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What the hell has happened to arch linux?

arch linux terrible systemd

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#1 n_K

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 16:05

So I did a yaourt -Syu --aur as usual just now, it found a LOT that needed upgrading which I thought was odd, but I went with it.
Rebooted to a GDM with a mouse pointer and no login box. Looked using links in a getty session to see that they've purposefully dropped support for initscripts so you need to enable systemd for any GUI to work but didn't bother to let anyone know. So I enabled the systemd init line, reboot and woo, displays working. Pathetic how they're purposefully dropping initscripts support really. Like a child spitting out their dummy.

Login to hear the darn 'POP' noise I spent considerable effort getting rid of previously is back (effort because I still want the volume up and down sounds). See everythings basically been reset, the new gnome settings dialogue is disgusting and must be for people on an 8000x8000 display because the icons are so large. My rc.conf scripts are not being executed as the wiki says they should be so I've got to start them manually (having cpupower set to powersave governer). My keyboard selection in the top right has just vanished. I'll admit the bug of volume up/down keys not working HAS been fixed! :D but the volume control in the top right has no picture, clicking on it and changing volume using the wheel allows me to change volume one step per 5 seconds or so, what the hell? Time widget has reset to default too, and farenheight? Who the hell uses that old awkward system?
NAUTILUS! What the **** has happened to this, it looks like I've accidently booted to mac somehow, completely uncustomisable and looks just awful, where the hell have my folders on the left gone?
Desktop icons have all been shifted, 'computer' icon has vanished. And the system stats icons in the bottom right now have stupid gray borders round them.

I don't know if the arch team just didn't test this at all or if they've changed things and not bothered to tell people or what, but god it's a mess. I'd really recommend new linux users or heck even experienced linux users wanting to try something new stay the hell away from arch, it's gone downhill lately.

Anyone else updated and got a hash of a system or whatnot?


#2 HawkMan

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 16:21

So let me get this straight, you ran a system update, did not check up what was actually in this update, just ran with it because it was there. and then they changed something that messed up your system, and it's their fault ?

#3 OP n_K

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 16:24

So let me get this straight, you ran a system update, did not check up what was actually in this update, just ran with it because it was there. and then they changed something that messed up your system, and it's their fault ?

'Did not check what was in the update' - the usual was in the update, kernel, gnome, iptables, iproute, python, firefox, qt, timezones, etc.
And yeah it is their fault, https://www.archlinu...aced-by-logind/ because they want to be ###### for some reason. I can understand why they only want to concentrate on systemd but to remove a fully working rc script is just being pathetic.

#4 HawkMan

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 16:31

the usual and checking that they upgraded the kernel version and other high level updates without checking what they actually did does not mean you checked what was in the update.

Honestly, this is your fault, just like it would be the server admins fault if he went to windows update and saw "oh look a new update that updates the network stack and a new exchange version" and runs the update, without seeing that the network update is not compatible with their hardware, completely cutting off the network, ok finally fixing thatm now none of their clients can connect to exchange, oh yeah, that fancy new version, not compatible with their old clients.

You saw a new version and decided to update, you did not check what was actually changed in this update, and it broke your system. your fault.

#5 Javik

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 16:50

As far as I'm concerned if an update is pushed to the stable branch of any OS, it's the vendor's problem if it breaks the OS, not the user's. If an update can brake people's systems it should not be offered.

#6 HawkMan

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 16:56

I do use linux. and while Windows doesn't break things, you're not using windows are you, you're using linux, and you DID NOT check what the update actually did. whatever branch you're on, it's YOUR responsibility to check that the update doesn't break your OS. just like admins on windows have to run all updates on test servers first.

You're the one who chose to use linux, and specifically arch linux, that makes it your responsibility to check what the updates do, regardless of how many lines of changelog you have to check. you can't push this problem onto the devs.

oh and HEY LOOK
https://www.archlinux.org/
the top news on the archlinux website. yeah I can see you did thorough research on what was in this update, and that finding out initscripts are no longer supported required very thorough reading of long change logs indeed....

As for helping with the issue. you're saying you don't want help you just want to whine, if you had gone to the site and read said news, you'd see they recommend migrating to systemd.

personally I would recommend you migrate to Ubuntu, that way you don't have to worry about such things and you don't have to complaint hat the devs change stuff to make your life hard.

#7 Farstrider

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 16:56

End of initscripts support

2012-11-04


As systemd is now the default init system, Arch Linux is receiving minimal testing on initscripts systems. Due to a lack of resources and interest, we are unlikely to work on fixinginitscripts-specific bugs, and may close them as WONTFIX.
We therefore strongly encourage all users to migrate to systemd as soon as possible. See the systemd migration guide.
To ease the transition, initscripts support will remain in the official repositories for the time being, unless otherwise stated. As of January 2013, we will start removing initscripts support (e.g., rc scripts) from individual packages without further notice.

ConsoleKit replaced by logind

2012-10-30


With GNOME 3.6, polkit and networkmanager moving to [extra], ConsoleKit has now been removed from the repositories. Any package that previously depended on it now relies on systemd-logind instead. That means that the system must be booted with systemd to be fully functional.
In addition to GNOME, both KDE and XFCE are also affected by this change.

This has been on the front page for a while now!


#8 OP n_K

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 16:56

Yeah exactly. This isn't the first time arch linux updates have broken systems either, there was a font one not long ago, then the /lib problem which broke LOADS of systems. One huge problem of this I think is that they don't use the package comments to tell people things, and those they do put there aren't communicated to the user until after it's been installed.

I like how sabayon linux does it personally, it's got security advisories, upgrade info and a message system give you warnings about problematic packages or upgrades or whatnot, just what I never really like about it though is for some reason when you updated, it'd drag in packages you didn't need or want. I remember it always dragged wireless drivers in, not just A wireless driver but about 3GB of them, plus ATI and Intel GFX drivers if you had an NVIDIA card! Hah.

"You're the one who chose to use linux, and specifically arch linux, that makes it your responsibility to check what the updates do, regardless of how many lines of changelog you have to check. you can't push this problem onto the devs."
Are you honestly still here? Didn't I tell you to go away?

"That means that the system must be booted with systemd to be fully functional."
Yes but https://wiki.archlin...display_manager ! They never mentioned you had to enable the service on the front page :/
And I'm on systemd now anyway, I figured out the problem with cpupower not being loaded properly from it's rc.conf counterpart, systemd has it's own cpupower service which it runs and therefore ignores the rc.conf one.

Edited by n_K, 04 November 2012 - 16:58.


#9 HawkMan

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 17:02

As far as I'm concerned if an update is pushed to the stable branch of any OS, it's the vendor's problem if it breaks the OS, not the user's. If an update can brake people's systems it should not be offered.


As he himself said, linux, specifically arch, doesn't work like that, updates are often pushed directly, not necessarily in only big updates. And as an arch user the system is your own responsibility, and checking up what updates can do is your responsibility. The update wasn't "pushed" on him, it was offered him, and he chose to upgrade without checking what was in the update at all, not even checking the archlinux webpage. I'm sure this was also pre-announced. Yep, it was. nearly a month ago it wwas pre announced that systemd was the default and intitscripts where going bye bye.

Are you honestly still here? Didn't I tell you to go away?

Wasn't aware that I had to do what you told me. sorry to have to tell you this, but this is a discussion forum, you came here to whine that you did a booboo and it was someone else's fault, I'm allowed to tell you it's actually your fault for running a linux distro that's to advanced for you and/or not reading up on changes.

#10 Javik

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 17:03

Not really relevant what the rationalisation for it is tbh, if an update is being pushed that break's people's setups it's the fault of the vendor not the user. You could spend a year preparing for it but if it was broken your preparation is still wasted time.

#11 f0rk_b0mb

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 17:03

I'm a novice Kubuntu user, but maybe you can just reinstall via terminal what they took out...or will this not work?

#12 OP n_K

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 17:04

Snipped

I'm a novice Kubuntu user, but maybe you can just reinstall via terminal what they took out...or will this not work?

Unfortunately not. I found one of the problems with the sound control, they've made the icon black so you can't see it, but the other bug with the mouse wheel on it is still present.

Edited by Marshall, 09 November 2012 - 16:59.


#13 Farstrider

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 17:13

Not really relevant what the rationalisation for it is tbh, if an update is being pushed that break's people's setups it's the fault of the vendor not the user. You could spend a year preparing for it but if it was broken your preparation is still wasted time.


It's totally relevant, go to the front page and read what they say! You are expressly warned what is going to happen!!! The premiss that the new system is working on is completely different to the old one! What's so hard to understand about that? You are not not being forced to run the updates! These updates are not plugging holes for viruses and such nonsense, it's changing the system completely! You can't draw a parallel between windows updates and what Arch is busy doing here!

#14 Javik

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 17:15

Reasonable vendors don't push such massive changes in an update, they do it in a new version. If it's a potentially config breaking change it should NEVER be pushed as stable when it clearly is not. And as sick as I am of Windows 8 this is why Linux won't get taken seriously, you shouldn't have to be a complete nerd to update an OS without breaking it completely.

#15 OP n_K

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 17:18

"These updates are not plugging holes for viruses and such nonsense"
Erm, what? I think you'll find the firefox update patches security holes, etc. not every update on arch is to add new features. They keep updating filesystem but I don't see new features getting added to that.



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