Warning of speed traps protected by free speech

[Hum]

A judge in Florida ruled on Tuesday that flashing one's headlights to warn other drivers of speed traps set by police is protected by the First Amendment.

Ryan Kintner of Lake Mary, Fla. was pulled over and cited by a police officer in an unmarked car for doing just that. Kintner was at home when he saw a deputy park along a street and being using his radar gun. He got in his car, drove a little ways away and parked his vehicle so he could flash his lights at oncoming traffic to warn them.

He was stopped shortly after doing so and fined $166 for "improper flashing of lights."

Kintner, however, was not going down without a fight. :) He took his case to court, suing the Seminole County Sheriff's Office, with Attorney J. Marcus Jones arguing that "You're completely in your rights to flash your headlights. Flashing your headlights is expressive conduct protected by the First Amendment. By issuing a citation, monetary fine for that conduct you've breached the First Amendment rights."

The judge agreed that the officer misapplied a law meant to ban motorists from flashing after-market emergency lights and ruled that the law does not apply to people using headlights as a form of communication. Thus, the court decided, citing Kintner was, in fact, a violation of one of his Constitutionally-protected rights.

Jones has filed a similar suit in Tallahassee aimed at the entire Florida Highway Patrol, which has agreed to stop citing drivers for flashing their headlights until litigation is complete.

"This stuff is fun," said Jones after Tuesday's hearing.

source

[sava700]

use off road lights..they don't flash up the tail lights in the process which is what gives most people away in the first place.

[cooky560 Veteran]

You are missing the point I think sava

[Daedroth]

Imagine if that had been upheld. Drivers often warn other drivers of not only speed traps, but upcoming queues/problems/accidents (mainly lorry drivers). That's be a lot of people breaking the first amendment!

[Dashel]

I've run into this myself, I'm glad to hear he not only pushed back but one. Just another slimy way local city cops are looking to screw people over.

Frankly, it seems that new drivers today don't understand their civic duty to other drivers when they see speed traps like that.

[Hum]

We should have vehicle signs that we can light up, that read: COP AHEAD :laugh:

[melansonbx93]

I can't believe someone was fined for this. I was driving my truck into town the other day to pickup a friend and I didn't have an inspection, but I saw someone flashing their headlights and was wondering what was going on... I get down the road to find a road check, luckily I drove slow and was able to turn into a subdivision right before it and turn around. People flash their lights around here to warn of road checks, speed radaring, accidents or maybe even a reckless or drunk driver. As soon as you see someone flash their lights, it's to signal you to proceed with caution and pay close attention to detail - It pretty much wakes you up.

[Noir Angel]

If the argument that speed traps is to get people to slow down were to hold any water, the police wouldn't give a damn what the actual reason was for the slowing down, as long as the driver actually slowed down. The fact that the people giving the warnings are being censored tells us one thing: That the speed traps have nothing to do with safer driving and everything to do with making more money from fines.

[Dan~]

Well he could argue that he was warning drivers of a hazard ahead, slow down. After all a speed gun/camera etc is a hazard as people usually brake, even though they don't need to, just a natural reaction.

Could of even tried "I forgot where my window washer lever was" :p

but yer, he knew what he was doing and got raped for trying to help others, always happens to the nice people

[Kami-]

but yer, he knew what he was doing and got raped for trying to help others, always happens to the nice people

Did you actually read the whole thing?

[Kirkburn]

'Civic duty', 'the nice people' ... seriously? I know this is hardly a new issue (nor am I going to end the discussion), but think of it this way: he was acting as a lookout for people engaged in illegal acts. That doesn't sound like civic duty to me.

[Rohdekill]

I've run into this myself, I'm glad to hear he not only pushed back but one. Just another slimy way local city cops are looking to screw people over.

Frankly, it seems that new drivers today don't understand their civic duty to other drivers when they see speed traps like that.

Civic duty? lol.

I personally never warn oncoming drivers on speed traps. You know the speed limit. You know the punishment if caught. You made the choice.

[+Majesticmerc MVC]

'Civic duty', 'the nice people' ... seriously? I know this is hardly a new issue (nor am I going to end the discussion), but think of it this way: he was acting as a lookout for people engaged in illegal acts. That doesn't sound like civic duty to me.

How do you know those people were intent on committing illegal acts? I've nearly been caught out before simply because I wasn't watching my speed as it slowly increased over the speed limit. The civic duty here is reminding people to watch their speed and to avoid an accident by driving too fast, and to drive safely (after all, speed cameras are there to ensure that people are driving safely, and not just as a source of money right? Right?). It's not like every person on the road is a lead-footed death trap.

[Kirkburn]

How do you know those people were intent on committing illegal acts? I've nearly been caught out before simply because I wasn't watching my speed as it slowly increased over the speed limit. The civic duty here is reminding people to watch their speed and to avoid an accident by driving too fast, and to drive safely (after all, speed cameras are there to ensure that people are driving safely, and not just as a source of money right? Right?). It's not like every person on the road is a lead-footed death trap.

Intent has nothing to do with it. If you're not controlling your speed, that's your problem. (Yes, I drive, and I know it's not easy - but that doesn't really excuse it).

Civic duty would mean doing it all the time, not just when the person has a chance of being caught.He was doing it to save people from being caught by the police officer, not to save them from speeding.

And yes, speed cameras are used to prevent people from speeding. Amazingly, things can have more than one purpose. I don't agree with profit being a good purpose, but I'm not denying it might be a motivation. However, the main reason for having them is to prevent people from doing something dangerous and illegal.

[Glassed Silver]

If the argument that speed traps is to get people to slow down were to hold any water, the police wouldn't give a damn what the actual reason was for the slowing down, as long as the driver actually slowed down. The fact that the people giving the warnings are being censored tells us one thing: That the speed traps have nothing to do with safer driving and everything to do with making more money from fines.

Or you know, it's the principle of random sampling.

Glassed Silver:mac

[+Majesticmerc MVC]

However, the main reason for having them is to prevent people from doing something dangerous and illegal.

But isn't that what this guy was also trying to do, less the conviction for motoring offences?

[Kirkburn]

But isn't that what this guy was also trying to do, less the conviction for motoring offences?

No, it wasn't. His plan was for people to avoid being caught.

[Knife Party]

I usually flash my lights because I feel everyone should have a chance to correct their behaviour before being caught by traffic cops. If you want to continue speeding, fine by me, you deserve a ticket/fine then. Anyways, fines and tickets are all such a load of BS money making schemes, i have 0 respect for traffic cops, especially when I see how reckless and stupid they drive themselves. So i'll be damned if they get the upper hand..

[Kirkburn]

I usually flash my lights because I feel everyone should have a chance to correct their behaviour before being caught by traffic cops. If you want to continue speeding, fine by me, you deserve a ticket/fine then. Anyways, fines and tickets are all such a load of BS money making schemes, i have 0 respect for traffic cops, especially when I see how reckless and stupid they drive themselves. So i'll be damned if they get the upper hand..

Traffic cops don't make the law - their behaviour has no bearing on whether people should be caught or not. (Obviously I do think police in any form should be paragons of society).

[andrewbares]

Civic duty? lol.

I personally never warn oncoming drivers on speed traps. You know the speed limit. You know the punishment if caught. You made the choice.

I completely agree. It's your own decision to speed, and by doing so you're endangering others (YES you are, even if you're a Nascar super-auto cross expert space ship g-force racer).

And it's your own fault if you slowly rise above the speed limit or don't realize you're speeding. You're driving a VEHICLE on a PUBLIC ROAD, you are responsible for your actions. You could kill someone, so you better be aware of what you're doing.

Now do I sometimes speed? Yep, but I go with the flow of the traffic (unless they're going more than 10 mph over). People typically drive 5 mph over, and that's became acceptable (heck, speed cameras only catch you for going 11 mph over). People who excessively speed need to be punished.

[Knife Party]

Traffic cops don't make the law - their behaviour has no bearing on whether people should be caught or not. (Obviously I do think police in any form should be paragons of society).

sure they don't make it, but most twist it or try to meet quotas for the month to make money. Then it comes down to them simply pulling you over or giving fines for pure BS.

[melansonbx93]

sure they don't make it, but most twist it or try to meet quotas for the month to make money. Then it comes down to them simply pulling you over or giving fines for pure BS.

You got that right man. I find during the first 2 1/2 weeks of the month the cops are really understanding and slack. For the last 1 1/2 weeks the cops put the hammer down on absolutely everything and around here it's the only time that you'll see a road-check or anything like that. Another thing I noticed is that here we have our "Graduated Driver Licensing Program" it's also called the GDL program, and in that program you're required to wear a "G" decal regardless of what stage you are in for the 3 years that you have your license under that program. There are numerous restrictions on the first year, then the second year you pretty much have your full license and the 3rd year is a probationary period - The police take advantage of all this, because they can give tickets for no decal, past curfew e.t.c.

I would be willing to bet any amount of money that once the quota situation was removed, there would be a lot less tickets.

[Dashel]

Do any of you (not surprisingly European) who are more worried about the 'unpunished' crime really think that ticket changes behavior or creates safer drivers? Especially when they aren't really targeting specific bad behaviors? (ie not all speeding is 'reckless', in fact not flowing with traffic is far more dangerous - which is really what most of these traps boil down to - a big game of red rover)

[Growled Member]

Good for that judge. It gets really old watching police abuse their authority.

[qdave]

Civic duty? lol.

I personally never warn oncoming drivers on speed traps. You know the speed limit. You know the punishment if caught. You made the choice.

People like you should not be allowed to drive!

Sadly this almost doesn't happen in Ontario...nobody cares about other drivers :( But when i was driving in Europe i noticed it a lot more often. Good people there!