gabe Newell's portion of the criticism - I selected Age of Empires Online from the Windows 8 RTM Store, and it promptly directed me to - surprise, surprise - install Steam.

#7 Deihmos

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 22:06

I think it has more to do with the tablet UI.

#8 Stoffel

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 22:15

I really don't understand the problem. They can still develop for Win8 just like they did for Win7. Only if they want their app to run on WinRT they have to sell it through the Windows Store. No different if they want to develop for Android or iOS. So I guess it's just standard MS hatred. (For some reason I can't use Enter when i'm posting on Neowin, so sorry for the bad layout)

#9 PGHammer

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 22:20

I think it has more to do with the tablet UI.


So how would that normally impact Win32 games on Windows 8? Win32 games still launch from desktop shortcuts (or are pinnable to the Taskbar) just as is the case with Windows 7 - the only change will be for those that are used to the Start menu for launching games (which certainly doesn't describe most gamers that I know - most gamers that I know launch from desktop shortcuts).

Why does it seem to me like someone is trying to create an isue where there isn't one?

I really don't understand the problem. They can still develop for Win8 just like they did for Win7. Only if they want their app to run on WinRT they have to sell it through the Windows Store. No different if they want to develop for Android or iOS. So I guess it's just standard MS hatred. (For some reason I can't use Enter when i'm posting on Neowin, so sorry for the bad layout)


The issue is, in fact, unique to IE10 - I don't have it with Firefox or Waterfox. You can tell which browser I used to post with for that reason.

#10 Yusuf M.

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 22:29

If you watch the John Carmack keynote, you'll know why he said he'd be happy if Windows 8 didn't exist. He said it because he's happy with Windows 7 and there's nothing he's looking forward to in Windows 8. I'm sure many of you know that game developers are resistant to change. It makes their job harder if they have to learn to do something differently and it usually adds time to a project. The developers at id Software stuck with Windows XP up until the release of Windows 7. They didn't jump to Windows Vista immediately because they didn't need to. It looks like the same thing is happening again.

To me, that doesn't make it seem like he hates Windows 8. And any game id Software develops for Windows 7 will work properly in Windows 8.

#11 dr_crabman

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 22:35

I would like to understand why the front page for example, has an article about id's John Carmack hating Windows 8


He doesn't. The article and especially the headline are extremely misleading and that you fell for it should tell Neowin to up their quality standards for news on the frontpage. It's getting ridiculous.

#12 PGHammer

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 22:44

If you watch the John Carmack keynote, you'll know why he said he'd be happy if Windows 8 didn't exist. He said it because he's happy with Windows 7 and there's nothing he's looking forward to in Windows 8. I'm sure many of you know that game developers are resistant to change. It makes their job harder if they have to learn to do something differently and it usually adds time to a project. The developers at id Software stuck with Windows XP up until the release of Windows 7. They didn't jump to Windows Vista immediately because they didn't need to. It looks like the same thing is happening again.

To me, that doesn't make it seem like he hates Windows 8. And any game id Software develops for Windows 7 will work properly in Windows 8.


Exactly, Anaron.

I've been pointing out *exactly that* since the Developer Preview arrived. Win32 games work the same way - so do Win32 *applications* pretty much.

I called this *don't want to move* syndrome in an earlier thread I kicked off on this very forum (The Real Reason Behind the FUD About Windows 8) and aparently even developers can suffer from it as well.

#13 nMIK-3

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 22:49

For WinRT devices such as Tablets, game developers just need to deal with it and simply follow Microsoft guidance. Is exactly the same with whats going on with Apple's iOS and I do not see them complaining regarding that.

Second, is not like WinRT is taking x86/64 machines by tomorrow, that will take many years to happen and until then, everything in that environment works the same as it is today.
Because of that Valve should be really happy. I was really expecting Microsoft with Windows 8 to re-brand and completely replace "Games for Windows" platform with "Xbox Live for PC". Open up a fully complete online store for digital downloads with games from all major PC Game Studios, similar to Steam store, offer all XBOX amazing capabilities (that games for windows lacked to deliver besides your XBOX game profile and achievements) such as high quality of communication between gamers and online connectivity, use SkyDrive to Sync Saves so you can continue your game on another machine etc. Meanwhile the whole process if happen will be tightly connected with your Microsoft account, that will lead to a direct hit to piracy, exactly the same way it currently works with XBOX Live for consoles, Sony's PSN, and Steam accounts.

Nothing from the above happened so far. So for some really strange reason Microsoft is currently leaving Valve to rule the x86/64 PC game market! So unless the above is secretly coming, and Microsoft haven't announce it yet but somehow Valve is aware of it existence, then yes, I completely understand their concerns because it will be a matter of time for people to move from Steam to XBOX for PC platform, as their Microsoft Accounts which also represent their XBOX Profile is sooooo close connected and integrated with Windows 8.

Otherwise they need to be really really happy with whats going on in Windows 8 currently. From my point of view and as you can see from what I wrote, Microsoft is doing them a favor, that they haven't seriously integrated yet their super successful XBOX brand/capabilities with their Windows OS.

PS. Please do not take this post and turn it out to a debate of which platform is better or worst between Steam and Games for Windows.

#14 Sheza

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 23:02

DPC Latency anyone?

#15 thommcg

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 23:22

Developers invariably initially hate every new version of something they are forced to work with.



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