Sony issuing lifetime PSN bans to PS3 hackers

[Shane Nokes]

I'm not justifying anything- so there's no need to read something in to the posts that isn't there.

They're banned for using non-MS firmware, not because they can cheat. If you look up the T&Cs, there's nothing there about cheating:

We may, among other things: (i) restrict or limit access to the Services; (ii) retrieve information from the Authorized Device and any connected peripheral device used to log onto the Services as necessary to operate and protect the security of the Services, and to enforce this Agreement; and (iii) upgrade, modify, withdraw, suspend, or discontinue any functionality or feature of the Services, or any hardware or software associated with the Services or with an Authorized Device, from time to time without notice. We may do so by the automatic download of related software directly to your Authorized Device, including software that prevents you from accessing the Services, playing pirated games, or using unauthorized hardware peripheral devices

Terms of Use, not T&C.

Also there is very clear language as regards cheating. It is not allowed, and IS considered a serious offense.

[Brandon H Supervisor]

The simple fact is there is no way to efficiently monitor a whole load of "we'll promise to be good" custom firmware users

this is the problem right here. Sony and MS need to find a better way to do this

if something as simple as a minecraft server can be setup to detect mods used for cheating and kick/ban the player I don't see why it can't be done on a larger scale with PS3 and Xbox games

the fact is, Sony and MS seem to be taking the lazy way out instead of finding a better and more permanent solution to the problem

just because you mod your firmware doesn't mean you should be auto banned because you "could possibly cheat" or "play pirated games". there should be a way to detect those things, and then at THAT point the account and console is banned

[saltysaltybk]

Terms of Use, not T&C.

Also there is very clear language as regards cheating. It is not allowed, and IS considered a serious offense.

Nope, nothing in here about cheating: http://www.xbox.com/...B/legal/livetou

Oh, and an "offence" implies legality.

[compl3x]

this is the problem right here. Sony and MS need to find a better way to do this

What, like gain omniscience?

[Shane Nokes]

Nope, nothing in here about cheating: http://www.xbox.com/...B/legal/livetou

Oh, and an "offence" implies legality.

The Code of Conduct is also part of the Terms of Use.

http://www.xbox.com/en-US/Legal/CodeOfConduct

I helped write it...so I know precisely what is in there.

Arguing with me on what I wrote won't get you very far. :p

[The Evil Overlord]

A lot of people have already said this, but I'm going to say it anyway...

It's about time! Microsoft has been doing this a while now.

Finally, maybe I can play Killzone and not have to worry about the online cheaters spoiling the game for everyone else.

A Question, ok so if you are legally buying your games, and do nothing wrong AND use CFW, you run the risk of getting banned.... ok...

So, if you're not actually doing anything illegal or something that can violate (even a part of) the terms based on your preferred choice of console, why bother to use mods in the first place?

[Brandon H Supervisor]

A Question, ok so if you are legally buying your games, and do nothing wrong AND use CFW, you run the risk of getting banned.... ok...

So, if you're not actually doing anything illegal or something that can violate (even a part of) the terms based on your preferred choice of console, why bother to use mods in the first place?

to be able to run extra things on your console such as Linux or XBMC or even custom themes for example

[Shane Nokes]

The rules are the rules. Putting an account on a modified console or putting a modded console online violates those rules.

My advice is the same as always...if you don't like the rules play in a different sandbox. :)

[The Evil Overlord]

to be able to run extra things on your console such as Linux or XBMC or even custom themes for example

Ah, ok, (never done it so didn't know)

[Brandon H Supervisor]

Ah, ok, (never done it so didn't know)

yeah, there's plenty of things you can do by modding a console besides just cheating at and pirating games, but the small group that does do those two things has to ruin it for everyone :/ (and this is why we can't have nice things)

[HawkMan]

I'm sorry, but there is no large group of people WP mod their console to apply themes, and run Linux. The large majority of those who mod the Xbox, pretty much very close to allot them, do it to pirate.

[Brandon H Supervisor]

I'm sorry, but there is no large group of people WP mod their console to apply themes, and run Linux. The large majority of those who mod the Xbox, pretty much very close to allot them, do it to pirate.

that's true now a days BECAUSE of Sony and MS being so strict. the ones that used to mod their consoles for legit reasons now find that it's not worth the risk anymore. which is why it's mostly pirates anymore

[Shane Nokes]

that's true now a days BECAUSE of Sony and MS being so strict. the ones that used to mod their consoles for legit reasons now find that it's not worth the risk anymore. which is why it's mostly pirates anymore

Legit folks never put those consoles online to begin with.

Microsoft has always been strict as regards modified hardware and software connecting to the service. That's not going to change.

[Brandon H Supervisor]

Legit folks never put those consoles online to begin with.

Microsoft has always been strict as regards modified hardware and software connecting to the service. That's not going to change.

you're probably right, but it'd still be nice if Sony and MS could find a way to detect those with malicious intents but still leave those that aren't doing anything wrong alone

edit: thinking about it, as far as your first statement goes, those that hack their console to pirate usually don't put them online either, so that point is kinda moot. it's mostly the cheaters that are the problem, and like i said in a couple posts up, you would think they'd be able to detect the actual cheating in game without having to just go after every modified console

but there's not really much I can do about it, just wishful thinking I guess

[Shane Nokes]

you're probably right, but it'd still be nice if Sony and MS could find a way to detect those with malicious intents but still leave those that aren't doing anything wrong alone

Why?

The console or profile are modified. That means MS has unsigned code connecting to their online service.

Part of what makes LIVE secure is them not allowing modified hardware or unsigned code.

They should trade security because you want to run unsigned code that can do serious harm if it is infected and can spread?

Sorry, but no. That's a horrible idea.

There is a reason why all the apps are fully sandboxed and require proper digital signatures.

I can't go into more details regarding how or what they do for detection and such. I can say that the modded folks online aren't just sitting there being innocent.

I was one of the folks handling this exact situation. This is a huge chunk of how I've spent the last few years...tackling this issue on LIVE.

[Brandon H Supervisor]

Why?

The console or profile are modified. That means MS has unsigned code connecting to their online service.

Part of what makes LIVE secure is them not allowing modified hardware or unsigned code.

They should trade security because you want to run unsigned code that can do serious harm if it is infected and can spread?

Sorry, but no. That's a horrible idea.

There is a reason why all the apps are fully sandboxed and require proper digital signatures.

my question to you is how would changing what your home screen looks like to you or installing XBMC affect the Xbox Live side of things? if done correctly they should be able to be kept completely separate and not effect security or that portion of the code that connects to the online service (I would think anyway)

(btw I'm very noob at programing so if this idea is just plain impossible I apologize, like i said, just wishful thinking)

[Shane Nokes]

my question to you is how would changing what your home screen looks like to you or installing XBMC affect the Xbox Live side of things? if done correctly they should be able to be kept completely separate and not effect security or that portion of the code that connects to the online service (I would think anyway)

(btw I'm very noob at programing so if this idea is just plain impossible I apologize, like i said, just wishful thinking)

So here is where the problem comes in.

First you modify the hardware and install a modified firmware.

Who wrote it, and what exactly is coded into it? Can you guarantee 0 malicious code? Would you know if there was?

So let's just say there is a piece of bad code there. Now it has direct access to LIVE. Now what about each additional piece of code you want to install to do various things.

Can you verify the integrity of that code and the security of the service?

No.

MS controls things for a reason, and a huge portion of that is security.

[Yogurtmaster]

Source: http://www.computera...to-ps3-hackers/

It took them this long to respond. It's almost the end of the PS3's life for goodness sake.

[saltysaltybk]

The Code of Conduct is also part of the Terms of Use.

http://www.xbox.com/...l/CodeOfConduct

I helped write it...so I know precisely what is in there.

Arguing with me on what I wrote won't get you very far. :p

How very conceited. Code of conduct != TOS.

And if you must know, you'll feel great knowing that I also used to work for MS- Business Apps division, churning out the predecessor to Dynamics.

[HawkMan]

that's true now a days BECAUSE of Sony and MS being so strict. the ones that used to mod their consoles for legit reasons now find that it's not worth the risk anymore. which is why it's mostly pirates anymore

Well MS never sold the original XBOX at a loss so that people could hack it and make it run XBMC. besides, as many that ran XBMC back in the day, most of them also played pirated games and I'd say most of them during the lifetime of the xbox was done for pirating anyway, the rest was bonus. after the 360, most where used "primarily" for XBMC sure, but again, not intended purpose and not what it was sold for. you can't complain that MS locks down their heavily subsidized hardware so you can't use it for non intended purposes that don't make them any money

my question to you is how would changing what your home screen looks like to you or installing XBMC affect the Xbox Live side of things? if done correctly they should be able to be kept completely separate and not effect security or that portion of the code that connects to the online service (I would think anyway)

(btw I'm very noob at programing so if this idea is just plain impossible I apologize, like i said, just wishful thinking)

In the early days of the 360 there was talks of a officially signed XBMC port, and MS was even on board willing to help and sign it. it simply vanished after a while though, I guess the devs didn't want to handle an actual real project with actual expectations and requirements.

[Shane Nokes]

How very conceited. Code of conduct != TOS.

And if you must know, you'll feel great knowing that I also used to work for MS- Business Apps division, churning out the predecessor to Dynamics.

Awesome...always good to run into someone that has worked on projects there as well.

I apologize but again will have to point out you are in error.

Section 1.2 of the Terms of Use is as follows:

Are there additional terms for using the Services? Our goal is to create a safer and more secure environment so when using the Services, users must abide by these terms, the Xbox LIVE usage rules (http://www.xbox.com/usagerules), the Microsoft Anti-Spam Policy (http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=117951) and the Code of Conduct (http://www.xbox.com/legal/codeofconduct), which are included in this Agreement by reference (the ?Agreement?).

The Code of Conduct is official and part of the Terms of Use.

Should I call you conceited if you correct misinformation I spread about a project you work on?

[+InsaneNutter MVC]

I'm all for console modding in regards to allowing homebrew, apps, emulators and even modding games, its can be fun to play a modded game. However i dont agree in playing modified games on Xbox Live, people will cheat and spoil it for everyone else.

Take CoD 4 on Xbox, anyone can use mods on that to downrank people, and mess with legit players who just want to play / enjoy the game.

People can't be trusted with modded consoles on Xbox Live, I agree they should be out right banned. If you want to play modded games enough people are playing on XBS Connect and other services that allow system linked games to be played over the internet.

If its possible to abuse something people will until they are totally locked out.

To get the best of both worlds have two consoles like a lot of people do, or dualboot.

[The Evil Overlord]

I'm all for console modding in regards to allowing homebrew, apps, emulators and even modding games, its can be fun to play a modded game. However i dont agree in playing modified games on Xbox Live, people will cheat and spoil it for everyone else.

Take CoD 4 on Xbox, anyone can use mods on that to downrank people, and mess with legit players who just want to play / enjoy the game.

People can't be trusted with modded consoles on Xbox Live, I agree they should be out right banned. If you want to play modded games enough people are playing on XBS Connect and other services that allow system linked games to be played over the internet.

If its possible to abuse something people will until they are totally locked out.

To get the best of both worlds have two consoles like a lot of people do, or dualboot.

I kinda agree with this to a point, Like those Action Replay cards you used to be able to get for the PSX etc... if you're going to cheat offline and never go online, then I say, fair enough, you're not hurting anyone else.

But the online cheaters have seriously affected non cheating online gamers who now no longer play because of it.

[HawkMan]

Xbox has india games for homebrew, no need to mod.

[+InsaneNutter MVC]

Xbox has india games for homebrew, no need to mod.

I did think that was going to be great at fist, however stuff created in XNA Game Studio has limited access to hardware and resources on the 360. Plus you have to pay each year to even use it from what i remember.