106 posts in this topic

Posted

So I did a yaourt -Syu --aur as usual just now, it found a LOT that needed upgrading which I thought was odd, but I went with it.

Rebooted to a GDM with a mouse pointer and no login box. Looked using links in a getty session to see that they've purposefully dropped support for initscripts so you need to enable systemd for any GUI to work but didn't bother to let anyone know. So I enabled the systemd init line, reboot and woo, displays working. Pathetic how they're purposefully dropping initscripts support really. Like a child spitting out their dummy.

Login to hear the darn 'POP' noise I spent considerable effort getting rid of previously is back (effort because I still want the volume up and down sounds). See everythings basically been reset, the new gnome settings dialogue is disgusting and must be for people on an 8000x8000 display because the icons are so large. My rc.conf scripts are not being executed as the wiki says they should be so I've got to start them manually (having cpupower set to powersave governer). My keyboard selection in the top right has just vanished. I'll admit the bug of volume up/down keys not working HAS been fixed! :D but the volume control in the top right has no picture, clicking on it and changing volume using the wheel allows me to change volume one step per 5 seconds or so, what the hell? Time widget has reset to default too, and farenheight? Who the hell uses that old awkward system?

NAUTILUS! What the **** has happened to this, it looks like I've accidently booted to mac somehow, completely uncustomisable and looks just awful, where the hell have my folders on the left gone?

Desktop icons have all been shifted, 'computer' icon has vanished. And the system stats icons in the bottom right now have stupid gray borders round them.

I don't know if the arch team just didn't test this at all or if they've changed things and not bothered to tell people or what, but god it's a mess. I'd really recommend new linux users or heck even experienced linux users wanting to try something new stay the hell away from arch, it's gone downhill lately.

Anyone else updated and got a hash of a system or whatnot?

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Posted

So let me get this straight, you ran a system update, did not check up what was actually in this update, just ran with it because it was there. and then they changed something that messed up your system, and it's their fault ?

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Posted

So let me get this straight, you ran a system update, did not check up what was actually in this update, just ran with it because it was there. and then they changed something that messed up your system, and it's their fault ?

'Did not check what was in the update' - the usual was in the update, kernel, gnome, iptables, iproute, python, firefox, qt, timezones, etc.

And yeah it is their fault, https://www.archlinux.org/news/consolekit-replaced-by-logind/ because they want to be ###### for some reason. I can understand why they only want to concentrate on systemd but to remove a fully working rc script is just being pathetic.

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Posted

the usual and checking that they upgraded the kernel version and other high level updates without checking what they actually did does not mean you checked what was in the update.

Honestly, this is your fault, just like it would be the server admins fault if he went to windows update and saw "oh look a new update that updates the network stack and a new exchange version" and runs the update, without seeing that the network update is not compatible with their hardware, completely cutting off the network, ok finally fixing thatm now none of their clients can connect to exchange, oh yeah, that fancy new version, not compatible with their old clients.

You saw a new version and decided to update, you did not check what was actually changed in this update, and it broke your system. your fault.

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Posted

As far as I'm concerned if an update is pushed to the stable branch of any OS, it's the vendor's problem if it breaks the OS, not the user's. If an update can brake people's systems it should not be offered.

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Posted

I do use linux. and while Windows doesn't break things, you're not using windows are you, you're using linux, and you DID NOT check what the update actually did. whatever branch you're on, it's YOUR responsibility to check that the update doesn't break your OS. just like admins on windows have to run all updates on test servers first.

You're the one who chose to use linux, and specifically arch linux, that makes it your responsibility to check what the updates do, regardless of how many lines of changelog you have to check. you can't push this problem onto the devs.

oh and HEY LOOK

https://www.archlinux.org/

the top news on the archlinux website. yeah I can see you did thorough research on what was in this update, and that finding out initscripts are no longer supported required very thorough reading of long change logs indeed....

As for helping with the issue. you're saying you don't want help you just want to whine, if you had gone to the site and read said news, you'd see they recommend migrating to systemd.

personally I would recommend you migrate to Ubuntu, that way you don't have to worry about such things and you don't have to complaint hat the devs change stuff to make your life hard.

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Posted

End of initscripts support

2012-11-04

As systemd is now the default init system, Arch Linux is receiving minimal testing on initscripts systems. Due to a lack of resources and interest, we are unlikely to work on fixinginitscripts-specific bugs, and may close them as WONTFIX.

We therefore strongly encourage all users to migrate to systemd as soon as possible. See the systemd migration guide.

To ease the transition, initscripts support will remain in the official repositories for the time being, unless otherwise stated. As of January 2013, we will start removing initscripts support (e.g., rc scripts) from individual packages without further notice.

ConsoleKit replaced by logind

2012-10-30

With GNOME 3.6, polkit and networkmanager moving to [extra], ConsoleKit has now been removed from the repositories. Any package that previously depended on it now relies on systemd-logind instead. That means that the system must be booted with systemd to be fully functional.

In addition to GNOME, both KDE and XFCE are also affected by this change.

This has been on the front page for a while now!

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Posted (edited)

Yeah exactly. This isn't the first time arch linux updates have broken systems either, there was a font one not long ago, then the /lib problem which broke LOADS of systems. One huge problem of this I think is that they don't use the package comments to tell people things, and those they do put there aren't communicated to the user until after it's been installed.

I like how sabayon linux does it personally, it's got security advisories, upgrade info and a message system give you warnings about problematic packages or upgrades or whatnot, just what I never really like about it though is for some reason when you updated, it'd drag in packages you didn't need or want. I remember it always dragged wireless drivers in, not just A wireless driver but about 3GB of them, plus ATI and Intel GFX drivers if you had an NVIDIA card! Hah.

"You're the one who chose to use linux, and specifically arch linux, that makes it your responsibility to check what the updates do, regardless of how many lines of changelog you have to check. you can't push this problem onto the devs."

Are you honestly still here? Didn't I tell you to go away?

"That means that the system must be booted with systemd to be fully functional."

Yes but https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Display_Manager#Loading_the_display_manager ! They never mentioned you had to enable the service on the front page :/

And I'm on systemd now anyway, I figured out the problem with cpupower not being loaded properly from it's rc.conf counterpart, systemd has it's own cpupower service which it runs and therefore ignores the rc.conf one.

Edited by n_K

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Posted

As far as I'm concerned if an update is pushed to the stable branch of any OS, it's the vendor's problem if it breaks the OS, not the user's. If an update can brake people's systems it should not be offered.

As he himself said, linux, specifically arch, doesn't work like that, updates are often pushed directly, not necessarily in only big updates. And as an arch user the system is your own responsibility, and checking up what updates can do is your responsibility. The update wasn't "pushed" on him, it was offered him, and he chose to upgrade without checking what was in the update at all, not even checking the archlinux webpage. I'm sure this was also pre-announced. Yep, it was. nearly a month ago it wwas pre announced that systemd was the default and intitscripts where going bye bye.

Are you honestly still here? Didn't I tell you to go away?

Wasn't aware that I had to do what you told me. sorry to have to tell you this, but this is a discussion forum, you came here to whine that you did a booboo and it was someone else's fault, I'm allowed to tell you it's actually your fault for running a linux distro that's to advanced for you and/or not reading up on changes.

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Posted

Not really relevant what the rationalisation for it is tbh, if an update is being pushed that break's people's setups it's the fault of the vendor not the user. You could spend a year preparing for it but if it was broken your preparation is still wasted time.

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Posted

I'm a novice Kubuntu user, but maybe you can just reinstall via terminal what they took out...or will this not work?

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Posted (edited)

Snipped

I'm a novice Kubuntu user, but maybe you can just reinstall via terminal what they took out...or will this not work?

Unfortunately not. I found one of the problems with the sound control, they've made the icon black so you can't see it, but the other bug with the mouse wheel on it is still present.

Edited by Marshall

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Posted

Not really relevant what the rationalisation for it is tbh, if an update is being pushed that break's people's setups it's the fault of the vendor not the user. You could spend a year preparing for it but if it was broken your preparation is still wasted time.

It's totally relevant, go to the front page and read what they say! You are expressly warned what is going to happen!!! The premiss that the new system is working on is completely different to the old one! What's so hard to understand about that? You are not not being forced to run the updates! These updates are not plugging holes for viruses and such nonsense, it's changing the system completely! You can't draw a parallel between windows updates and what Arch is busy doing here!

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Posted

Reasonable vendors don't push such massive changes in an update, they do it in a new version. If it's a potentially config breaking change it should NEVER be pushed as stable when it clearly is not. And as sick as I am of Windows 8 this is why Linux won't get taken seriously, you shouldn't have to be a complete nerd to update an OS without breaking it completely.

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Posted

"These updates are not plugging holes for viruses and such nonsense"

Erm, what? I think you'll find the firefox update patches security holes, etc. not every update on arch is to add new features. They keep updating filesystem but I don't see new features getting added to that.

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Posted

It's got nothing to do with being "reasonable" whatsoever, but whatever rocks your boat. Linux has been taken seriously for years so not really sure what you are trying to imply? What I think you should do is a get a better understanding what the difference is between updates that get pushed at you, and the ones that YOU choose to run. Anyway, that's me on the subject, good luck to the OP on getting his setup sorted.

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Posted

Reasonable vendors don't push such massive changes in an update, they do it in a new version. If it's a potentially config breaking change it should NEVER be pushed as stable when it clearly is not. And as sick as I am of Windows 8 this is why Linux won't get taken seriously, you shouldn't have to be a complete nerd to update an OS without breaking it completely.

He's running ARCH linux, not ubuntu, it's not a user friendly distro. It's a distro for those who want and can do a lot of technical stuff. They warned him that "we are removing this feature, YOU HAVE TO migrate to this other function or your system will break".

He did not pay attention to this and got burned. Remember Arch doesn't really have end users themselves, the users there, at least those who get it from Arch are more like OEM's. full windows licenses they get support from MS, with OEM licenses, the person/company who installs the OEM license, is responsible for all support. This is the same with Arch, they provide a linux distro, but it's up to the "user" to make it work and run, and keep up with the changes and understand what they mean.

They didn't break his system, he broke it by not following the guidelines and instructions they gave.

Snipped

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Posted

Snipped

"They didn't break his system, he broke it by not following the guidelines and instructions they gave."

Oh yeah I totally forgot having bugs in gnome volume applet, not telling people how to migrate gnome to systemd on front page, REMOVING the network setup information from the wiki for systemd and all the other problems is my fault.

I'm asking you one more time before I just add you to the ignore list -> GO AWAY.

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Posted

a Linux update completely breaking Linux?? You better post this on a Linux forum and warn people of this rare occasion.

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Posted

Arch is a technical oriented distro, its rolling release, and it sticks close to upstream. Its not a distro you can just update without paying attention, or you will 'break' it. Upstream has moved to systemd/logind. Consolekit isn't even maintained anymore, and the arch devs aren't going to fork/maintain it themselves. The only logical way forward for the arch devs was to switch to systemd, this has been discussed a million times in the arch forums and irc, and they had good reasons to switch. You should have seen this coming, its common knowledge arch is switching to systemd.

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Posted

Arch is a rolling release, do you understand what that means? Don't use a rolling release distro then. It is 'stable', OP just didn't read the news and make the required changes and just updated willy nilly. You can't do that in arch.

He's already been told this, and his response amount to, this shouldn't happen and you're a kid for telling me.

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Posted

Reasonable vendors don't push such massive changes in an update, they do it in a new version. If it's a potentially config breaking change it should NEVER be pushed as stable when it clearly is not. And as sick as I am of Windows 8 this is why Linux won't get taken seriously, you shouldn't have to be a complete nerd to update an OS without breaking it completely.

Arch is a technically oriented, 'bleeding edge' distro, and they don't pretend to be anything else, there are user friendly distros like ubuntu out there. Linux isn't 'not going to be taken seriously' because of arch. its a niche distro for technically minded people who want up to date upstream packages. This thread is ridiculous.

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Posted

"Arch is a technically oriented, 'bleeding edge' distro, and they don't pretend to be anything else, there are user friendly distros like ubuntu out there. Linux isn't 'not going to be taken seriously' because of arch. its a niche distro for technically minded people who want up to date upstream packages. This thread is ridiculous."

Yeah it is, and the bleeding-edge is in the TESTING repo as I've previously said, STABLE contains (supposidly) tested and confirmed working packages, if you think gnome-volume-applet being completely buggy with no icon and the mouse wheel not working should be in the STABLE branch, you've got a warped view.

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Posted

"Arch is a technically oriented, 'bleeding edge' distro, and they don't pretend to be anything else, there are user friendly distros like ubuntu out there. Linux isn't 'not going to be taken seriously' because of arch. its a niche distro for technically minded people who want up to date upstream packages. This thread is ridiculous."

Yeah it is, and the bleeding-edge is in the TESTING repo as I've previously said, STABLE contains (supposidly) tested and confirmed working packages, if you think gnome-volume-applet being completely buggy with no icon and the mouse wheel not working should be in the STABLE branch, you've got a warped view.

There's a difference between an update being unstable and an update requiring user intervention. OP updated a ton of packages without reading any of the news or wiki so it messed up his system.

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Posted (edited)

Systemd isn't unstable, its an update that REQUIRES USER INTERVENTION, because its a big change.

When did I say systemd is unstable? I said they haven't put on the main page about converting your system from initscripts to systemd properly, you've got to search the wiki/google throughly for the pages to set it up and once again THE PAGE WITH HOW TO SET UP STATIC NETWORKING USING SYSTEMD WAS REMOVED, EXPLAIN THAT....

Oh nice complete change of your comment there;

"There's a difference between an update being unstable and an update requiring user intervention. OP updated a ton of packages without reading any of the news or wiki so it messed up his system."

I did read it, it mentions "End of initscripts support" was not posted, "ConsoleKit replaced by logind" does NOT give any hints or tips or links to how to setup GNOME to use systemd, "systemd is now the default on new installations" Not relevent.

Edited by n_K

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