PS4's 8GB RAM was kept secret from third-party devs until console revea

[BajiRav]

I very well could be incorrect, I'm no hardware expert, btw guys, glad to see a civil forum discussion (they seem to be rare on the topic of consoles lately). Also, 8GB might be overkill for now, but I for one will not complain and welcome at least some level of "future-proofing" for whatever the reason might be. I too also hope for a smoother OS, I've not had much experience with the PS3 but I know the Xbox 360 could certainly use a boost in OS performance regarding menus and transitions.

I do think it's mostly future proofing - at least when it comes to launch games. If they do decide to do something like an app store, then they will need the RAM. App multi-tasking might be the reason nextBox is going for 8GB RAM (will they double it too :p now that Sony has doubled PS4's? :laugh:). We might also hit at least streaming 4K videos this generation (5 years out, possible?) but will extra RAM really help? won't they need a better GPU too? :/

[Elliot B.]

PS4 GPU is more or less 7850 level of performance, its certainly not a slouch and you need at least 2GB of VRAM these days for whacking all the settings to max and for futureproofing, 1GB of VRAM is the bare minimum, theres no point putting the bare minimum in the console and then 4-5 years down the line being where the PS3 is now which is severely limited by RAM.

To visualize the GPU performance in terms of TFLOP/s only (prices from Scan in February 2013):

0.69 TFLOP/s - NVIDIA GeForce GTX 550 Ti (?80)

0.81 TFLOP/s - NVIDIA GeForce GTX 650 (?80)

1.40 TFLOP/s - NVIDIA GeForce GTX 570 (?292)

1.42 TFLOP/s - NVIDIA GeForce GTX 650 Ti (?108)

1.58 TFLOP/s - NVIDIA GeForce GTX 580 (?384)

1.76 TFLOP/s - AMD Radeon HD 7850 (?127)

1.84 TFLOP/s - AMD chip inside PlayStation 4

1.88 TFLOP/s - NVIDIA GeForce GTX 660 (?168)

2.01 TFLOP/s - AMD Radeon HD 6870

2.45 TFLOP/s - NVIDIA GeForce GTX 660 Ti (?214)

2.45 TFLOP/s - NVIDIA GeForce GTX 670 (?286)

2.48 TFLOP/s - NVIDIA GeForce GTX 590 (?360)

2.56 TFLOP/s - AMD Radeon HD 7870 GHz Edition (?180)

2.70 TFLOP/s - AMD Radeon HD 6970

2.86 TFLOP/s - AMD Radeon HD 7950 (?220)

2.99 TFLOP/s - AMD Radeon HD 7870 "Tahiti LE" (?180)

3.09 TFLOP/s - NVIDIA GeForce GTX 680 (?360)

3.78 TFLOP/s - AMD Radeon HD 7970 (?297)

5.62 TFLOP/s - GeForce GTX 690 (?760)

[+Warwagon MVC]

You can never have too much ram. (besides the 4GB 32bit OS limitation)

[TheLegendOfMart]

To visualize the GPU performance in terms of TFLOP/s only (prices from Scan in February 2013):

0.69 TFLOP/s - NVIDIA GeForce GTX 550 Ti (?80)

0.81 TFLOP/s - NVIDIA GeForce GTX 650 (?80)

1.40 TFLOP/s - NVIDIA GeForce GTX 570 (?292)

1.42 TFLOP/s - NVIDIA GeForce GTX 650 Ti (?108)

1.58 TFLOP/s - NVIDIA GeForce GTX 580 (?384)

1.76 TFLOP/s - AMD Radeon HD 7850 (?127)

1.84 TFLOP/s - AMD chip inside PlayStation 4

1.88 TFLOP/s - NVIDIA GeForce GTX 660 (?168)

2.01 TFLOP/s - AMD Radeon HD 6870

2.45 TFLOP/s - NVIDIA GeForce GTX 660 Ti (?214)

2.45 TFLOP/s - NVIDIA GeForce GTX 670 (?286)

2.48 TFLOP/s - NVIDIA GeForce GTX 590 (?360)

2.56 TFLOP/s - AMD Radeon HD 7870 GHz Edition (?180)

2.70 TFLOP/s - AMD Radeon HD 6970

2.86 TFLOP/s - AMD Radeon HD 7950 (?220)

2.99 TFLOP/s - AMD Radeon HD 7870 "Tahiti LE" (?180)

3.09 TFLOP/s - NVIDIA GeForce GTX 680 (?360)

3.78 TFLOP/s - AMD Radeon HD 7970 (?297)

5.62 TFLOP/s - GeForce GTX 690 (?760)

Bit misleading as I think 800GFLOPS is by the secondary APU that has 4CUs purely for GPGPU purposes. Not sure if they include that in the 1.84TFLOP count.

[Elessar]

I don't think you understand, the 8GB of GDDR5 isn't just graphics memory, it is system memory as well.

With 4GB you take 512MB off straight away for the OS that's just for the OS not the memory the game is stored in, then that leaves you with 3.5GB, take 2GB away for System memory and that leaves you 1.5GB for video ram, current gen games like Crysis 3 on PC can use up to 1.5GB of graphic memory, that doesn't leave any spare for NEXT GENERATION graphics.

I think you're struggling with my posts; either you're not reading them fully, or choosing to ignore them altogether. I specifically said " if Sony gave the OS it's own 1GB of memory (+4GB for video)." I also believe in another post I brought up the point that even if the system RAM totaled 4GB, and 1GB of that was reserved for the system/OS, that still leaves 3GB of RAM for the GPU...that's more than enough considering high-end GPUs today usually come with 1-2GB.

But the point you seem to be missing the most is games are going to be 1080p max. Developers have no reason to go higher than that since consoles are primarily connected to an HDTV (1080p). 4K video is still far off in the distance for mass adoption so 3GB of GDDR5 RAM is more than enough for games both now AND a few years down the road. If it isn't, the developers are doing something wrong.

[Aaron Olive]

I think you're struggling with my posts; either you're not reading them fully, or choosing to ignore them altogether. I specifically said " if Sony gave the OS it's own 1GB of memory (+4GB for video)." I also believe in another post I brought up the point that even if the system RAM totaled 4GB, and 1GB of that was reserved for the system/OS, that still leaves 3GB of RAM for the GPU...that's more than enough considering high-end GPUs today usually come with 1-2GB.

But the point you seem to be missing the most is games are going to be 1080p max. Developers have no reason to go higher than that since consoles are primarily connected to an HDTV (1080p). 4K video is still far off in the distance for mass adoption so 3GB of GDDR5 RAM is more than enough for games both now AND a few years down the road. If it isn't, the developers are doing something wrong.

Dude just drop it, Sony added 8GB of RAM to the PS4 because it would need it later on in the life cycle and it competitively needed it, you expect the PS4's ARM CPU, the dedicated game CPU and the systems OS to share 1GB? :huh:

[AngelGraves13]

More RAM means higher resolution textures. This generation of consoles will actually have good looking games.

[Elessar]

Dude just drop it, Sony added 8GB of RAM to the PS4 because it would need it later on in the life cycle and it competitively needed it, you expect the PS4's ARM CPU, the dedicated game CPU and the systems OS to share 1GB? :huh:

Ahem, TheLegendOfMart is claiming the OS is reserving only 512MB...so yes, I feel 1GB would be enough if optimized properly.

[Andre S. Veteran]

It's not just about textures and resolution... there's a fundamental idea in software performance called the space-time tradeoff; more memory means programs that can do more in less time, generally speaking. Everything you can cache in memory, you don't have to compute on-the-fly. That can mean reduced loading time (for example, the next level can be pre-loaded in the background in spare memory), richer levels, more variety of everything, from behaviors to sounds, to artificial intelligence.

No doubt the current generation of consoles could have had just 4GB of memory and gotten us good games, but there's also no doubt that much more awesome games will be made with 8GB available. The possibilities are practically endless now.

[Growled Member]

You can never have too much ram. (besides the 4GB 32bit OS limitation)

Amen to that. The more the better.

[ShadowMajestic]

Ken Kutaragi almost put the PS brand 6 feet under with his stupid aspirations, the first public appearance of the PS3 @ E3 2005 had 6 USB ports, 2 HDMI ports and 3 Ethernet ports. I don't miss him at all and I'm sure Sony is not going to sell the PS4 at a loss like they did the PS3 in 2006, simply cause they can't afford to.

His stupid aspirations? You are aware the only reason Playstation exsists is cause of him right?

He wanted to make a new kind of console, at first with Nintendo, they eventually refused Sony. And then on his own.

His vision might not fit yours, but his vision was to bring something to the world. Bring something new and unique. He did his best. And yet you b*tch at him? get lost dude.

You are aware Sony has made a loss on the Playstation division until just a few years ago? Not just selling the consoles at a loss, but the advertising and everything.

PS2 was sold at a loss, the PSX was sold at a loss....

Quite sure the 8GB DDR5 ram is expensive, the CPU isn't cheap either, neither is the GFX. They will sell the PS4 at a loss again.

[TheLegendOfMart]

I think you're struggling with my posts; either you're not reading them fully, or choosing to ignore them altogether. I specifically said " if Sony gave the OS it's own 1GB of memory (+4GB for video)." I also believe in another post I brought up the point that even if the system RAM totaled 4GB, and 1GB of that was reserved for the system/OS, that still leaves 3GB of RAM for the GPU...that's more than enough considering high-end GPUs today usually come with 1-2GB.

But the point you seem to be missing the most is games are going to be 1080p max. Developers have no reason to go higher than that since consoles are primarily connected to an HDTV (1080p). 4K video is still far off in the distance for mass adoption so 3GB of GDDR5 RAM is more than enough for games both now AND a few years down the road. If it isn't, the developers are doing something wrong.

I'm not struggling with your posts, what you say makes no sense.

1GB of system memory is nowhere near enough, a lot of PC games use 1GB or over and they are current generation games, next generation games are just going to use more and more memory.

If you go by your 4GB is best opinion, 512MB for OS, 1.5-2GB for RAM and 1.5-2GB for VRAM, that leaves no room for improvement.

I'm not missing any point, I've already stated twice that Crysis 3 in 1080p uses 1.5GB of VRAM and that is a current generation game, again it leaves very little room for expansion before the whole system is bottlenecked.

I'd rather pay more for a system that has 8GB of GDDR5 than be in the situation where we are today with PS3 with its severely restrictive 256MBx2 RAM.

[Aaron Olive]

My previous comment was related to the PS3 and the PS3 only, not PlayStation as a whole. I have the right to complain about his high aspirations, just look at all those extra unnecessary ports in the picture above on the back of the console and lets not forget the card reader slots. The final Spec PS3 didn't ship with all those extra ports but albeit if he had his way it probably would have and would have been a $700 console. A game console doesn't need all these extra peripheral slots and it seems he tried to make the PS3 more of a personal computer than a gaming console. Ken Kutaragi did some things right which i applaud him for but he did even more wrong, after all it's the only console of this generation to remove a bunch of features just to make it profitable which is this final product we have today.

My first point as to why Sony won't be selling at a lost or as huge of a loss as the PS3 this time around is because they can't afford to, as you pointed out and i quote,

PS2 was sold at a loss, the PSX was sold at a loss....

yeah that's when Sony was making that dough, they could afford to, not now though cause Sony as a whole is in a tight budget crisis. My second point is that the technology that is being used in the PS4 like the systems APU is budget conscious, everything is on one chip so Sony can spend less on manufacturing, provide a better cooling solution while saving money, they don?t have to worry about Yield Rates, them not including any backward compatible chips cuts down on price and since since most of the main components like the CPU, GPU and the RAM come from AMD they should save by buying it all in bulk from them.

[Blackhearted]

I'm not struggling with your posts, what you say makes no sense.

1GB of system memory is nowhere near enough, a lot of PC games use 1GB or over and they are current generation games, next generation games are just going to use more and more memory.

If you go by your 4GB is best opinion, 512MB for OS, 1.5-2GB for RAM and 1.5-2GB for VRAM, that leaves no room for improvement.

I'm not missing any point, I've already stated twice that Crysis 3 in 1080p uses 1.5GB of VRAM and that is a current generation game, again it leaves very little room for expansion before the whole system is bottlenecked.

I'd rather pay more for a system that has 8GB of GDDR5 than be in the situation where we are today with PS3 with its severely restrictive 256MBx2 RAM.

You keep harping on crysis as if the requirements of a crysis game have ever been indicative of the requirements of games at, or within a couple years of its release.

[Elessar]

I'm not struggling with your posts, what you say makes no sense.

1GB of system memory is nowhere near enough, a lot of PC games use 1GB or over and they are current generation games, next generation games are just going to use more and more memory.

If you go by your 4GB is best opinion, 512MB for OS, 1.5-2GB for RAM and 1.5-2GB for VRAM, that leaves no room for improvement.

I'm not missing any point, I've already stated twice that Crysis 3 in 1080p uses 1.5GB of VRAM and that is a current generation game, again it leaves very little room for expansion before the whole system is bottlenecked.

I'd rather pay more for a system that has 8GB of GDDR5 than be in the situation where we are today with PS3 with its severely restrictive 256MBx2 RAM.

Can you or someone please explain "If you go by your 4GB is best opinion, 512MB for OS, 1.5-2GB for RAM and 1.5-2GB for VRAM, that leaves no room for improvement." I'm not a techie but I don't understand why you have 512MB for the OS, and then 1.5-2GB of RAM, and then 1.5-2GB for VRAM. Wouldn't the OS get, lets say, 1.5GB or RAM and that's is, the rest (2.5GB) going to VRAM? Last I checked, the OS is stored on it's own block of internal storage/part of the HDD. I don't see why you list 512MB and then list another random amount of general RAM.

Regardless, I feel like we're beating a dead horse. You keep going on about Crysis 3 and such, but again, at 1080p, in a closed OS environment, developers shouldn't need more than 2-3GB or RAM.

[BajiRav]

I think additional RAM will help with things such as 3D without taking a hit on graphics. There are some Halo games which essentially render ever frame 2-3 times, I guess those engines will benefit too?

[TheLegendOfMart]

You keep harping on crysis as if the requirements of a crysis game have ever been indicative of the requirements of games at, or within a couple years of its release.

My point is Crysis has always been the most "next generation" of PC games requiring a PC that isn't even on the market yet to run it at its full potential.

If there is going to be a significant enough leap then games will need the kind of resources that Crysis uses or we will just get higher res looking current gen games with blurry textures, etc..

I didn't realise it was so hard to understand.

Can you or someone please explain "If you go by your 4GB is best opinion, 512MB for OS, 1.5-2GB for RAM and 1.5-2GB for VRAM, that leaves no room for improvement." I'm not a techie but I don't understand why you have 512MB for the OS, and then 1.5-2GB of RAM, and then 1.5-2GB for VRAM. Wouldn't the OS get, lets say, 1.5GB or RAM and that's is, the rest (2.5GB) going to VRAM? Last I checked, the OS is stored on it's own block of internal storage/part of the HDD. I don't see why you list 512MB and then list another random amount of general RAM.

Regardless, I feel like we're beating a dead horse. You keep going on about Crysis 3 and such, but again, at 1080p, in a closed OS environment, developers shouldn't need more than 2-3GB or RAM.

That's how Sony designed the console, the PS3 OS at launch used 120MB of the 256MB of RAM it had, just for the OS, then games had to fit in the remaining 136MB of RAM and the GPU had its own pool of 256MB of VRAM.

Sony with the PS4 has 512MB memory reserved just for the OS, that's not where the OS is "installed", its the memory it has to run the OS always on in the background including stuff like downloading, voice chat, recording gameplay in the background for the Share button.

THEN you are left with a 3.5GB pool of memory, its not split up like PS3 or like on PCs where you have motherboard RAM and VRAM on the GPU, it can dynamically allocate RAM and VRAM for as much or little as it needs, the 3.5GB pool is where the game files will be loaded into memory and for the gpu for textures, etc.. even if you do a 50:50 split 1.75GB each for RAM and VRAM is pushing the limit of what PC games use today.

I am just using Crysis as an example, Crysis 3 in 1080p DX11 with 4x MSAA uses 1.5GB of VRAM which doesn't leave a lot of leeway to improve graphics assuming a 50:50 split of the 3.5GB pool of ram.

[Elessar]

My point is Crysis has always been the most "next generation" of PC games requiring a PC that isn't even on the market yet to run it at its full potential.

If there is going to be a significant enough leap then games will need the kind of resources that Crysis uses or we will just get higher res looking current gen games with blurry textures, etc..

I didn't realise it was so hard to understand.

That's how Sony designed the console, the PS3 OS at launch used 120MB of the 256MB of RAM it had, just for the OS, then games had to fit in the remaining 136MB of RAM and the GPU had its own pool of 256MB of VRAM.

Sony with the PS4 has 512MB memory reserved just for the OS, that's not where the OS is "installed", its the memory it has to run the OS always on in the background including stuff like downloading, voice chat, recording gameplay in the background for the Share button.

THEN you are left with a 3.5GB pool of memory, its not split up like PS3 or like on PCs where you have motherboard RAM and VRAM on the GPU, it can dynamically allocate RAM and VRAM for as much or little as it needs, the 3.5GB pool is where the game files will be loaded into memory and for the gpu for textures, etc.. even if you do a 50:50 split 1.75GB each for RAM and VRAM is pushing the limit of what PC games use today.

I am just using Crysis as an example, Crysis 3 in 1080p DX11 with 4x MSAA uses 1.5GB of VRAM which doesn't leave a lot of leeway to improve graphics assuming a 50:50 split of the 3.5GB pool of ram.

Alright, so the OS has it's own pool of RAM in your post above, 512MB. Why does it then need to draw from the remaining 7.5GB of RAM as well? The point I've been trying to make this entire time is with 4GB of RAM they could have simply allocated 1GB to the OS (chatting, downloading, streaming, etc), and the remaining 3GB for the GPU. It seems rather cut-and-dry. The OS should have a specified pool of memory to use (but hopefully never max out) and that's it.

With your description above, you're suggesting the 7.5GB of RAM will be used by both the system AND GPU, depending on who needs what. That cannot work in this type of system. The developers need to know how much RAM they have to work with and can push. It they are using, assuming 8GB, 6GB of their current game, but the system is using 512MB and needs an additional 2GB for the current running apps...what happens?

This is where I'm not following your logic. It should simply be the OS/system has X memory out of total available, and the GPU has the remaining memory...

[TheLegendOfMart]

I think Sony want to guarantee a certain level of performance with the OS hence why it takes 512MB all to itself, it doesn't use any of the 7.5GB memory for running background apps, thats all included in the 512MB of RAM, the rest of the RAM is where the game will load into and where the GPU will draw from.

As for the rest of the RAM it IS workable, the 360 currently does this with its 512MB of ram, the developer can dynamically allocate the resources, if it doesn't need half the pool of RAM it lets the GPU have more memory, the developers will know how much RAM they have to work with because they are the ones that can decide how to allocate it.

I don't mean to be a douche but if you don't know about these things then don't tell people they are wrong when they try and explain it to you.

[ingramator]

With your description above, you're suggesting the 7.5GB of RAM will be used by both the system AND GPU, depending on who needs what. That cannot work in this type of system. The developers need to know how much RAM they have to work with and can push. It they are using, assuming 8GB, 6GB of their current game, but the system is using 512MB and needs an additional 2GB for the current running apps...what happens?

This is where I'm not following your logic. It should simply be the OS/system has X memory out of total available, and the GPU has the remaining memory...

Whilst I agree with the notion of higher RAM, it will at least mean that shared games across the 2 next gen game consoles won't suffer lower rendered graphics, I would however love to tell you what happens when App and System memory are clawing at each other. With the NT kernel (its the best example of memory allocation), if the system memory starts getting constrained because of the application memory usage it will start to cut unnecessary services. There are two main pools (there are actually many many more smaller classes) of processes that run in Windows, critical and expendable. The critical processes (like explorer.exe) will never be killed off but ones such as disk indexing and defrags will. If Sony implemented this kind of logic within the console kernel but made sure that downloads etc would be clearing straight out of RAM and to HDD they could give it a threshold of 512MB- 2GB, when a game start demanding more RAM it merely scales back the OS footprint to make way for the game. Sony could then allocate games 7.5 GB of memory with devs knowing they will always have access to that amount. I just don't Sony have the software experience to even begin on such a task so I guess, lets just let them keep a dedicated wall there :)

[notuptome2004]

Also let not forget the PS4 is also gonna be streaming videos live with the share button and or capturing full HD game footage so i am sure some of the ram is used for that

[HawkMan]

Also let not forget the PS4 is also gonna be streaming videos live with the share button and or capturing full HD game footage so i am sure some of the ram is used for that

So you changed your mind about the next gen PS and Xbox not being superior to the WiiU or something ?

[Elessar]

Whilst I agree with the notion of higher RAM, it will at least mean that shared games across the 2 next gen game consoles won't suffer lower rendered graphics, I would however love to tell you what happens when App and System memory are clawing at each other. With the NT kernel (its the best example of memory allocation), if the system memory starts getting constrained because of the application memory usage it will start to cut unnecessary services. There are two main pools (there are actually many many more smaller classes) of processes that run in Windows, critical and expendable. The critical processes (like explorer.exe) will never be killed off but ones such as disk indexing and defrags will. If Sony implemented this kind of logic within the console kernel but made sure that downloads etc would be clearing straight out of RAM and to HDD they could give it a threshold of 512MB- 2GB, when a game start demanding more RAM it merely scales back the OS footprint to make way for the game. Sony could then allocate games 7.5 GB of memory with devs knowing they will always have access to that amount. I just don't Sony have the software experience to even begin on such a task so I guess, lets just let them keep a dedicated wall there :)

What about the PS Vita? I'm fairly certain the OS has 512MB to use, so Sony drew a line (so-to-speak) at 6 open applications/games at one single time. I don't see why they couldn't do the same with the PS4. Again, this is all working within the 4GB constraint we originally thought the PS4 would have. Obviously this is a mute point now, but the whole point of a console is the hardware is set in stone. The developers know they have X amount of RAM at their disposal (but don't have to use it all), and the OS also has X amount of RAM to use...

Anyway, now that it has 8GB, this isn't an issue and I'm pretty sure a handful of us are just going in circles :) Good little debate/learning session, thanks.

[moloko]

No, I doubt any of them are complaining, but probably that they didn't know while working on their projects to take full advantage.

How I read into this: Sony caught wind of MS's next console rumored @ 8GB of RAM and made a last minute change, as others here have pointed out. This also could be why Sony did not show the console itself, the increase in RAM size likely affected the chassis dimensions, because we all know they are simply going to just upgrade the RAM stick sizes and increase costs further.

Thanks. I guess they would not be pleased since the first games out the door would not be optimized to use a full 8Gb instead of the 4.

[notuptome2004]

So you changed your mind about the next gen PS and Xbox not being superior to the WiiU or something ?

never siad they was not least not in terms of Power and Performance. the PS4 is a great system but i still stand that the Wii U is a great system as well will soon get faster with updates load times and menu speeds increased