Reality check - Windows 8 was not made for you

[PGHammer]

So what makes you think that people who have largely ignored the keyboard commands for the last 15 years are all of a sudden going to start using them? If they didn't know they existed before what makes you think they will know now? Unless you think Microsoft is going to provide a cheat sheet of keyboard commands for people to memorize when they purchase Windows 8 or that all the commands will flash across the screen once you first boot up win8 (lol)?

It's amusing that you think the vast majority of people who buy windows 8 will all of a sudden turn into pro keyboard shortcut users.

I'm just as guilty of ignoring them - yet I've actually started using them again. That is precisely my point here, people - we let ourselves get OUT of the habit of using them. The point is there are *cheat sheets* a-plenty already out there - remember, they largely never left. In my case, I have Windows 2000 for Dummies as a deskside reference from my Windows 2000 Professional days (enterprise use - different from home use); the same would apply to any of the Dummies Press books on Windows.

Having a Dummies Press book on your desk doesn't make you a dummy - it makes you human.

I'm talking about those of us that have a pre-XP history (not the teenagers and pre-teens); they will adapt to Modern UI better than we have (even me, and I've had little trouble). So your suggestion is that Microsoft not even try? To basically throw up their hands and surrender? That is very much what it sounds like you are saying to me.

[trag3dy]

I'm just as guilty of ignoring them - yet I've actually started using them again. That is precisely my point here, people - we let ourselves get OUT of the habit of using them. The point is there are *cheat sheets* a-plenty already out there - remember, they largely never left. In my case, I have Windows 2000 for Dummies as a deskside reference from my Windows 2000 Professional days (enterprise use - different from home use); the same would apply to any of the Dummies Press books on Windows.

Having a Dummies Press book on your desk doesn't make you a dummy - it makes you human.

I'm talking about those of us that have a pre-XP history (not the teenagers and pre-teens); they will adapt to Modern UI better than we have (even me, and I've had little trouble). So your suggestion is that Microsoft not even try? To basically throw up their hands and surrender? That is very much what it sounds like you are saying to me.

No, my point was that why do you think most people even know keyboard commands exist? You talk about the default menu structure and blah blah blah. The big giant gaping huge flaw in your logic is that you assume everyone in the world who will be using windows 8 will have at least a little bit of the knowledge that you do. Most people don't and won't so when you go on and on about this whole mouse-biased nonsense it's makes me wonder what kind of interactions you've actually had with the "average user" and their computers.

No, my suggestion to Microsoft would be to give people the options to use their computer how they want to. Not forcing them into the direction they want them to go. That's beating a dead horse though because "windows 8 wasn't made for me".

[PGHammer]

No, my point was that why do you think most people even know keyboard commands exist? You talk about the default menu structure and blah blah blah. The big giant gaping huge flaw in your logic is that you assume everyone in the world who will be using windows 8 will have at least a little bit of the knowledge that you do. Most people don't and won't so when you go on and on about this whole mouse-biased nonsense it's makes me wonder what kind of interactions you've actually had with the "average user" and their computers.

No, my suggestion to Microsoft would be to give people the options to use their computer how they want to. Not forcing them into the direction they want them to go. That's beating a dead horse though because "windows 8 wasn't made for me".

I'm saying that if you have a pre-XP Windows history (and most power users, let alone Neowinians, certainly do) they doubtless remember quite a few of those same shortcuts from somewhere.

I'm simply pointing out that if one (or more) of those keyboard shortcuts tickles the chemical memory, there's a good reason for it.

No - in reality, what you are suggesting is that they ignore the trend away from single-purpose UIs/UXes and stick with the familiar.

Even *Android* has moved away from a single-purpose (touch in Android's case) UI/UX.

[trag3dy]

I'm saying that if you have a pre-XP Windows history (and most power users, let alone Neowinians, certainly do) they doubtless remember quite a few of those same shortcuts from somewhere.

I'm simply pointing out that if one (or more) of those keyboard shortcuts tickles the chemical memory, there's a good reason for it.

No - in reality, what you are suggesting is that they ignore the trend away from single-purpose UIs/UXes and stick with the familiar.

Even *Android* has moved away from a single-purpose (touch in Android's case) UI/UX.

Okay. Fine. Power users. Do you even realize how small the %% of people that will be using win8 will actually be power users?

No - in reality, I'm suggesting they give people options to use their computer how they want. Not force them to use their computer in one specific way. How you are failing to understand that is beyond me. If people choose to use what they are familiar with instead of the modern crap Microsoft is forcing on us then it's clearly not the future MS was hoping for.

After a person purchases windows 8 why do you care how they use their computer? More specifically, why should Microsoft care how they use their computer? My opinion is that they shouldn't.

[NEVER85]

Okay. Fine. Power users. Do you even realize how small the %% of people that will be using win8 will actually be power users?

A good number? Most users will just be using the OS their computers came with, which, since 2009, has been Windows 7, and will continue to be for months to come.

[trag3dy]

A good number? Most users will just be using the OS their computers came with, which, since 2009, has been Windows 7, and will continue to be for months to come.

Over the lifetime of the OS? A small number.

[NEVER85]

Over the lifetime of the OS? A small number.

Possible if said power users decide to stick with 7 and make it the "new XP", although I hope that's where the similarities end when it comes to that archaic OS.

[BajiRav]

No, my point was that why do you think most people even know keyboard commands exist? You talk about the default menu structure and blah blah blah. The big giant gaping huge flaw in your logic is that you assume everyone in the world who will be using windows 8 will have at least a little bit of the knowledge that you do. Most people don't and won't so when you go on and on about this whole mouse-biased nonsense it's makes me wonder what kind of interactions you've actually had with the "average user" and their computers.

No, my suggestion to Microsoft would be to give people the options to use their computer how they want to. Not forcing them into the direction they want them to go. That's beating a dead horse though because "windows 8 wasn't made for me".

Are you talking about yourself or "most users"? Let's just leave "most users" or "average users" out of this discussion. More often than not, they adapt to changes much faster than most "power users" and it is pointless to paint them in broader strokes. They don't care about options that you want.

[winlonghorn]

People sit there and often need to have multiple applications open for their work. We don't all sit there playing angry birds and using fart apps ;)

I never said people sit there and play Angry Birds or use fart apps! :) It makes sense to have 2 - 3 apps open at a time, but I think it gets a bit ridiculous beyond that. After all, how much can a person do at one time? ;) That is my point!

[PGHammer]

Okay. Fine. Power users. Do you even realize how small the %% of people that will be using win8 will actually be power users?

No - in reality, I'm suggesting they give people options to use their computer how they want. Not force them to use their computer in one specific way. How you are failing to understand that is beyond me. If people choose to use what they are familiar with instead of the modern crap Microsoft is forcing on us then it's clearly not the future MS was hoping for.

After a person purchases windows 8 why do you care how they use their computer? More specifically, why should Microsoft care how they use their computer? My opinion is that they shouldn't.

By going with a multi-input UI, they are doing exactly that.

By referring to it as *crap*, you are basically saying that touch support has no place in Windows.

I have nary an issue using Windows 8, and I don't have touch support at all - I'm running on a desktop.

Apparently you DO care, since you want touch support banished.

You claim one thing - however, your own words (and actions) say the reverse

[FloatingFatMan]

By going with a multi-input UI, they are doing exactly that.

By referring to it as *crap*, you are basically saying that touch support has no place in Windows.

I have nary an issue using Windows 8, and I don't have touch support at all - I'm running on a desktop.

Apparently you DO care, since you want touch support banished.

You claim one thing - however, your own words (and actions) say the reverse

Touch support absolutely has a place in windows, but I don't think the desktop is that place.

It's just impossible to use one at a conventional screen without seriously arm strain very quickly. And if you have a monitor at keyboard level, you'll get neck strain looking down at it. I don't think there's any comfortable position for a desktop to use touch for any length of time. Minority Report may have looked great, but that guy operating it would have been in agony!

[BajiRav]

Touch support absolutely has a place in windows, but I don't think the desktop is that place.

It's just impossible to use one at a conventional screen without seriously arm strain very quickly. And if you have a monitor at keyboard level, you'll get neck strain looking down at it. I don't think there's any comfortable position for a desktop to use touch for any length of time. Minority Report may have looked great, but that guy operating it would have been in agony!

Minority Report job came with a built-in health benefit. Didn't you notice how all of them had nice muscular arms? :p

[PGHammer]

Touch support absolutely has a place in windows, but I don't think the desktop is that place.

It's just impossible to use one at a conventional screen without seriously arm strain very quickly. And if you have a monitor at keyboard level, you'll get neck strain looking down at it. I don't think there's any comfortable position for a desktop to use touch for any length of time. Minority Report may have looked great, but that guy operating it would have been in agony!

You mean it's improbable (not impossible) if you are using one at a conventional desk if you're sitting - touch-screen displays (where they are primarily used) are at kiosks mostly - far from a conventional location.

Not all locations that people compute in (or wish to) are conventional - the increased deployment of such kiosks in hotels (and quite pricey ones at that) speaks to that.

[Shane Nokes]

All the people who are advocating that users should be able to use their PC any way they want...

You do realize there's a huge fault in that premise right? The thought that you use your PC in any way you want is an illusion. PC's have a very structured usage form. We are so used to a specific method that when things change we think it's a loss of ability to do what we want.

In fact you are never able to do what you want, but mold your thinking to fit what the machine can do. When a machine behaves a specific way and then that changes it can be jarring, but it's not down to a lack of ability to do things any way you want.

It's just a change in the means of control. I'm wondering how many people are going to understand this, and how many are going to totally reject my point. ;)

[FloatingFatMan]

You mean it's improbable (not impossible) if you are using one at a conventional desk if you're sitting - touch-screen displays (where they are primarily used) are at kiosks mostly - far from a conventional location.

Not all locations that people compute in (or wish to) are conventional - the increased deployment of such kiosks in hotels (and quite pricey ones at that) speaks to that.

A kiosk is hardly a daily use, all day, location.

[trag3dy]

By going with a multi-input UI, they are doing exactly that.

By referring to it as *crap*, you are basically saying that touch support has no place in Windows.

I have nary an issue using Windows 8, and I don't have touch support at all - I'm running on a desktop.

Apparently you DO care, since you want touch support banished.

You claim one thing - however, your own words (and actions) say the reverse

I honestly don't get how I can type "A" and you read "Z".

I said I want options so people can use their computer how they want, in terms of what we have, and what we've had. Not I want options so people can use their computer how I want. I have never once said I want options taken away. In fact it's just the opposite. And I've never even mentioned touch support so I'm not sure where you got that from.

[+Fahim S. MVC]

All the people who are advocating that users should be able to use their PC any way they want...

You do realize there's a huge fault in that premise right? The thought that you use your PC in any way you want is an illusion. PC's have a very structured usage form. We are so used to a specific method that when things change we think it's a loss of ability to do what we want.

In fact you are never able to do what you want, but mold your thinking to fit what the machine can do. When a machine behaves a specific way and then that changes it can be jarring, but it's not down to a lack of ability to do things any way you want.

It's just a change in the means of control. I'm wondering how many people are going to understand this, and how many are going to totally reject my point. ;)

This! Very insightful.

[PGHammer]

A kiosk is hardly a daily use, all day, location.

Never said it was.

However, it is a location.

One thing Windows *historically* has been very good at is being usable at not just *conventional* locations - after all, laptops (let alone notebooks and netbooks) haven't always been around. Now, we see them as old hat.

[Shane Nokes]

This! Very insightful.

Thank you. :)

It's an observation that I've tried to express before, but never did take the time to sit down and write out properly.

It's a more expanded form of my, "Things change, so we either adapt or get left behind," philosophy.

Hopefully more people will get a chance to see the areas where Modern can really shine soon. :)

[trag3dy]

All the people who are advocating that users should be able to use their PC any way they want...

You do realize there's a huge fault in that premise right? The thought that you use your PC in any way you want is an illusion. PC's have a very structured usage form. We are so used to a specific method that when things change we think it's a loss of ability to do what we want.

In fact you are never able to do what you want, but mold your thinking to fit what the machine can do. When a machine behaves a specific way and then that changes it can be jarring, but it's not down to a lack of ability to do things any way you want.

It's just a change in the means of control. I'm wondering how many people are going to understand this, and how many are going to totally reject my point. ;)

Okay. Maybe "doing things the way we want" is not the correct combination of words. A better way to put it would be "doing things the way we're used to" vs "doing things the modern way".

My point remains the same though.

[Shane Nokes]

Okay. Maybe "doing things the way we want" is not the correct combination of words. A better way to put it would be "doing things the way we're used to" vs "doing things the modern way".

My point remains the same though.

Which is where my point comes in...

If we only ever do things the way we're used to doing them we would never learn how to do anything new.

Change doesn't have to be viewed as negative, even if sometimes it can be inconvenient. Sometimes that inconvenience leads to something better than you imagined.

Life is like that, and it applies here as well.

[nekkidtruth]

Hopefully more people will get a chance to see the areas where Modern can really shine soon. :)

The problem isn't that people don't believe Modern can shine. We know exactly where it can really shine. On a desktop PC is not where it shines. Which is OUR point ;)

[Shane Nokes]

The problem isn't that people don't believe Modern can shine. We know exactly where it can really shine. On a desktop PC is not where it shines. Which is OUR point ;)

Which is of course an opinion. ;)

I happen to have the opinion that it does shine on a desktop...in fact the desktop is currently the only place that I use Windows 8...

I don't have a tablet or touch-screen PC of any kind at the moment.

[nekkidtruth]

Which is of course an opinion. ;)

I happen to have the opinion that it does shine on a desktop...in fact the desktop is currently the only place that I use Windows 8...

I don't have a tablet or touch-screen PC of any kind at the moment.

Except it's not opinion. Metro/Modern/Whatever it's called this week, was specifically designed for touch-based devices (aka. Phones and tablets). So it's not opinion, it's reality. The only reason it's on the desktop right now is because they HAVE to start somewhere to get to where they're headed (a unified approach across multiple devices). I'd say no one is disputing that, but I can't speak for others. The fact remains, it's not currently not optimized for a desktop therefore it's impossible for it to "shine". That's fact, not opinion.

[grayscale]

Except it's not opinion. Metro/Modern/Whatever it's called this week, was specifically designed for touch-based devices (aka. Phones and tablets). So it's not opinion, it's reality. The only reason it's on the desktop right now is because they HAVE to start somewhere to get to where they're headed (a unified approach across multiple devices). I'd say no one is disputing that, but I can't speak for others. The fact remains, it's not currently not optimized for a desktop therefore it's impossible for it to "shine". That's fact, not opinion.

ht n

If we're talking about Metro as a whole, I agree. They may not intend for Metro to be just touch-based right now (I doubt it) but most of the apps are really designed for touch screen devices. I'd disagree if we have to include the start screen, though. It may be touch-based but it is something that can be, and sometimes better when used on a desktop so I don't think that is something that is developed for touch devices mainly.

*Let's not start another start menu debate. I'm just pointing out that imo, Metro apps as of the moment is designed to cater touch-based devices. Maybe, someone will develop an app that will cater desktop users as well but there's no point of doing that when you could just develop a desktop application. It's the sudden jump to touch-based apps that, I think, makes other people look the other way to the point that they seem to forget that the desktop is still there and most if not all (not until they are updated to be compatible to the new OS) of their desktop applications still work.