VGLeaks: First look as Durango XDK (always connected, kinect required)

[TheLegendOfMart]

All of them probably, but now both consoles will have Blu-Ray devs can start making use of the space.

[HawkMan]

So you went from "errrr no" to "now and then", people like you are the exact reason I post on other forums now, you go out of your way to point out that someone is wrong even when you yourself are wrong and then refuse to admit it, jog on.

no, I didn't. you where the one who claimed a lot of games where up to 50GB big. which they are not, and games that are 20GB because the BD disk is padded with the same data 2 or 3 times don't really count as 20GB games.

PC game sizes are more representative of the size of next gen games anyway, as PC games are always current games, which is what next gen will be. and I can fit a lot of pc games on 500GB-1TB

[HawkMan]

How much of the space on some of those larger ones is simply from not bothering to compress various assets(audio/cinematics/etc) because they had a load of excess space to use?

Depends on the asset. unlike what a lot of gamers think. textures are not stored uncompressed on disk, EVER, unless the developer is a complete utter moron. since all graphics cards for the last... 10 years or so, has supported compressed textures in memory. and even with 2GB graphics cards, textures are so huge, you need to have them compressed to fit all those huge size textures. So the only thing you do by storing uncompressed textures, is increased load times, increased GPU load by havign to live compress the textures, unknown texture quality, as the GPU will set the quality, whereas pre-compresed textures the artists have full control of the quality of the compressed textures and and make sure it doesn't have errors or artifacts or lost details.

for Audio it's a bit hit and miss. but then you have people who think that all the in game audio is stored in pre recorder 5 channel files as well, when it's in fact stored as one channel files and the surround is live calculated by the engine.

what usually takes up a lot of space on disks is pre-rendered FMV's which is usually a JRPG thing. though games have proven that FMV's are bettered done in game engine nowadays, and that'll be even more so in next gen.

[Manarift]

Always on means the system wont work unless your connected to the internet that's including the os it self it also means you cant mod the Xbox to have a chip inside to play non region specific games eaither

[Lamp0]

but clearly dual layer discs were holding games back.

I don't think that's true at all.

You listed a bunch of games which have huge files sizes compared to anything on Xbox360, & yet none of those games are comparitively advanced.

It's not like bigger file size = better graphics.

[Andre S. Veteran]

This is awesome. The Kinect integration and its higher quality sensors and infrared lighting should make it much better used in games and other control panels. I don't understand the complains about it, if you want to control everything with the controller you'll certainly can. Nobody said the console was kinect-only. :rolleyes: Also the requirement to install games on disk just guarantees better performance and allows developers to assume fast file transfers and stop wasting time developing stupidly complicated file streaming schemes to optimize for a very slow drive. The dedicated engines and process units for various things will mean 100% of the CPU and GPU power will go towards making awesome happen.

The issue for many isn't power or being online, it's the requirement to be online connected to big brother for the console to function. And if people don't like it, the don't have to and may not buy it. It's that simple.

Who said the console would cease the function if it's not connected? Just like Steam it most probably has an offline mode. It just takes advantage of your internet connection whenever it can.

[DirtyLarry Veteran]

I don't think that's true at all.

You listed a bunch of games which have huge files sizes compared to anything on Xbox360, & yet none of those games are comparitively advanced.

It's not like bigger file size = better graphics.

Actually it might. A decent amount of those games he listed from the PS3 run at a slightly higher resolution then 360 games. Somebody took the time to figure out the native resolution of most games on each system here. The games that do run at a similar resolution on the 360 also sometimes come with two disks (Halo 4).

I think it is crazy to say developers will not benefit from larger disk capacity.

This is awesome. The Kinect integration and its higher quality sensors and infrared lighting should make it much better used in games and other control panels. I don't understand the complains about it, if you want to control everything with the controller you'll certainly can. Nobody said the console was kinect-only. :rolleyes: Also the requirement to install games on disk just guarantees better performance and allows developers to assume fast file transfers and stop wasting time developing stupidly complicated file streaming schemes to optimize for a very slow drive. The dedicated engines and process units for various things will mean 100% of the CPU and GPU power will go towards making awesome happen.

Who said the console would cease the function if it's not connected? Just like Steam it most probably has an offline mode. It just takes advantage of your internet connection whenever it can.[/size]

No, but they have said Kinect MUST be plugged in. Of course this is all just rumor, but I believe that is why some people, myself included, are not to excited. Just another peripheral to worry about where the hell to put it. In a college dorm I would imagine that is not something people worry about, but in a house where your wife HATES peripherals and wires and controllers, yeah, I am not sure where I would put it if it always needs to be plugged in without unhooking some current stuff. Not the end of the world by any means, but just seems weird to force it as being necessary. And not for nothing, I did not pick up a Kinect this generation, and I pretty much pick up every gadget related to gaming known to man, as it had no appeal to me at all, especially from a gaming standpoint. So I just hope developers only implement it when needed, and do not force it on every single game just because they can.

[MorganX]

Who said the console would cease the function if it's not connected? Just like Steam it most probably has an offline mode. It just takes advantage of your internet connection whenever it can.

No one. We're all speculating on leaked information. However, it is more than that. That is what you have right now when you connect your Xbox to the Internet. Let us be real, the discussion about always on being "required" is based around presumed DRM preventing use of use games. Therefore, you must be connected to play said games. If that is the case, and PS4 does not do this, I will go PS4 for that and other reasons. At least that's what I feel. When it comes down to it I don't know if I can let go of the Xbox Controller or Achievements. The Xbox controller is like the UI in Windows OS. It can make or break you. In this case, not having it, could be a deal breaker regardless.

I seriously miss Wipeout HD (there are no acceptable clones) and God of War, and I definitely want to play The Last of Us, this generation or the next. I just don't know that I care to play them without an Xbox Wireless Gamepad :/

Do you have to be such an insufferable arrogant know it all, all the time, its getting boring.

Uncharted - 22GB

Uncharted 2 - 23GB

Uncharted 3 - 51GB

Gran Turismo 5 - 20GB

Killzone 3 - 46GB

God of War 3 - 45GB

God of War Ascension - 38GB

Heavy Rain - 21GB

Metal Gear Solid 4 - 28GB

I never said it was all game assets, but clearly dual layer discs were holding games back.

I will concede this point. I think several times last year 360 devs complained about the lack of space on DVD9. Can't remember details, but it happened. And yeah, loading multiple DVDs does get tiresome as does hearing the drive. Blu-Ray in the next Xbox is nothing but a good thing all the way around. HD-DVD has been dead for some time and it's time to just concede this issue which MS is doing to everyone's benefit.

[Andre S. Veteran]

No one. We're all speculating on leaked information. However, it is more than that. That is what you have right now when you connect your Xbox to the Internet. Let us be real, the discussion about always on being "required" is based around presumed DRM preventing use of use games. Therefore, you must be connected to play said games.

I don't think anything suggests that every game will be online-only on Xbox Next. I agree that it would be a very bad thing, but I'm not worried that it'll happen. The always-online capacity of the console is just another service available to games and applications, it'll be up to each individual game to decide how it wants to use this capacity.

[HawkMan]

Always on means the system wont work unless your connected to the internet that's including the os it self it also means you cant mod the Xbox to have a chip inside to play non region specific games eaither

No it doesn't, it could mean it, but nothing indicates that in these 1 year old documents.

[Yusuf M. Veteran]

The quote below doesn't suggest that you need to be online in order to play a multi- or single-player game. It suggests that the console will never turn off completely if it has power. That will allow for quick startup and background processes to continue while you're not using it (e.g. updates).

Durango will implement different power states so that it can always be powered on, but will draw minimal electricity when not in use. The console will be ready instantly when users want to play, and will always maintain a network connection so that console software and games are always current. With this 'Always On, Always Connected' design, users will quickly and easily enjoy their connected entertainment experiences, with no waiting for the console to restart or install updates.

[HawkMan]

Actually it might. A decent amount of those games he listed from the PS3 run at a slightly higher resolution then 360 games. Somebody took the time to figure out the native resolution of most games on each system here. The games that do run at a similar resolution on the 360 also sometimes come with two disks (Halo 4).

I think it is crazy to say developers will not benefit from larger disk capacity.

Errr. size on disk has no relevance to what resolution the game runs at, in fact chances are a game with smaller disk size would in fact run at higher resolution on the console, and last I checked more games ran at high er res on the 360 than the PS3, especially multi platform games.

that argument makes no sense at all.

The main point is that despite the larger disk size, the current gen consoles, and especially the PS3 with it's lower graphics memory, didn't have enough memory to make use of high res assets in any case so the only games that ACTUALLY made use of the disks were games with high res pre rendered FMV's.

No one. We're all speculating on leaked information. However, it is more than that. That is what you have right now when you connect your Xbox to the Internet. Let us be real, the discussion about always on being "required" is based around presumed DRM preventing use of use games. Therefore, you must be connected to play said games. If that is the case, and PS4 does not do this, I will go PS4 for that and other reasons. At least that's what I feel. When it comes down to it I don't know if I can let go of the Xbox Controller or Achievements. The Xbox controller is like the UI in Windows OS. It can make or break you. In this case, not having it, could be a deal breaker regardless.

As I've said before. MS will ONLY do used games lockout/always on "DRM"(It's not DRM) IF one of two cases apply

1: Sony does it as well (do not that Sony has not denied their console will require always on, or that it won't block used games, they merely said it "can" play used games)

2: EA (they're the only ones big enough and with enough power), gives MS full or minimum 6 month exclusivity as long as they are the only console allowing used sales block and or always online.

in case 1 , it doesn't matter either way, in case 2 MS scores big, massively big, and win the war before it's even started.

The quote below doesn't suggest that you need to be online in order to play a multi- or single-player game. It suggests that the console will never turn off completely if it has power. That will allow for quick startup and background processes to continue while you're not using it (e.g. updates).

It's all about updates and push updates/content.

"from your previous gaming we've figured out you might like to try out this Batman Kicks Gothams ass demo".

[ahhell]

I don't think that's true at all.

You listed a bunch of games which have huge files sizes compared to anything on Xbox360, & yet none of those games are comparitively advanced.

It's not like bigger file size = better graphics.

This.

Most of those games use uncompressed audio just because they can. Sony used to use the "OMG 50GB Blu-ray disks!111!11 XBOX 9GB DVDs LOL!!11" nonsense in their advertising. :rolleyes:

Who the **** cares anyway? Both new systems will have huge capacity opitical drives + installs so it's a moot point.

[The_Decryptor Veteran]

Actually it might. A decent amount of those games he listed from the PS3 run at a slightly higher resolution then 360 games. Somebody took the time to figure out the native resolution of most games on each system here. The games that do run at a similar resolution on the 360 also sometimes come with two disks (Halo 4).

I think it is crazy to say developers will not benefit from larger disk capacity.

...

With Halo 4, the second disk is purely multiplayer content, and the most likely reason it's separate is so that you can install the disk to your console (I don't think the Xbox supports installing specific content from a disk to the HDD, it's an all or nothing type affair)

Edit: That was a complaint about Reach (and other games), if you wanted to copy the MP maps to your hard drive you also had to copy all the SP maps as well.

[MorganX]

I don't think anything suggests that every game will be online-only on Xbox Next. I agree that it would be a very bad thing, but I'm not worried that it'll happen. The always-online capacity of the console is just another service available to games and applications, it'll be up to each individual game to decide how it wants to use this capacity.

Yeah, we'll have to wait and see, but I'd put my money on it's ALL about DRM.

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

With Halo 4, the second disk is purely multiplayer content, and the most likely reason it's separate is so that you can install the disk to your console (I don't think the Xbox supports installing specific content from a disk to the HDD, it's an all or nothing type affair)

Edit: That was a complaint about Reach (and other games), if you wanted to copy the MP maps to your hard drive you also had to copy all the SP maps as well.

Or it's because it needed 8GB

Microsoft has reiterated its previous statements that the multiplayer component of 343 Industries' upcoming shooter, Halo 4, will require at least 8GB of free space.

http://uk.gamespot.com/news/halo-4-will-ship-on-two-discs-6398292

[Yogurtmaster]

The fact that the (worthless) kinect is forced upon you and included in the box makes the earlier reports of the xbox 3 being significantly underpowered(compared to the ps4) seem all the more true. Unless microsoft decides to be the sony this time around and charge an obscene price for the system. But i doubt they would, as greedy as they are.

LOL @ innovate. How exactly are they trying to innovate? Always on and online isn't new and innovative. Neither is installing a game new and innovative. Nor is their motion control gimmick that has been proven time and again to be absolutely worthless for anything more than casual and dance/fitness games.

Please take off your microsoft fan goggles.

None of this is new as far as this decade. The way they are using it can be new. Installing while you play at the same time is new, installing the game and waiting for it to install is not new.

Using a cloud service is not new as far as this decade is concerned, but if you use it to update a game in real-time is new.

Kinect is not worthless, that is your limited mind that can't think outside box. Nobody can help you with that. You are what you are.

As far as the next Xbox being under powered we have EDGE saying it's slightly less powered than the PS4. Again with 8 Gigabytes of GDDR5, the PS4 will have to find something to hit a home run because you are looking at $499 at the very least.

Anyone else want to find out the price for 8 Gigabytes of GDDR5 ($100 - $120 is just a guess), that is going to be added to the console that you buy.

Good luck with that.

I think Sony is doing a great job so far, but that ram just broke their back. They should have just stuck with 4GB of ram and not go over because when they pass that price on to the consumer it's going to be $499 at the very least.

[iconboy]

If the always on is because it will update the system automatically or download game patches and games i want- then great! If its a movie for DRM , screw that! just a simply example of the headache you are in for? I wanted to use Youtube on my PS3 last night and it wasnt able to connect to the Sony Server for my PSN ID so i couldnt use the youtube app!

incredible!

[Elessar]

The have to install is because of bluray and the slow read speed. And it doesn't say you have to do a full install like the 360 "installs", just that you have to do an install, which is likely a mini install.

And it'd be surprised if it wasn't 1TB. And since it's most likely a mini install, of course you need the disk, if you didn't you could just install and give it away. Unless every disk was signed and it could ony be played on your account.

Assuming it uses the same speed blu-ray player as the PS4 (6x), that's 27 MB/s, which means it would only take about 5 seconds to load ~135MB. For comparison sake, a DVD drive at its max can only read 18 MB/s. Considering both next-gen consoles are rumored to support "instant play" within a few seconds, I can see 6x being enough (for the PS4 at least). I don't like the idea of having to install a game...that's what us old folks like to call a "PC".

[mattmatik]

dude,that doesn't make sense. the bundle is at least $100 more. How are they forcing the Kinect? People are buying the bundle for Kinect. Its $100 cheaper today to buy the console without Kinect bundled.

I meant that they are forcing it on next-gen. Kinect is required, at least according to this 'first look'. But I'm a pessimist, my feeling is they are doing it for the big benefit of claiming they have the best selling movement controller. And at this point, since we don't know what the console will actually cost, I'm not going to say they are just throwing it in. This also irks me because I, personally, thought the Dash went to crap when they started Kinect-ifying it and I have a feeling those of us who do not want to use Kinect will have an equally irritating time navigating the next Dash. We'll see, I really hate to speculate on anything anymore.

If the always on is because it will update the system automatically or download game patches and games i want- then great! If its a movie for DRM , screw that! just a simply example of the headache you are in for? I wanted to use Youtube on my PS3 last night and it wasnt able to connect to the Sony Server for my PSN ID so i couldnt use the youtube app!

incredible!

One word: Cinavia.

[The_Decryptor Veteran]

Assuming it uses the same speed blu-ray player as the PS4 (6x), that's 27 MB/s, which means it would only take about 5 seconds to load ~135MB. For comparison sake, a DVD drive at its max can only read 18 MB/s. Considering both next-gen consoles are rumored to support "instant play" within a few seconds, I can see 6x being enough (for the PS4 at least). I don't like the idea of having to install a game...that's what us old folks like to call a "PC".

Of course hard drives have read speeds of 125MBps+, so it'll be even faster if you install the game to the drive.

[George P Global Moderator]

If you have to install to the hdd for performance sake and this still isn't official or anything, if you can start playing as it's installing then it's not so bad. On another note if installing to the hdd is still optional then being able to start playing as it installs is a bonus that I like. Performance aside another reason they might make installs mandatory could very well be in order to auto patch any game you have regardless of if you're going to play it next or a month from now. That as well could be something very good in the end.

We'll have to wait and see though, once we get official word of things then we can talk about it. These leaked docs are said to be over a year old and they say right at the top that they're all subject to change.

[compl3x]

DO we know if it is just going to be average HDDs like you can do with a PS3 now or is MS going to make us waste unnecessary cash on HDDs like the ones the 360 currently use?

[TheLegendOfMart]

Knowing Microsoft you will only be able to use their own branded HDD in a proprietary caddy.

[BajiRav]

If mandatory installs are like Office 2013 streaming installs, it won't be much of a problem really.

Always on, always connected sounds more like a marketing term than a requirement. I guess it will be same as ps4 and will be using the connected standby mode for updates.