65 posts in this topic

And this is why gun control debate in the USA is useless.

If even highly trained people, with a role model function, can't handle a gun properly, all is lost.

You would probably be very surprised at how MINIMALLY trained in firearms handling and use most rank and file LE are.

Its sort of criminal really to not require LE in the USA to have more training and knowledge than the average firearms enthusiast, but sadly, most LE lag far far behind.

In the UK police aren't armed and don't want to be armed, with the exception of specialist firearms units. Even if you accept that law enforcement officers should be routinely armed?which I don't?it doesn't mean that those weapons should be stored at their place of residence. Being realistic, disarming law enforcement officers in the US is unlikely to happen in the foreseeable future

I wont begrudge your opinion that LE should not be armed as a matter of course while performing their duties, the situation is vastly different in the UK than it is in the US.

Its simply a very very bad idea to disarm LE in the US even in their homes, criminals and gangs have been known to track down LE in their residences and attempt to exact revenge for many reasons, sometimes just to get them out of the way. I doubt any LE in the US would allow themselves to be disarmed in their homes, ironic since several want exactly that, disarmament for the average law abiding citizen...

but that doesn't mean more can't be done to prevent deaths like this - tough jail sentences for the improper storage and/or use of weapons would help prevent such incidences occurring. Weapons shouldn't be treated in such a cavalier manner.

They should indeednot be treated lightly, they are not toys. I have always agreed with promoting safe and responsible ownership and storage, there really isnt any excuse for what happened here, if he was showing off the firearms, why were they loaded? Irresponsible.

Yes you are right, true the gun doesn't go off by itself. But may I ask you a question? If the gun wasn't there at all, would have it been possible for the kid to have accidently pulled the trigger?

Ban kids.

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Ban kids.

classy. aren't you a kid in the teenage sense?

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I wont begrudge your opinion that LE should not be armed as a matter of course while performing their duties, the situation is vastly different in the UK than it is in the US.

Its simply a very very bad idea to disarm LE in the US even in their homes, criminals and gangs have been known to track down LE in their residences and attempt to exact revenge for many reasons, sometimes just to get them out of the way. I doubt any LE in the US would allow themselves to be disarmed in their homes, ironic since several want exactly that, disarmament for the average law abiding citizen...

Indeed. I appreciate that it's a different situation and disarming LE in the US in the current climate would be disastrous. But more needs to be done to protect innocent lives, as this death was entirely unnecessary and easily avoidable.

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Most law enforcement carry Glock handguns which have no mechanical safety, just a trigger stop that must be depressed with the trigger. On that note, if you're showing someone your guns the first thing you should do is ensure that they are unloaded. This should never have happened.

Yeah, I own Glock myself. The sheer force needed to pull back the trigger in that case should have been enough to deter a 4 year old, but then again, maybe kids these days have stronger fingers... all those cow hormones.

Also, I agree on the loaded in the house on a bed in the middle of a party... ODD.

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Indeed. I appreciate that it's a different situation and disarming LE in the US in the current climate would be disastrous. But more needs to be done to protect innocent lives, as this death was entirely unnecessary and easily avoidable.

Which comes down to the responsibility of the individuals in question. This isn't even about guns so much as it is being a responsible adult. I'm not a parent or anything, but I'm not dumb enough to leave weapons within a child's reach. Hell, even when I cook, I face the pot handles in-wards keeping them out of reach from my non-existent children (good habits help after all). I also don't leave my vitamins, supplements, or medication out either, like some people do.

It's basic safety that can prevent things like this from happening, and overall, proper parental supervision. Obviously we can't be around 24/7, but simple things like "keep the weapons out of reach" are a no-brainer.

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If you think that people shouldn't care about things that don't immediately affect them then I suggest you read this: Why Americans Are So Ignorant (despite the title it's not an anti-American article)

Why do i need to read something that simply takes jabs that 30% don't know who dropped the A-Bomb or who doesnt know what the holocaust was or even better - two retarded fox news analyst that are so far up the republicans asses its not funny?

So i ask you again - why does THIS particular incident have any impact on you? - it's a pretty cut and dry event - idiot brings loaded guns out around kid, kid grabs gun that had no safety mechanisms on it, boom - kid dead because of an idiot parent who failed to take the proper actions to secure his guns in a fashion that wouldn't kill some kid. Or do you like other use situations like this to point fingers at the US and say we're too dumb and unsafe to use guns correctly, when there are millions of gun owners out there who own guns for all sorts of various reasons who don't make idiot decisions like this guy did.

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So i ask you again - why does THIS particular incident have any impact on you? - it's a pretty cut and dry event - idiot brings loaded guns out around kid, kid grabs gun that had no safety mechanisms on it, boom - kid dead because of an idiot parent who failed to take the proper actions to secure his guns in a fashion that wouldn't kill some kid. Or do you like other use situations like this to point fingers at the US and say we're too dumb and unsafe to use guns correctly, when there are millions of gun owners out there who own guns for all sorts of various reasons who don't make idiot decisions like this guy did.

This event simply reinforces my opinion that guns should be heavily restricted. It's always worth looking to other countries to see what works and what doesn't. For instance, Portugal's decriminalisation of drugs have been remarkably successful and should be a role model for all countries; Germany's censorship of Nazism is deeply concerning; the UK's move to prosecute commenters on Twitter is very chilling, etc. It's through knowledge of other countries, cultures, concepts and ideologies that we can improve our lives and society itself.

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Gun's are restricted as is...you can't refuse a sale to someone though because you assume he might accidentally kill his son or neighbors kid because he didn't think about gun safety... hell maybe if some of these people took hunter ed (which stresses gun safety as a good portion of the 8 hr session) it might help but it will not eliminate this stuff from happening...and taking away all the guns because of a few bad apples isn't right either.

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Not his mom? Good.

My, apparently popular, song needs a re-write though (same tune as before):

I shot a wo-maaan

but I di-dn't shoot the de-pu-ty...

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^ Accidents happen to everyone, all it takes is a few seconds lapse and BAM, someone is dead.

I agree. And no matter how well prepared you are nothing can stop an accident from happening.

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I agree. And no matter how well prepared you are nothing can stop an accident from happening.

That wasn't an accident. That was negligence.

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Why do i need to read something that simply takes jabs that 30% don't know who dropped the A-Bomb or who doesnt know what the holocaust was or even better - two retarded fox news analyst that are so far up the republicans asses its not funny?

So i ask you again - why does THIS particular incident have any impact on you? - it's a pretty cut and dry event - idiot brings loaded guns out around kid, kid grabs gun that had no safety mechanisms on it, boom - kid dead because of an idiot parent who failed to take the proper actions to secure his guns in a fashion that wouldn't kill some kid. Or do you like other use situations like this to point fingers at the US and say we're too dumb and unsafe to use guns correctly, when there are millions of gun owners out there who own guns for all sorts of various reasons who don't make idiot decisions like this guy did.

In places with sensible attitudes to gun control accidents like this are pretty much a non event. The problem with universal rights is that they have to be given to smart people and stupid people, and the law of averages dictates that most societies contain more dumb people than smart people, and when you combine that with a social order in which everybody can demand their rights but nobody talks about their responsibilities you get tragic accidents repeating. Granted, you can't control everything dangerous, but for the vast majority of people guns don't even approach being a necessity (and before you pull the personal safety argument I will point out again that on average societies without guns are no more unsafe than those with) so you're just asking for trouble. And as asking Americans to treat guns sensibly seems about as fruitful as asking Israel and Palestine to love each other, it's just going to keep happening.

When people wake up and start learning the lessons of their mistakes, then I may find it easier to have some sympathy for them

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classy. aren't you a kid in the teenage sense?

Im not surprised in the least you wouldn't understand the idea.

You made a claim that if the gun didn't exist then the kid have had no opportunity, and this is true.

Thinking about this further though firearms are not going away, the SCOTUS has in fact affirmed the right as an individual right to keep and bear, as well as set precedent that firearms "in common use" (such as handguns) are protected by the second amendment, thus banning them will be incredibly difficult at best.

Ergo, as effective (or moreso) to ban the child from the firearm, the owner was negligent in having loaded firearms in an accessible location, very negligent, then to compound that, he allowed a child (with no basic firearms safety knowledge) into that same location as those loaded firearms.

So lets use a simple version of your idea (keep the firearm away from the child) combined with the second idea of keeping the child from the firearm.

Ban kids.

yeah but it may help lower the chances of accidents happening if you don't leave killing devices laying around.

I assume you specifically mean fatal firearms accidents, I agree, don't leave your firearms loaded and unsecured, especially don't let children into that area where firearms may be present

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I am not against a better background check system, I am however against guns being banned because, like the CNN reporter said, it's more than just the guns. We have to look beyond the gun to find the problem.

If you ban guns, they will use knives. If you ban knives, they will use kitchen knives. If you ban kitchen knives, they will use explosives. If you ban explosives, they will use home-made explosives and the vicious cycle will go on and on. Anyone with a computer and internet can find a recipe to make a bomb using common household chemicals in a matter of minutes so I guess they will have to ban house cleaners too.

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I am not against a better background check system, I am however against guns being banned because, like the CNN reporter said, it's more than just the guns. We have to look beyond the gun to find the problem.

If you ban guns, they will use knives. If you ban knives, they will use kitchen knives. If you ban kitchen knives, they will use explosives. If you ban explosives, they will use home-made explosives and the vicious cycle will go on and on. Anyone with a computer and internet can find a recipe to make a bomb using common household chemicals in a matter of minutes so I guess they will have to ban house cleaners too.

Can this be proven, that if someone had to use something other than a gun, that it would result in the same or more deaths? Sure, crime will happen, but is the level/severity of destruction the same when a knife or a gun is used? If it was, I think I'd see more knives used in war and less guns....... Guns are very effective at taking mass lives with very little effort and energy. Knives, while they could take the same amount of lives, require a ton more effort and mobility to use.

Fact is, knives , while deadly, are less lethal than a gun. This is proven. http://scienceblogs....5/knives-00000/

Explosives is a hard thing to stop anyone from using, but normally, people don't mess with them for many reasons. One being that making them can be just as deadly as using them.

Just because bad things will continue to happen, isn't a reason to keep other bad things happening. We already have restrictions on knife sizes. We also have restrictions on explosives. Guns have very little restrictions compared to the other 2.

http://pweb.netcom.c...ine/sta-law.htm - Knife Law Restrictions

Explosives are so regulated, at least the "premade" ones, that even some fireworks are illegal.

Home made deadly anything is a problem. But we can't just live in fear and say, "Just because they could possibly make something at home, we all need to have these things available."

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