PS4 has no performance bottlenecks, claims Killzone developer

[vcfan]

You were the one banging on about how you specced your pc in 30 mins and Sony took a year, your original post had NOTHING to do with the topic at hand and you have the gall to try and lecture me?????????

its obvious you have no idea what bottleneck is. And my post has every thing to do with the article. you're going off track and mentioning things like heat,power and price. let me explain to you what a performance bottleneck is. If I have a GTX titan,and I pair it with a lower end core processor, this cpu is going to be a little slow to do some calculations,so my GPU will be sitting idle waiting for the cpu to finish before it can do its renders. That is a bottleneck. Another bottleneck is that if I used slow memory with a fast cpu and fast gpu, everything waits on the slow memory because of lack of bandwidth,and cant perform to their maximum capacity.

What sony is saying is it took them a year to make sure they don't have any bottlenecks,which is marketing speak. I responded that it took me all 30 minutes to pick out parts for a system that wont have any bottlenecks. get it now? we're not talking about designing things here,or manufacturing. they picked parts that have to work together. this doesn't take a year to do. it sounds like something nice to the uninformed,but its marketing and those who understand these things see right through this.

if the gpu is a modified gpu core,you start there,day 1. that's the only thing that's modified. everything else is off the shelf chips. cpu,ram,controllers,etc... so if starting with gpu,they took a year to carefully plan all the other components?

[TheLegendOfMart]

I give up, your parts were off the shelf guaranteed performance, the PS4 has beefed up gpu with extra ALU, it also has an extra APU which is purely ALU focused which isn't off the shelf, they aren't saying they took a year to test for bottlenecks, it took them a year to design the hardware and to get it all meshed together properly, which takes size, heat, power consumption, price into consideration. They can't just take the fastest cpu, fastest gpu, fastest ram, biggest cpu cooler, biggest psu like you can which is why it only took you 30 mins.

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

its obvious you have no idea what bottleneck is. And my post has every thing to do with the article. you're going off track and mentioning things like heat,power and price. let me explain to you what a performance bottleneck is. If I have a GTX titan,and I pair it with a lower end core processor, this cpu is going to be a little slow to do some calculations,so my GPU will be sitting idle waiting for the cpu to finish before it can do its renders. That is a bottleneck. Another bottleneck is that if I used slow memory with a fast cpu and fast gpu, everything waits on the slow memory because of lack of bandwidth,and cant perform to their maximum capacity.

What sony is saying is it took them a year to make sure they don't have any bottlenecks,which is marketing speak. I responded that it took me all 30 minutes to pick out parts for a system that wont have any bottlenecks. get it now? we're not talking about designing things here,or manufacturing. they picked parts that have to work together. this doesn't take a year to do. it sounds like something nice to the uninformed,but its marketing and those who understand these things see right through this.

When it comes to putting the hardware together they are inside a "small" enclosed case which has no easy way to be cleaned (you cannot open a console without voiding warranty), and said parts usually end up initially selling for a loss (making it a minimal loss is paramount). I'm sure you can see why Sony would view heat, power and price as potential bottlenecks.

The amount of heat generated in consoles is what caused the major hardware issues of last gen. We are getting powerful boxes this gen, there is going to be some amount of heat needing to be properly dealt with.

Creating a console is in no way as simple as putting a PC together, if you think 30 minutes is enough.... well... maybe MS put the original 360 together in 30 minutes hence the RROD... That is in fact a joke to try and let you see how silly it is to think this is an easy task to get 100% right. And they have to.

[MikeChipshop Member]

Glad it's going well but, no bottlenecks? I think someones stretching the truth a tad.

The only way you could honestly claim no bottlenecks is if you bring everything down to the same speed as the slowest common denominator.

[vcfan]

I give up, your parts were off the shelf guaranteed performance, the PS4 has beefed up gpu with extra ALU, it also has an extra APU which is purely ALU focused which isn't off the shelf, they aren't saying they took a year to test for bottlenecks, it took them a year to design the hardware and to get it all meshed together properly, which takes size, heat, power consumption, price into consideration. They can't just take the fastest cpu, fastest gpu, fastest ram, biggest cpu cooler, biggest psu like you can which is why it only took you 30 mins.

like i said,it doesn't matter if it has an extra ALU or whatever,in the end,each part also has a performance level. you look at each part and you match until theres no bottleneck. maybe you're talking about something completely different than me,but what im saying,the process of selecting the components to fit doesn't take as long as they make it seem.

[Athernar]

What sony is saying is it took them a year to make sure they don't have any bottlenecks,which is marketing speak. I responded that it took me all 30 minutes to pick out parts for a system that wont have any bottlenecks. get it now? we're not talking about designing things here,or manufacturing. they picked parts that have to work together. this doesn't take a year to do. it sounds like something nice to the uninformed,but its marketing and those who understand these things see right through this.

if the gpu is a modified gpu core,you start there,day 1. that's the only thing that's modified. everything else is off the shelf chips. cpu,ram,controllers,etc... so if starting with gpu,they took a year to carefully plan all the other components?

Where do you get the right to call people uninformed when you then go on to claim that "everything else" is off-the-shelf? Have you taken a look at the inside of a console before? Because I'm not sure if you've noticed but they tend to use bespoke mainboards along with custom SKUs or modified chips/chipsets that are directly soldered to said mainboard. There is nothing "off-the-shelf" about them.

Can you also honestly say you've built a gaming PC recently that could fit into a console form factor?

Seriously, I'm a hardcore PC-nut by the standards of some of the other posters in this thread, but you're just being ignorant.

[TheLegendOfMart]

like i said,it doesn't matter if it has an extra ALU or whatever,in the end,each part also has a performance level. you look at each part and you match until theres no bottleneck. maybe you're talking about something completely different than me,but what im saying,the process of selecting the components to fit doesn't take as long as they make it seem.

How do you know the off the shelf cpu, custom gpu and custom added alu cruncher is going to work together in such a small enclosed space, its not something you can half ass as is evident with the 360 and RROD. Things can crop up over long term testing due to wear and tear and constant heating and cooling of components.

[vcfan]

Where do you get the right to call people uninformed when you then go on to claim that "everything else" is off-the-shelf? Have you taken a look at the inside of a console before? Because I'm not sure if you've noticed but they tend to use bespoke mainboards along with custom SKUs or modified chips/chipsets that are directly soldered to said mainboard. There is nothing "off-the-shelf" about them.

Can you also honestly say you've built a gaming PC recently that could fit into a console form factor?

Seriously, I'm a hardcore PC-nut by the standards of some of the other posters in this thread, but you're just being ignorant.

calm down. off the shelf doesn't necessarily mean you can buy it from bestbuy,it means its a product that's already designed and developed that you can order. you can buy a cpu that has pins to fit in a socket on a home build, or you can order the exact same cpu in on a BGA carrier to solder on your board to take up less space.pc boards usually have sockets and components are mounted on daughtercards so they take up so much room, so no one here is suggesting you can use these hefty socketed variants and fit them in a console sized box. you can use the exact same components in bga or other package though and fit them in a console.

[YounGMessiah]

My N64 still rules, no bottlenecks bahaha :p

[vcfan]

How do you know the off the shelf cpu, custom gpu and custom added alu cruncher is going to work together in such a small enclosed space, its not something you can half ass as is evident with the 360 and RROD. Things can crop up over long term testing due to wear and tear and constant heating and cooling of components.

ever heard of Thermal Design Power (TDP)??? components have this rating and this tells board assemblers what kind of cooling system they need to build. using this rating,they can exclude certain components and focus on the ones that fit the bill. If they start with their gpu for example, then they can act accordingly based on the size of the box they want to build and choose the other components.

[MorganX]

3. Runs WinRT apps

Really? I hadn't heard that. Not so sure that would be a good thing, but it is interesting. Can we assume Windows 8 will run NextBox games?

[BajiRav]

calm down. off the shelf doesn't necessarily mean you can buy it from bestbuy,it means its a product that's already designed and developed that you can order. you can buy a cpu that has pins to fit in a socket on a home build, or you can order the exact same cpu in on a BGA carrier to solder on your board to take up less space.pc boards usually have sockets and components are mounted on daughtercards so they take up so much room, so no one here is suggesting you can use these hefty socketed variants and fit them in a console sized box. you can use the exact same components in bga or other package though and fit them in a console.

I think it's very likely that Microsoft will go with a custom APU route in the same manner that they with Xbox 360 and Sony will probably do the same. Microsoft would want to own the silicon so that they can make it on their "own".

Really? I hadn't heard that. Not so sure that would be a good thing, but it is interesting. Can we assume Windows 8 will run NextBox games?

It's a rumor and it can mean anything until Microsoft says one way or the other.

[MorganX]

Independent of the gameplay, itself, I was amazed at how at the technical ability of Final Fantasy XIII.

For a game that did not install to the hard drive, minimal loading times, and impressed how smooth the game loaded on the fly.

You should be able to cache the optical and HDD, preload in background, etc. I've been quite impressed with the graphics and performance of the Uncharted Series. Heavenly Sword is probably my favorite PS3 game but definitely had performance issues. Would love to see it re-released now that developers better know how to take advantage of the PS3's architecture.

I'll be honest, with a system that's easier to develop for, Naughty Dog will probably produce some absolutely stunning games. Xbox Live and the controller are Xbox's biggest advantage. But I have allowed my 4yr Gold to lapse.

[a1ien]

APU = integrated graphics. I hope Microsoft will stick a discrete gpu in theirs.

[Yusuf M. Veteran]

The mods on this forum are doing an outstanding job.

Oh my gosh! Thank you so much, compl3x. You're too kind. You can can really help us by reporting a post that broke the rules. For some reason, our all-seeing eye doesn't actually see everything because... it doesn't exist. That's right, we don't have an all-seeing eye so we can't catch all instances of rule breakage. We try though! :) :happy: :D :yes:

As for this thread, I just cleaned it.

[TheLegendOfMart]

APU = integrated graphics. I hope Microsoft will stick a discrete gpu in theirs.

Integrated 7970M based gpu roughly equivalent to desktop 7850 but with beefed up ALU on all 18CUs and an extra APU with 4CUs purely for ALU crunching. AMD APUs are pretty impressive compared to "integrated" graphics on Intels chips.

Nextbox is meant to have a 12CU gpu so yeah gluck with that.

[ctrl_alt_delete]

Sigh I remember when discussions used to be informative and fun. Now it's just full of pure nonsense with people using rumores and opinions as facts and made up "facts". Get a hold of yourselves guys....lets all be logical

[+Eternal Tempest MVC]

This extra credits episodes "Why Console Specs Don't Matter"

http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/why-console-specs-dont-matter

Seems pretty applicable here.

[Athernar]

calm down. off the shelf doesn't necessarily mean you can buy it from bestbuy,it means its a product that's already designed and developed that you can order. you can buy a cpu that has pins to fit in a socket on a home build, or you can order the exact same cpu in on a BGA carrier to solder on your board to take up less space.pc boards usually have sockets and components are mounted on daughtercards so they take up so much room, so no one here is suggesting you can use these hefty socketed variants and fit them in a console sized box. you can use the exact same components in bga or other package though and fit them in a console.

By that logic every single product in existence qualifies as "off-the-shelf", you're just grasping at straws. Not only that but you've completely avoided my point regarding the bespoke mainboards.

[44MLX]

Regardless, I am buying the PS4. :)

[vcfan]

By that logic every single product in existence qualifies as "off-the-shelf", you're just grasping at straws.

pcs,phones,tablets,TVs most parts are off the shelf. its not a surprise or anything.its common knowledge. in a phone for example,you often hear how the lcd is from lg, the memory is from Samsung, the cpu is from QUALCOMM, the wifi is from Broadcom,and so on. is this not true?

Not only that but you've completely avoided my point regarding the bespoke mainboards.

what about them? motherboards are nothing but boards that have copper traces that connect parts and chips together. Those are designed by the company making the product, yes.

[Athernar]

pcs,phones,tablets,TVs most parts are off the shelf. its not a surprise or anything.its common knowledge. in a phone for example,you often hear how the lcd is from lg, the memory is from Samsung, the cpu is from QUALCOMM, the wifi is from Broadcom,and so on. is this not true?

No, it's not true. Because not only is it not always the case, but you're also vastly oversimplifying it.

what about them? motherboards are nothing but boards that have copper traces that connect parts and chips together. Those are designed by the company making the product, yes.

This confirms it, you don't even remotely know what you're talking about at all.

[Arceles]

vcfan just really don't know what he is talking about, he just like to bash anyone who isn't ms.

[vcfan]

No, it's not true. Because not only is it not always the case, but you're also vastly oversimplifying it.

the majority of the time it is. this is fact. shows me products that all or most of their parts are custom, and said parts are not available for distribution to any company or entity to order. Its rare to find this kind of thing.

This confirms it, you don't even remotely know what you're talking about at all.

really? motherboards are not PCBs that have traces that connect all the chips together? and you are telling me I don't know what im talking about? please enlighten us then what they really are then.

[Athernar]

the majority of the time it is. this is fact. shows me products that all or most of their parts are custom, and said parts are not available for distribution to any company or entity to order. Its rare to find this kind of thing.

Tell you what, why don't you go and buy all the individual components for your phone that you so proudly display in your signature and build a working device with it. It doesn't have to be pretty - it just has to work. If it's really as simple as you like to claim it is, you should be fine right? :rofl:

really? motherboards are not PCBs that have traces that connect all the chips together? and you are telling me I don't know what im talking about? please enlighten us then what they really are then.

Here's another challenge for you, open up your PC and pull everything off your motherboard that isn't a IC or a trace and get back to us on how well it works afterwards, oh and don't forget to wipe any OEM firmware that came with the board. (You can keep any on-chip firmware, but anything provided by the motherboard vendor specifically for that motherboard has to go)