Windows 8 Thoughts and Discussion

By Captain Peasant
in Microsoft (Windows)

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Captain Peasant

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So, I've been reading about Windows 8 a bit lately and I gotta say, I'm not confident about this version of Windows.

I remember installing the very *first* developer preview version of Win 8 and I was hyped, but after a few days, the hype subsided. I went back to Win 7 and I felt right at home. The Win 8 aftertaste was bizarre and I came away from it confused about why they think that's what I want in an OS.

Now, fast forward to today and I hear that Aero Glass support is completely dropped. I am a huge fan of the Aero glass interface and if I'm to use Win 8, I'm going to have to download a fan made theme that returns the desktop to its former glory. As a desktop user, I feel like the effort to minimalize the OS was brought on by Microsoft's desire to put this desktop on a battery chugging tablet. I feel like I'm getting the ****ty end of the stick. This is not what I wanted. I don't care that it matches your new Metro theme, I think it doesn't match. I think it's fugly. Desktop and tablet do not mix in my opinion.

And this is where I feel like Windows 8 might be a disaster. As a tablet OS, I think it might be a disaster and as a desktop OS, I think it will be a disaster. I think Win 7 is the new XP. People will cling to it until its death... Win 8 will be the new Vista... definitely not in terms of bloat, but in terms of it being totally unwanted.

I do not look at Win 8 as an OS that was built out of desire or request, I look at it as an attempt to enter into the tablet market by piggy backing off their desktop user base. This is pretty undesirable behavior, Microsoft. I appreciate their efforts to make a tablet / desktop hybrid OS, but I feel like the desktop and tablet should have been separate operating systems. Sure, they are fully well entitled to use their OS how they want to, but I'm also fully well entitled to avoid this one like the plague.

Their latest blunder was going with ARM for tablets instead of an x86 CPU... this seems limiting. Intel is obviously not happy with this decision. I'm not happy because it means that there will be incompatibilities between the tablet version and the desktop version. Wasn't Windows 8 supposed to bridge the gap between tablets and desktops? Intel already debuted its x86 mobile CPU and from what I understand, it's good. The device sucked, but the mobile x86 CPU was good. Going with ARM seems like the wrong decision, in my opinion.

Not to mention, the tablet version of Windows 8 will be shutting out browser competition. I only recently got an android phone and being able to install Firefox on there alleviated some stress of having to use that terrible android browser. I am NOT a fan. Not being able to use Firefox on a Windows 8 tablet may make or break me when it comes to deciding on which tablet to buy. Minority or not, I believe this will have some far reaching repercussions. People will tell others not to get a Windows 8 tablet and this will reverberate. This happened with Vista, I don't see why it wouldn't with Windows 8.

Unlike Apple fanboys, Windows fanboys are bold enough to reject certain Microsoft creations. It makes me wonder why Microsoft would even chance something like this.

I'm gearing up to try the Win 8 release candidate when its released so I will hold my final judgement until then... but I would be lying if I said I didn't already have a predisposition based on everything I've been reading lately. It seems like bad news followed by more unexpected bad news.

Thoughts?

-Captain

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https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1080115-windows-8-thoughts-and-discussion/
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Grand Master

Dot Matrix

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Posted

"Not to mention, the tablet version of Windows 8 will be shutting out browser competition."

Huh? Both Chrome and Firefox are coming to Win8 ARM. How is that hurting competition? You won't be using the desktop on ARM anyway, save for Office.

Grand Master

Stoffel

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It's because people like you that Vista has a bad reputation. Just blindly believing everything people say.

You used the DP for a little bit, went back to Win7 and never tried it again, yet you believe everything they say on the forums.

Use it for a while and you might actually like it, like so many of us.

You will never like it if you keep seeing it as a Tablet OS, with the desktop as an afterthought, which it isn't

  • oliver182 and McKay
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Enthusiast

Josh the Nerd

Posted
Posted

"Not to mention, the tablet version of Windows 8 will be shutting out browser competition."

Huh? Both Chrome and Firefox are coming to Win8 ARM. How is that hurting competition? You won't be using the desktop on ARM anyway, save for Office.

To ARM? Do you have a source for that?

Grand Master

Dot Matrix

Posted
Posted

To ARM? Do you have a source for that?

https://www.neowin.net/news/firefox-for-windows-8-metro-development-officially-starts

http://www.zdnet.com/blog/bott/google-joins-windows-8-browser-war-with-plans-for-metro-chrome/4634

Veteran

rfirth

Posted
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That's true, but perhaps only for Windows 8. For Windows RT, there are a few sticky points at the moment - namely the inability to mark data as executable. It's great for security, but makes it harder to make an efficient JavaScript interpreter.

Enthusiast

Josh the Nerd

Posted
Posted

Both companies are working on Metro versions, but only for x86. They can't port to ARM because Metro browsers rely on running Win32 code which Windows RT won't allow. https://www.neowin.net/news/mozilla-firefox-would-be-crippled-on-windows-rt

Grand Master

Dot Matrix

Posted
Posted

Both companies are working on Metro versions, but only for x86. They can't port to ARM because Metro browsers rely on running Win32 code which Windows RT won't allow. http://www.neowin.ne...d-on-windows-rt

False. Metro apps work on both WinRT and x86. I'm sure Mozilla can come up with something else. That's nothing more than Google crying foul because they can't sink their dirty hands deeper into system processes.

Desktop apps are the ones that need to be recompiled for ARM. But the desktop is only on ARM because of Explorer and Office.

Grand Master

Noir Angel

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What can I say about it? well in short, I dislike it. I dislike being forced into using Metro, and I dislike the fact that they're apparently going to remove aero. If people find ways to hack those features out and in respectively I may consider using it, but otherwise Windows 8 is a release that I intend to skip, for the first time... ever.

Grand Master

simplezz

Posted
Posted

"Not to mention, the tablet version of Windows 8 will be shutting out browser competition."

Huh? Both Chrome and Firefox are coming to Win8 ARM. How is that hurting competition? You won't be using the desktop on ARM anyway, save for Office.

The last I heard, Microsoft was effectively banning JIT compilers via API restrictions and reserving those same API's for IE and Microsoft only. That pretty much eliminates all the popular browsers. I very much doubt these companies are going to completely rewrite and maintain their browsers just for WinRT.

No only does this raise anti-trust concerns, but it degrades the user experience as well.

Grand Master

Dot Matrix

Posted
Posted

The last I heard, Microsoft was effectively banning JIT compilers via API restrictions and reserving those same API's for IE and Microsoft only. That pretty much eliminates all the popular browsers. I very much doubt these companies are going to completely rewrite and maintain their browsers just for WinRT.

No only does this raise anti-trust concerns, but it degrades the user experience as well.

There are no anti-trust concerns when WinRT has 0% market share.

Grand Master

simplezz

Posted
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There are no anti-trust concerns when WinRT has 0% market share.

It's about Windows and IE, not WinRT. Unless Microsoft is going to call their tablet OS branding WinRT? If it carries the Windows name and contains IE, it's a potential anti-trust concern to regulators.

Grand Master

Dot Matrix

Posted
Posted

It's about Windows and IE, not WinRT. Unless Microsoft is going to call their tablet OS branding WinRT? If it carries the Windows name and contains IE, it's a potential anti-trust concern to regulators.

They are calling it WinRT.

Of particular concern are the APIs that IE has access to which Microsoft is denying other browsers, including VirtualAlloc / HeapAlloc and friends, CreateNamedPipe, ConnectNamedPipe, DisconnectNamedPipe, CreateProcess, and various others.

These APIs allow for things like making memory executable, a prerequisite for building a JIT [just-in-time compiler]. Without a JIT, it will be impossible to build a modern browser. These APIs also allow for things like spawning additional processes, and communicating between them -- something we use to isolate plug-ins for security and stability purposes and other browsers, including IE, use to isolate tabs and windows for security and stability purposes.

First, Microsoft is limiting plug-ins to pretty much Flash for Metro. Nothing else will be allowed. Why Mozilla is crying fowl over this, I do not know, but Firefox isn't known to be the most speedy of browsers. I don't need ten billion Mozilla Firefox plug-ins junking up my tablet. Second, it wouldn't be too difficult to come up with a new system of tab isolation, something that is system independent.

Windows on Arm is a different OS from x64 Windows. You can't just simply port code over and expect it to work, changes need to be made. The only reason legacy code was moved over was for Office to use, and Explorer. Quite frankly it shouldn't even be there to begin with. WinRT should be strictly Metro, but that's not up to us.

Grand Master

simplezz

Posted
Posted

They are calling it WinRT.

Right. So when these things go on sale, there'll be no mention of Windows then? Regardless, we'll have to wait and see. I have a feeling Microsoft will allow others browsers in the end, whether they want to or not.

Grand Master

Dot Matrix

Posted
Posted

Right. So when these things go on sale, they'll be no mention of Windows then? Regardless, we'll have to wait and see. I have a feeling Microsoft will allow others browsers in the end, whether they want to or not.

That's up to them.

Enthusiast

Josh the Nerd

Posted
Posted

False. Metro apps work on both WinRT and x86. I'm sure Mozilla can come up with something else. That's nothing more than Google crying foul because they can't sink their dirty hands deeper into system processes.

Desktop apps are the ones that need to be recompiled for ARM. But the desktop is only on ARM because of Explorer and Office.

If it uses only WinRT (the API, not short for Windows RT) code, then yes it can be compiled for (languages such as C++) or run on (languages such as C#) both x86 and ARM. However, Metro IE indeed relies on running the Win32-based rendering engine in the background. If you don't believe me, open Metro IE, check Task Manager, and notice you're now running iexplore.exe, a Win32 process.

Grand Master

Dot Matrix

Posted
Posted

If it uses only WinRT (the API, not short for Windows RT) code, then yes it can be compiled for (languages such as C++) or run on (languages such as C#) both x86 and ARM. However, Metro IE indeed relies on running the Win32-based rendering engine in the background. If you don't believe me, open Metro IE, check Task Manager, and notice you're now running iexplore.exe, a Win32 process.

I don't expect that to last long. Something the IE will change at a later date. WinRT should be Metro only, and that it appears to be doing just that.

Grand Master

jakem1

Posted
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Now, fast forward to today and I hear that Aero Glass support is completely dropped.

Can you post a link to an official statement from MS that says explicitly that Glass will not be available at all in Windows 8? All I've read is that Glass won't be the default theme which is quite different from what you're saying. Until the RC is released I don't think we know whether Glass will be available but I suspect it will be there for users to select, just not switched on by default.

I also think you're confused about Windows on ARM and MS's tablet strategy. There will be plenty of x86-based tablets available and all tablets will be able to run the same Metro apps regardless of whether they are ARM or x86-based.

Grand Master

Fraud OS 11

Posted
Posted

Unlike Apple fanboys, Windows fanboys are bold enough to reject certain Microsoft creations.

LMAO that is so true and funny. No offense to Apple fans though, but that is just a very true observation IMHO. Maybe because of the vast number of users.

Grand Master

ViperAFK

Posted
Posted

Can you post a link to an official statement from MS that says explicitly that Glass will not be available at all in Windows 8? All I've read is that Glass won't be the default theme which is quite different from what you're saying. Until the RC is released I don't think we know whether Glass will be available but I suspect it will be there for users to select, just not switched on by default.

I also think you're confused about Windows on ARM and MS's tablet strategy. There will be plenty of x86-based tablets available and all tablets will be able to run the same Metro apps regardless of whether they are ARM or x86-based.

Yeah, I think all we really know is in the latest build the default theme has been updated with a flat, non transparent metro style. All the stuff under the hood that makes aero possible is still there... (DWM). It could be possible that a "classic" aero theme is included, but not default.

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