Linux Instead of Windows

[tiagosilva29]

Linux's biggest strength is also its biggest weakness: There is no standard and everything can be tweaked to the user's liking.

What do you mean with "no standard"?

[Ambroos]

Isn't part of developing anything for Linux the source code must be open? I thought that was just a part of Linux

It's absolutely not a requirement. If you base your code on something that is open source you might have to make your own modifications open source too, depending on the license. This is also why Android kernel sources must be released by each Android OEM. But Steam for example absolutely doesn't have to be open source.

[patseguin Global Moderator]

Trying to install a distro alongside Windows 8 so I can dual boot. Nothing even recognizes that another OS is already installed. What's the best way to get a distro Like KUbuntu installed as a dual boot with Windows 8?

[Original Poster]

This is wishful thinking. Linux on desktop has failed and continues to fail due to its own flaws, and if the Linux community doesn't recognize this they'll ever stay an insignificant player in the desktop space. Even if Windows 8 doesn't succeed, that doesn't make Linux any more attractive. It has been tried before, and we've heard all this talk about the year of Linux every year including when Vista was released which was a much worse version than Windows 8 - Windows 8 has annoying UI flaws but no major compatibility problem.

i agree with you on some levels ...linux will never make it into the game as a real player for desktop just because it require a bit of technical knowledge more then the average user has .... but I think if you know what you need and now how to use it linux is one of the best desktop OS I have ever had (I actively use Linux and windows on two separate machines on a daily basis )

[+Majesticmerc MVC]

Nice to hear from a software developers perspective and everything you say seems spot on. If Linux ever did become mainstream, commercial developers would have to make their source code open and I can't see how that would be a good thing for someone trying to sell and support software.

That's not true at all. Closed source software is available on Linux as easily as it is on Windows, people just tend to favour open source alternatives, such is the ethos of Linux. There's plenty of Closed source software allowed though. Opera, Spotify and Steam being three options I can think of off the top of my head.

I don't blame you for thinking that though. The "on Linux everything has to be open source" myth has been peddled by the FUD spreaders for many years. Its one of the most persistent pieces of misinformation that surrounds Linux.

[patseguin Global Moderator]

That's not true at all. Closed source software is available on Linux as easily as it is on Windows, people just tend to favour open source alternatives, such is the ethos of Linux. There's plenty of Closed source software allowed though. Opera, Spotify and Steam being three options I can think of off the top of my head.

I don't blame you for thinking that though. The "on Linux everything has to be open source" myth has been peddled by the FUD spreaders for many years. Its one of the most persistent pieces of misinformation that surrounds Linux.

Thanks for clarifying that. I wasn't aware of any of that. The open source myth has been in my head for a long time.

Anyways, I've tried several distros in VM's. Ubuntu, KUbuntu, Linux Mint, Fedora, Arch (although I couldn't figure out how to install it). All are fun to play with but I can't see using the computer in my sig for one of these distros for my main OS. Just not enough mainstream support. If/when Steam comes out with Linux games I might take a closer look but for me Linux is more of a fun thing to play with than use as an everyday OS.

[n_K]

Can't figure out how to install arch?

They made https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Installation_Guide for a reason ;)

[Mindovermaster Global Moderator]

There are Arch Boot disks with Gnome/XFCE already loaded on.

[patseguin Global Moderator]

Can't figure out how to install arch?

They made https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Installation_Guide for a reason ;)

That's exactly what im talking about. You need a 2nd computer and wiki to even install it

[n_K]

No you don't.

CD boots up;

-> links

-> ESC, google.com, ENTER

-> 'arch linux install guide', ENTER

-> down, ENTER

-> Alt + Right or CTRL + ALT + F2

-> Follow instructions

[Karl L.]

Just to clarify, as a new Linux user, Arch is probably NOT the distro you want to start with. Its is designed with somewhat more experienced users in mind. Its not that its THAT hard, like n_K is trying to point out, but its certainly not a super easy installation or setup: and its not meant to be. Fedora, Ubuntu, and Mint are about as easy, mainstream, and supported as you are going to get.

Personally, I still recommend Ubuntu (or Kubuntu) for new users simply because it is very polished (at least the LTS releases) and easy to use, and is likely to become the de-facto standard for consumer-oriented commercial development due to Canonical's backing and Valve's precedent. You don't have to stick with it once you get more experience. Many people don't, but its an excellent place to start.

Edit: This thread is dangerously close to getting derailed as ANOTHER "I hate Linux because its not Windows" thread. Lets not go there again. We have enough of those on Neowin already. (In fact, I started one of them intentionally a while ago. My first thread!)

[patseguin Global Moderator]

This in now way is meant as an I hare windows thread. In fact I'm in the minority who loves windows 8. I only started this thread based on my perception that game developers are bailing in windows and looking to Linux, as Valve has said.

All that being said my two personal favorites are mint and kubuntu.

[CubeDweller]

What do you mean with "no standard"?

I mean there is no standard windowing toolkit that I can count on being installed on a user's machine. For example, if I write an app for Windows, I can count on the Win32 and Shell APIs to be installed and available. On Linux, it might be Qt, or Gtk, or TK, or ... There is no one toolkit I can count on being there (aside from straight X, but I really don't want to have to PutPixel my entire GUI myself, lol).

I think this is slowly changing as some distributions now pre-install both Gtk and Qt libraries. But it doesn't cover everyone, whether it's for technical, philosophical, or competency reasons.

EDIT: I think it's important for me to point out that my personal development time is mostly spent in Linux land, at the moment I'm tinkering with Python / PyGtk development on Ubuntu 12.10. :)

[ViperAFK]

I mean there is no standard windowing toolkit that I can count on being installed on a user's machine. For example, if I write an app for Windows, I can count on the Win32 and Shell APIs to be installed and available. On Linux, it might be Qt, or Gtk, or TK, or ... There is no one toolkit I can count on being there (aside from straight X, but I really don't want to have to PutPixel my entire GUI myself, lol).

I think this is slowly changing as some distributions now pre-install both Gtk and Qt libraries. But it doesn't cover everyone, whether it's for technical, philosophical, or competency reasons.

EDIT: I think it's important for me to point out that my personal development time is mostly spent in Linux land, at the moment I'm tinkering with Python / PyGtk development on Ubuntu 12.10. :)

The toolkits (gtk, qt etc...) are all available in every distros repos. If you package your app for a distro the package manager can automatically handle getting the appropriate libraries.

Also very few windows apps use only win32 these days, they generally bundle all their own libraries in the installer...

[Yogurtmaster]

Can't figure out how to install arch?

They made https://wiki.archlin...tallation_Guide for a reason ;)

Not saying that isn't great. However, some of us don't exactly have the time to put in for something so basic. If I was going to be a system admin that might appeal to me.

However, I am trying to get a CRM set-up and a VOIP system set-up and I don't think that having to have a guide for installation is the right move.

After 10 minutes of trying to hassle with it, I just went out and got mint which is simpler to set up (like ubuntu) and just works. I am interested in learning, but learning stuff about having a successful business and how to increase my skills at marketing and all of that. Figuring out how to make something work when it should let technology get out of the way isn't working for me.

[Yogurtmaster]

This in now way is meant as an I hare windows thread. In fact I'm in the minority who loves windows 8. I only started this thread based on my perception that game developers are bailing in windows and looking to Linux, as Valve has said.

All that being said my two personal favorites are mint and kubuntu.

Valve is a lot of talk and hype. I remember them saying there were never going to make games for the PS3 because it was a horrible technology, well they are making games for it.

Valve is making Steam for Linux, but nobody but a few people care about it.

People say lots of things at the heat of the moment, but all that talk doesn't mean much of anything. Valve isn't going to abandon windows and Linux isn't going to just become popular because of Valve.

As I said before, Linux has never been a good platform to replace windows. It is good if you want a cheap server and good if you just need to download an OS to get things done, but it's not going to replace Windows.

I remember when Steam first came out and it was junk, it kept crashing and it was horrible, it took them a while to get a product that actually works. It's like December 21st, 2012, nothing is going to happen.

It's all just hyperbole just the same as steam moving to Linux.

[soldier1st]

Linux Mint for me is the best linux os ever made. Light and powerful. But when I boot win 7 I see the difference between a free os and paid os.

What difference do you mean?Do you mean the free os to be better or what?

[redvamp128]

What difference do you mean?Do you mean the free os to be better or what?

I am guessing he has never ran the Paid Linux either>? Though he is probably meaning that Mint seems polished among Linux like that of Windows 7.

[Mindovermaster Global Moderator]

Valve is a lot of talk and hype. I remember them saying there were never going to make games for the PS3 because it was a horrible technology, well they are making games for it.

Valve is making Steam for Linux, but nobody but a few people care about it.

People say lots of things at the heat of the moment, but all that talk doesn't mean much of anything. Valve isn't going to abandon windows and Linux isn't going to just become popular because of Valve.

As I said before, Linux has never been a good platform to replace windows. It is good if you want a cheap server and good if you just need to download an OS to get things done, but it's not going to replace Windows.

I remember when Steam first came out and it was junk, it kept crashing and it was horrible, it took them a while to get a product that actually works. It's like December 21st, 2012, nothing is going to happen.

It's all just hyperbole just the same as steam moving to Linux.

Stop bashing Steam.

If the made games for PS3, it was probably cause they had to. Just that they didn't want to.

A lot of people are interested in Steam Linux, look at all the beta testers. And I can bet you everyone who uses Linux exclusively will love it.

Who says Valve is going to leave Windows? They just wanted to move to Linux as another platform. As more enthusiastic people about Linux also play Windows games.

Since when did Linux = Windows? Linux is like 100 lightyears from Windows. It is a totally different architecture all together.

Tell me one game/software that worked fine on first release... You will always have bugs...

If all you want to do is bash Linux, then I suggest you get out of this topic.

[redvamp128]

What a lot of people forget is before Direct X took off for the Windows there were games built with OpenGL. Those same games could run in both Windows and Linux . So yes there is a future for games to consider doing this... Windows still can run Open GL and correct me if I am wrong APPLE people but I think OSX supports OpenGL so there is a chance of that software crossing over to that platform as well.

I personally run a 40/60 split when School is in session... that means 40% of the time I am in Linux and the other 60% in Windows , because the one class I am taking (Introduction to Project Management uses Microsoft Project and Viso) requires it... if it was not for that then It would be more of a 50/50.

[Yogurtmaster]

Stop bashing Steam.

If the made games for PS3, it was probably cause they had to. Just that they didn't want to.

A lot of people are interested in Steam Linux, look at all the beta testers. And I can bet you everyone who uses Linux exclusively will love it.

Who says Valve is going to leave Windows? They just wanted to move to Linux as another platform. As more enthusiastic people about Linux also play Windows games.

Since when did Linux = Windows? Linux is like 100 lightyears from Windows. It is a totally different architecture all together.

Tell me one game/software that worked fine on first release... You will always have bugs...

If all you want to do is bash Linux, then I suggest you get out of this topic.

I wasn't really bashing steam at all. Just telling how it was before. You can get cheap games on steam.

I never said Linux = Windows, stop sniffing glue. I said there are people out there that want to try to replace Desktop Windows with Desktop Linux.

I was never bashing Linux at all, I said this small movement of nerds thinking that Valve adding Linux as a platform is hyperbole and it is.

Stop thinking I am bashing things when I give a history about something. You are a little too sensitive. I am not bashing anything. Just trying to lay out that there is some hyperbole going on.

[+Majesticmerc MVC]

I wasn't really bashing steam at all. Just telling how it was before. You can get cheap games on steam.

I never said Linux = Windows, stop sniffing glue. I said there are people out there that want to try to replace Desktop Windows with Desktop Linux.

I was never bashing Linux at all, I said this small movement of nerds thinking that Valve adding Linux as a platform is hyperbole and it is.

Stop thinking I am bashing things when I give a history about something. You are a little too sensitive. I am not bashing anything. Just trying to lay out that there is some hyperbole going on.

Think about the bigger picture.

New hardware engineers + TV-oriented user interface + Linux Client + controller patents = ...

[Yogurtmaster]

Think about the bigger picture.

New hardware engineers + TV-oriented user interface + Linux Client + controller patents = ...

You mean the new steam box? yeah maybe. However, it's going to have a ton of competition and not just from Microsoft, from Apple as well and then you have Roku.

Microsoft is going full on assault there, by releasing two devices one extremely low cost and the other their next gen console and then you have Apple TV, Roku, and probably Sony's PS4.

[Mindovermaster Global Moderator]

I wasn't really bashing steam at all. Just telling how it was before. You can get cheap games on steam.

I never said Linux = Windows, stop sniffing glue. I said there are people out there that want to try to replace Desktop Windows with Desktop Linux.

I was never bashing Linux at all, I said this small movement of nerds thinking that Valve adding Linux as a platform is hyperbole and it is.

Stop thinking I am bashing things when I give a history about something. You are a little too sensitive. I am not bashing anything. Just trying to lay out that there is some hyperbole going on.

Then why does almost everyone else on here suggest different Linux distros while you are against it?

[patseguin Global Moderator]

Valve is a lot of talk and hype. I remember them saying there were never going to make games for the PS3 because it was a horrible technology, well they are making games for it.

Valve is making Steam for Linux, but nobody but a few people care about it.

People say lots of things at the heat of the moment, but all that talk doesn't mean much of anything. Valve isn't going to abandon windows and Linux isn't going to just become popular because of Valve.

As I said before, Linux has never been a good platform to replace windows. It is good if you want a cheap server and good if you just need to download an OS to get things done, but it's not going to replace Windows.

I remember when Steam first came out and it was junk, it kept crashing and it was horrible, it took them a while to get a product that actually works. It's like December 21st, 2012, nothing is going to happen.

It's all just hyperbole just the same as steam moving to Linux.

Yeah you're probably right. I guess I wanted to see if Linux could be mainstream yet. I go way back with Linux and actually use to build my own distro with Gentoo. It was very time consuming but a heck of a lot of fun. I'm starting to think that building a box for it is going to be better than trying to dual boot. None of the distros I tried recognized that I had Windows 8 installed so I feared that none of them would give me a dual boot menu.