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Opera: Microsoft's 'minor tweak' of Windows 7 not enough

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This is a failure on mozilla's part to advertise their OS. Why not run a wordwide tv advert or poster campaign saying, visit blah blah.com and download the Firefox browser for free...

You mean browser ;)

It has nothing to do with mozilla that the average Joe associates the internet with IE, it's because it was given to them by MS as the only option.

As others have said, if Microsoft provides a ballot screen, then they become responsible for a third party browser failing.

If Opera insists on whining like this, they should be going to the OEMs to make the ballot screen. OEMs can do this a lot easier, however this means just more crap ware being installed.

If MS are to do anything, they should do a similar thing to the search engines in IE. Give a list of browsers and a link to the site for that browser with a note to direct any support to that site. MS don't need to include the setup files as that would be pointless due to the browsers updating frequently.

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How many average Joes know of Firefox/Chrome without being told out it by the local tech kid? The average Joe thinks that IE is the internet (they most likely also think the web = the internet too).

Enough average Joe's know to make Firefox a significant player in the browser market, with a rising userbase every day. If it's good people hear about it and want to use it: word of mouth has always been the best advertising method.

Look around the net and you see people saying they've "converted" their family/friends from IE to Firefox, if left to their own choice, what would the family/friends have selected? I wouldn't be surprised if there were some people using Firefox who thought they were still using IE.

So their friends presented them with an alternative choice? That's great, but it shouldn't be Microsofts job to do that.

It's a slippery slope, first it was Media Player, now Internet Explorer, what next, Wordpad, Notepad, Paint the TCP/IP stack?

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I used to use Opera, but all this whining and bitching really puts me off the browser. People do have a choice, and Opera is not it, when will they realise they can't force it down our throats. I do like their browser, some of their features I miss in firefox, but thats why there are extensions to enable most of them. Yet to find a "fit to page width" extension though.

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If MS are to do anything, they should do a similar thing to the search engines in IE. Give a list of browsers and a link to the site for that browser with a note to direct any support to that site. MS don't need to include the setup files as that would be pointless due to the browsers updating frequently.

The issue with that is that a browser would still need to already be installed and obviously thats not going to happen

There is no easy win for Microsoft, the EU and Opera

Microsoft is not going to ever include setup files for a competitor (unless they buy them out) which makes a ballot screen hard to do.

Providing links to download other browsers, requires IE to be installed, not a solution for Opera.

The only real solution I see to end all of this, is the OEM providers

Edited by gamestargrinder

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Any form of ballot screen/user choice will simply not work, in a market where the majority of users think google.com is a browser, they're just going to go for what is familiar. Offer them a screen with a group of enlarged icons of the browsers, they're going to click the "Internet" icon. Offer them a textual list, do you think they're going to go for the option named INTERNET explorer or Firefox/Chrome?

For a market that is supposedly surpressed by the product with the largest share, Firefox has been making some damn good progress. It's also relevant to mention that IE's default homepage is MSN.com/Bing, yet Google have the dominant share of the search market. So using a search-revenue arguement is useless.

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The issue with that is that a browser would still need to already be installed and obviously thats not going to happen

There is no easy win for Microsoft, the EU and Opera

Microsoft is not going to ever include setup files for a competitor (unless they buy them out) which makes a ballot screen hard to do.

Providing links to download other browsers, requires IE to be installed, not a solution for Opera.

The only real solution I see to end all of this, is the OEM providers

Having a ballot screen doesn't require a browser at all. I said similar to the search engine option for a reason. Making a program that connects to a web site and retrieves an XML file containing browser name, download link, etc is an easy thing to do. Same goes for downloading the file, the HTTP protocol is pretty simple if you just want to download a file and wouldn't take long to code at all. If I could be bothered I could create something in under an hour that would be a simple working ballot screen with options to download the various browsers.

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I'm not sure the ballot screen solution is the best solution either. Wouldn't it set a bad precedent for other bundling demands to follow? Granted other apps that come bundled with Windows don't have that much of a stronghold yet in terms of marketshare - WMP would be the next distant match - but the possibility is there. And why annoy regular users that much more? You can't expect to present a Linux distro-like scenario to them where they can pick and choose what they want.

I'd favour the status quo - just continue to advertise browsers if people want to switch, even word of mouth works.

For the record, I do use their browser and think it's a decent product. I also think some of the responses up there are no more "childish" than what some of you claim Opera Software to be doing. But as another member said above, bold actions like these only antagonizes users of the browser.

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A really good free software doesnt need to pay for advertising. I think most of firefox's advertising was word of mouth, and happy users freely advertising it on their sites, etc.

I do like the opera browser, but it doesnt support roboform, which is why i used to refuse to use it.

Now i refuse to use it because they're becoming annoying as hell.

Firefox was advertised heavily through Adsense. There was a referrals ad for Firefox which payed around $1.50 per click, which is one of the reasons webmasters advertised it so heavily. It made them big bucks. That is how even the average user found out about Firefox being a good alternative to IE.

Even nowadays, Firefox advertises a lot through Google Adsense and probably other channels as well, but so do Internet Explorer and Google Chrome.

I'd say that Google has a big hand in making Firefox popular.

Too bad Opera couldn't find any such company to back them up, I wonder if that's got anything to do with their browser not being that good. :rolleyes:

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I don't think a ballot screen handled on the OS side is right. That puts most of the responsibility on MS's side to support things even if the software isn't from MS, users don't care.

The best thing, and the most MS should be forced to do is offer a link (like they do for their windows live apps) in the Welcome screen. This link should direct Win7 E users to a EU sanctioned and controlled browser website/list with options the users can then pick which one they want. The site should be managed and run by the EU and so on, not MS etc.

And before anyone says "how can they visit it without IE?" The trident engine is still in win7 e since it runs the help system for lots of apps and other parts for other programs, like WMP uses it as well. So simply having it open a basic website window without the rest of the UI is not a problem.

That's as far as it should go, MS shouldn't be forced to inclue other browsers on it's install media and it shouldn't be forced to promot them with a post-install ballat screen that it should run and manage.

If the EU wants to make sure this thing is fair, they should handle the details themselfs on their side with a simple webpage.

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Opera are a bunch of whiney little bitches.

I wish they would just STFU already.

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It would be funny if Microsoft does as they request and puts a ballot screen for browser selection in the installation process but doesn't list Opera as a choice.

Yeah, it wouldn't surprise me. All throughout WPC they kept referring to Safari, Firefox and IE as their 'Top Tier" browsers when discussing their web apps or other browser based solutions.

Opera to me is like a random pungent fart in the wind that turns up every know and then to quease us out.

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i think everyone knows the ballot screen isnt enough

opera just wants their name out there as much as possible, and are playing the victim

i used opera for like 4 months while back, and i always try new betas

i use stumbleupon in firefox, and i never have an issue with page rendering

after an hour of opera, ill find wonky looking rendering or crashes or some stupid issue, or just feel limited

maybe they should address that, before implying their browser is ready to be shipped with an OS

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Being the best browser has its price (in this case, lack of users)....

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i am using opera, but man are these guys a cry baby or what ..!!!

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I've been using Opera snapshots (on 1643 now), and all I can say is that the once fastest browser on Earth has morphed into the slowest, even more so than IE8. The new theme is an utter misfit on Windows and especially Linux. Nothing much else has changed either, except for the risqu? additions of Turbo and Unite ? sounds-nice-on-paper-but-useless-in-reality technologies just for the sake of claiming "innovation", which is as silly as Mozilla rushing the HTML5 video/audio tags just for the sake of claiming "standards support" (in other words, not really).

Is it just me, or is there an inverse relationship between the quality of the product and the volume of whining?

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Is it just me, or is there an inverse relationship between the quality of the product and the volume of whining?

I'd agree... remember SCO? :rolleyes:

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I've never had much against Opera but those guys seriously need to STFU. This has gone far enough.

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Why not this...and if this has been suggested, sorry...I try not to pay much attention to news about the crybaby Opera lest we make their temper tantrum worse...anyways the suggestion:

Put a link in the Windows Welcome center, you know...that thing you turn off immediately after you do a clean install? The link could just take people to a web page containing info about various web browsers.

Welcome to Windows 7 - Looking for a different web browsing experience? Try one of these <insert link to browser information page here>

The only problem with that is that they've already changed IE8's behavior in the European versions.

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Opera will be satisfied only in the day Windows start shipping in Opera as the main browser :p

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Why not this...and if this has been suggested, sorry...I try not to pay much attention to news about the crybaby Opera lest we make their temper tantrum worse...anyways the suggestion:

Put a link in the Windows Welcome center, you know...that thing you turn off immediately after you do a clean install? The link could just take people to a web page containing info about various web browsers.

Welcome to Windows 7 - Looking for a different web browsing experience? Try one of these <insert link to browser information page here>

The only problem with that is that they've already changed IE8's behavior in the European versions.

Problem is marketing. Who would be responsbile for the page, determine what browsers should be on it, and how to explain to people the choices. Most people I know don't want choice, they just want results. To them, they don't know why Opera or IE or Firefox would be better. They just want to get on the internet.

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Why not this...:

Put a link in the Windows Welcome center, you know...that thing you turn off immediately after you do a clean install? The link could just take people to a web page containing info about various web browsers.

I don't think it will work. Just let the OEM's worry about it. They'll be the ones to have to support it anyway.

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Problem is marketing. Who would be responsbile for the page, determine what browsers should be on it, and how to explain to people the choices. Most people I know don't want choice, they just want results. To them, they don't know why Opera or IE or Firefox would be better. They just want to get on the internet.

Just an idea in any case. Whoever assumes control of the page could make it so developers of the browsers could add their own. That way whoever wants their browser to be on there can submit it. The browser of course would need to meet certain standards to be successfully added/approved...like not sucking (Opera). :hmmm:

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While I don't agree with Opera's whining, I must admit I strongly prefer Opera over IE or Firefox and has done for almost a decade. The so-called "clunky" rendering must be a comment from someone who used an ancient version. The latest version - and indeed version 10 betas - are very much just as good as IE or FF - faster and better, actually. But of course it's all a matter of taste.

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Just an idea in any case. Whoever assumes control of the page could make it so developers of the browsers could add their own. That way whoever wants their browser to be on there can submit it. The browser of course would need to meet certain standards to be successfully added/approved...like not sucking (Opera). :hmmm:

I had the same idea, and basicaly in my post I said the EU should manage the page and handle everything. Since they want this to be "fair" and everything, let them go over the details and pick what's on the webpage and in what order etc. All MS should do is add the link to the Welcome Center along with the ones it has to it's Windows Live Apps.

Simple and easy. If the EU doesn't want to get it's hands dirty with such a simple task as running a website then I'm all for letting OEMs just install whatever browser they feel like.

In this case though, since the top players with money are MS and Google, I figure that'll be IE and Chrome in most cases.

OEM's are all for making money on the stuff they install there. Norton doesn't get installed for free you know.

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