video This guy makes some good points about Linux

[Motoko.]

Hating on Linux and Google products seems to be a way of life on Neowin. Some people just need to get a grip.

I think you're misunderstanding my intentions by the video I posted.

Communication is the most effective form of remedying any kind of problem. Linux is something we all want to work but it needs some work itself. I'm speaking primarily on its foundations (most of which it does a lot of things very well); but there's plenty for improvement and efficiency.

If we can get the community to focus on such issues as much as possible there's a greater chance for developers to be addressing these issues eventually, at least that is my hope.

[Noir Angel]

Sure, there are a lot of problems with Linux, it's not perfect by any means, I do believe in general there is an attitude where they seem to think you need a million different alternatives for everything, when in reality a few good products for each area would be beneficial. In general i'd say the Linux world needs more collaboration and less competition.

[migo]

Sure, there are a lot of problems with Linux, it's not perfect by any means, I do believe in general there is an attitude where they seem to think you need a million different alternatives for everything, when in reality a few good products for each area would be beneficial. In general i'd say the Linux world needs more collaboration and less competition.

Absolutely. Linux needs to grow first, before it specialises. Once it has a usage share similar to OSX, then it makes sense to start forking again.

[count0nz]

I've had my share of Sound issues too.. but Later years. its been pretty good..

Running Ubuntu (love Gentoo) but just don't have the time. and my ISP has free Ubuntu Repositories (no data charges)

Gameing is geting Better .. Steam + LFD2 etc.

Playing most of my Games ok on Linux.

Do i Agree with the Video .. kinda but i find some distro's better than others.

just my 2c

[JustGeorge]

I've been running Fedora 17 on a spare box for the last week and as a Windows user first, I'm fairly impressed so far. I've read about the underlying problems with sound in Linux, but I can say that when I first played a tune in Rhythmbox, I thought "Damn this mp3 sounds better for some reason". My biggest issue with Linux right now, is that Gnome, while visually pleasing, is a little too dumbed down. Honestly, why is suspend the only option unless I press ALT? Why do I have to right-click on a titlebar to minimize? Why get rid of two visual options but keep the close button? Absolutely no logic in those UI decisions and just screams radical minimalism. I've also got this weird keyboard lag issue. KDE is a bit snappier and more familiar looking as a Windows guy but comes off a bit unpolished. Fedora's KDE spin is ****ing me off with constant SELinux warnings about this and that, that are not seen in Gnome.

I want to give KDE another go in OpenSUSE, but the install always takes a dump because it can't delete my fedora partition for some reason. Neither can Gparted.

[Noir Angel]

I don't use Linux at the moment, but having used 3 generations of ATI cards (4850, 5770, and my current 6950) my biggest problem has always been display drivers.

[ichi]

That's true, although Linux users should think about the bad points of their OS, because on the desktop Linux has seen minimal adoption, while OSX has managed to become a definite 2nd place to Windows (like Bing is to Google).

For all the bad points Linux has, the marketshare difference between it and OSX is counted with a single digit number.

Sure there are handicaps that prevent it's growth, but then again they must be doing something right considering they aren't that far from an OS supported by tons of cash in advertisement and official stores worldwide.

Also Apple is focusing on a single product (like you argue Linux should do) yet they are still down there, far closer to Linux than to Windows.

[Noir Angel]

I'd wager that it's the price of Apple computers rather than their lack of quality that keeps their marketshare pretty low.

[.Neo]

I'd wager that it's the price of Apple computers rather than their lack of quality that keeps their marketshare pretty low.

I'd say a 9-010% market share for a single company selling computers is pretty good.

[Noir Angel]

Sure, it is good. But if they broke into the budget sector of the market, I think their marketshare would increase even more, I think they'd have 20%+ in fact. OSX would still run nicely on a mid range computer so they wouldn't have to compromise quality that much to do it either.

[.Neo]

The company doesn't want to. It's a pretty clear choice they've made. Linux on the other hand has remained completely stagnant over the years when it's free and runs on everything ranging from a ?2200 costing high-end 27-inch iMac to a ?300 budget PC. While Ubuntu in itself has become an okay consumer operating system the apps just suck beyond believe. It just can't get my work done on Linux to the same level of quality I do on OS X or Windows even.

[Noir Angel]

From a usability standpoint I can't really argue, OSX is superior but the vast majority of Linux distributions have no or little commercial backing, and even those that do get very little coverage compared to Windows and Apple. I am personally all for an increase in the usage of Linux, it would keep both parties on their toes.

[migo]

For all the bad points Linux has, the marketshare difference between it and OSX is counted with a single digit number.

Sure there are handicaps that prevent it's growth, but then again they must be doing something right considering they aren't that far from an OS supported by tons of cash in advertisement and official stores worldwide.

Also Apple is focusing on a single product (like you argue Linux should do) yet they are still down there, far closer to Linux than to Windows.

They're down there because catching up to MS is an enormous task, not because they have the wrong strategy.

[migo]

I don't use Linux at the moment, but having used 3 generations of ATI cards (4850, 5770, and my current 6950) my biggest problem has always been display drivers.

There's always some problem like that. What's really a killer is Intel open sources their drivers, but you still have problems with certain integrated intel graphics solutions on Linux. That suggests some serious slacking on the part of the dev community (or everyone's way more interested in getting ATI and NVidia graphics to work to do something much easier with Intel drivers.)

[abysal]

This guy describes exactly how I feel.

[ichi]

They're down there because catching up to MS is an enormous task, not because they have the wrong strategy.

I'm not saying that their strategy is good or bad, just that doing the same with Linux isn't any guarantee of success.

Actually if you want an OS developed in a single straight line you have OSX and Windows already, Linux is a different thing and IMO (although there's obviously room for improvement) it's fine as it is in that regard. There's no need to shoehorn it into something it's not just for the sake of an hypothetical increase of marketshare.

[redvamp128]

if only people would give constructive critiques like they do for Windows or OSX ( for example....)

instead of giving --

it is not good because of X-- X-- X-- and it is terrible..

but instead say that but add the ==

it is not good because of sound and people should pick (just an theoretical example) Alsa because it works on most and there are few systems it does not work on.

or we need to fix x by using y

What that means is yes -- by all means complain but also add the "WHAT" would fix it.

At least when Brian Lundluke (in the videos I posted earlier) says the bad about Linux he lists of strong points of what is working and what is not working and possible ways to fix the issue.

You see all the effort this guy did in complaint could have been directed in ways to fix or improve Linux.

Not to mention this guy was talking about package management and installers and there just as many for Windows and OSX that there are for Linux.

[migo]

Let's look at successful opensource projects that are copying something else that's available commercially, or from a large corporation.

FireFox vs Internet Explorer. Successful because everyone worked together to get it working (in fact I'm sure Konqueror lagged for a while because of this focus), and the customisation is by way of extensions. You'll have processor and OS optimised builds, or slight modifications to be GNU compliant with Iceweasel, but it's all one thing. FireFox actually became a threat to Internet Explorer in a way that Opera never was.

OpenOffice vs Microsoft Office. Successful because everyone pooled their resources into one free office suite. In fact it's a bit disappointing as there's a lack of other free office apps, but it's done a very good job of taking a chunk out of Microsoft's marketshare.

Open source projects have been successful because of people working together to make it work. Hell, the idea behind the GPL is you feed everything that you contribute back to the originators, or at least make it possible for them to benefit from your innovations. Sadly, that's not happening with Linux. Ubuntu forks off Debian, makes improvements but the improvements don't go upstream back to Debian, so Debian devs would have to do extra work trawling through Ubuntu to find the stuff to add back in. Mint forks off Ubuntu and makes improvements to Ubuntu, but doesn't feed them back upstream, so Ubuntu devs would have to go trawling through Mint to find the stuff to add back in.

That's, really, really, inefficient.

[migo]

You see all the effort this guy did in complaint could have been directed in ways to fix or improve Linux.

You have to get people cooperating for that to work. Highlighting the lack of cooperation (I'm assuming that's part of what he complained about) is a good way to maybe get the Linux community cooperating.

[Noir Angel]

I'm not saying that their strategy is good or bad, just that doing the same with Linux isn't any guarantee of success.

Actually if you want an OS developed in a single straight line you have OSX and Windows already, Linux is a different thing and IMO (although there's obviously room for improvement) it's fine as it is in that regard. There's no need to shoehorn it into something it's not just for the sake of an hypothetical increase of marketshare.

And that's precisely why it's not going anywhere at the moment. I love choice, it's great. But it's just as possible to baffle a user with excess choice as it is to not give them enough. And that's my main problem with a lot of FOSS communities there's overemphasis on providing a million and one competing solutions for every idea, which ends up with a lot of spotty quality with the average user not able to tell what option is good and what one is crap. It's my opinion that the Linux communities need to pool their resources and work towards some form of unification. I'm not saying there should be no choice of course but they need to start focusing on quality and usability more.

[redvamp128]

You have to get people cooperating for that to work. Highlighting the lack of cooperation (I'm assuming that's part of what he complained about) is a good way to maybe get the Linux community cooperating.

Nope same old laundry list of complaints...

Command line (which is non-existent in most distributions) in order to install programs, too many sound programs, video players, lack of initial support for all video and sound formats.... you know stuff that when you buy Windows or OSX the licences are paid and or agreed to when they are bought.

[migo]

Too many sound programs and video players is a lack of cooperation.

[migo]

And that's precisely why it's not going anywhere at the moment. I love choice, it's great. But it's just as possible to baffle a user with excess choice as it is to not give them enough. And that's my main problem with a lot of FOSS communities there's overemphasis on providing a million and one competing solutions for every idea, which ends up with a lot of spotty quality with the average user not able to tell what option is good and what one is crap. It's my opinion that the Linux communities need to pool their resources and work towards some form of unification. I'm not saying there should be no choice of course but they need to start focusing on quality and usability more.

There was this April Fool's joke last year that suggested Ubuntu, Gentoo, Fedora and a few other distros were going to pool their resources and put one super distro. It was a really cruel joke as it would be great if that happened and it obviously wasn't happening, but that is also what needs to happen.

[Knife Party]

Most of what he says is utter cr#p. Generalisations, and unfounded reaching here. Get a life. Stay on topic, learn to argue and get a grip.

[Motoko.]

Most of what he says is utter cr#p. Generalisations, and unfounded reaching here. Get a life. Stay on topic, learn to argue and get a grip.

This comment above had all of the following. :rofl: