ps4 PlayStation 4 DRM policies get a bit more complex

[spudtrooper]

sounds perfectly ok to me. From what they said and the clarification Unlike the XBox One DRM is to be handled at the discretion of the game developer and not forced on them by Sony. Which means we are in the same boat that we are in today. If a Developer wants to require that you buy a pass, or key to play a used game then they can already do that.... cough ... cough .EA

What is the ultimate goal of your anti drm stance? Do you just like disk media? if so, why? what advantage does disk media have that the Xbox One DRM prohibits you from achieving? (i'm asking YOUR reasons, not the talking points of joe shmoe Microsoft hater)

For example, for me. If I buy two Xbox Ones, for both my tvs, I can buy one game and install it on two consoles and not worry about it as long as those two consoles are one of the 10 ids I have on my DRM list. I just saved a bunch of money and I can play against the kids in my house.

Also, I much prefer downloading my content. I *HATE* disks. They're just garbage - an old distribution system for bits to get to my computer. The fact I can play something, delete it, play something else, delete that and redownload what I want to replay without concern is pretty cool. I've accepted my content won't last forever just as my disks won't last forever and the hardware to play that content on won't last for ever..

in other words, for every reason I thought I wanted it the old way, its just out of me ignoring the possibilities of the new way and holding on to old habits.

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

Well clearly devs can do online pass codes and force always online, but they can do that this gen as well.

There's a pretty ****ing massive difference between that and system wide enforcement.

[Livin in a box]

What is the ultimate goal of your anti drm stance? Do you just like disk media? if so, why? what advantage does disk media have that the Xbox One DRM prohibits you from achieving? (i'm asking YOUR reasons, not the talking points of joe shmoe Microsoft hater)

For example, for me. If I buy two Xbox Ones, for both my tvs, I can buy one game and install it on two consoles and not worry about it as long as those two consoles are one of the 10 ids I have on my DRM list. I just saved a bunch of money and I can play against the kids in my house.

Also, I much prefer downloading my content. I *HATE* disks. They're just garbage - an old distribution system for bits to get to my computer. The fact I can play something, delete it, play something else, delete that and redownload what I want to replay without concern is pretty cool. I've accepted my content won't last forever just as my disks won't last forever and the hardware to play that content on won't last for ever..

in other words, for every reason I thought I wanted it the old way, its just out of me ignoring the possibilities of the new way and holding on to old habits.

A lot of people have download caps, very slow Internet, unreliable Internet, etc. Not everyone has fibre and 99% uptime.

[LaP]

If MS can embrace the end of physical media by protecting the content AND the users, then i'm all for it. Protecting the content at all costs while ignoring users isn't the right way to go about it. Make the DRM a digital locker where I can sell my electronic content & transfer licenses in an open market and then MS/publishers can earn royalties on those transfers. As long as I feel "ownership" and "transfer of rights" then I don't care if its on disk or DRM. I think MS may have wanted to lean that way, but i'm sure the brick and mortar retailers crapped bricks and MS probably didn't want to upset retailers..

all though there is no reason they couldn't have allowed the B&M stores to build their own resale shops and have a digital storefront to allow people to trade/sell

Honestly i actually don't care if i can't resell my games when we talk about the digital version of games.

When i go to watch a movie at the theater i can't resell my ticket. The fact is once i finished a game i enjoyed the product and don't care that much if i can't resell it.

My problem is the price. I don't mind not being able to resell my game if the only thing i paid for is the right to enjoy it. The problem is when i go to a store i actually pay for a disk, a case, a manual, the store cut, the shipping, the handling, the manufacturing, etc etc etc.

While i don't mind not being able to resell my right to play the game i actually DO mind a lot not being able to resell my box and disk to whoever i want on Kijiji.

I never buy any game over 30$ on Steam (actually i might have buy one or two at 40$ but not more than this price). Why? Cause at more than this price it's a steal. I don't think the right to play a game that can be finished in 15 hours is worth 60$ or 50$.

Games will eventually go digital only. But they need to lower the price a bit. Around 40$ is pretty much the maximum i'm willing to pay for a digital copy. Selling disks as digital copies for the full 60$ is where i have a problem with Microsoft's business model for the One. It will be a lot harder to do sales like Steam does considering the games will be sold in many different stores across many countries. Without the frequent sales and the awesome www.steamwatch.com Steam would not be installed on my PC cause it would be worthless.

[spenser.d]

sounds perfectly ok to me. From what they said and the clarification Unlike the XBox One DRM is to be handled at the discretion of the game developer and not forced on them by Sony. Which means we are in the same boat that we are in today. If a Developer wants to require that you buy a pass, or key to play a used game then they can already do that.... cough ... cough .EA

Problem is people will buy a PS4 thinking everything will be just fine because Sony said so pretty explicitly, when in reality it's not. What if publishers start requiring 24-hour checkins for their games. People who buy Xbox One are prepared for that on day one. People who bought the PS4 because they thought they wouldn't have to check in will get shafted.

[spudtrooper]

A lot of people have download caps, very slow Internet, unreliable Internet, etc. Not everyone has fibre and 99% uptime.

OK, so that means you won't have reliable downloads, but even if you install the game, how does the Xbox one DRM actually prohibit you from gaming even with the worst internet in the world? is it so unreliable you can't connect once every 24 hours? if so, I wouldn't invest in any gaming platform..

[helios01]

I think this being taken out of context. I think its the same drm policies that have been in place like before. Sony can't deceive millions and lie about not having drm.

It's not like they haven't done it before :shifty:

[trag3dy]

That bit of news isn't the smallest bit surprising?

[ichi]

What if publishers start requiring 24-hour checkins for their games.

Vote with your wallet?

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

Vote with your wallet?

Who would even have the infrastructure, money and greed to do it on their own behalf? If EA doesn't do it no one else is. Capcom/Konami/Square didn't even do online passes this gen.

Blizzard are removing the Diablo 3 online DRM for PS3/PS4.

[spudtrooper]

My problem is the price. I don't mind not being able to resell my game if the only thing i paid for is the right to enjoy it. The problem is when i go to a store i actually pay for a disk, a case, a manual, the store cut, the shipping, the handling, the manufacturing, etc etc etc.

Is that really what you think your paying for? Maybe if you buy an extended or limited edition, but as far as I can tell from the 360 games I've purchase its a sloppy case with a DVD and generic printed pamphlet that shows the exact same info as the options screen in game. The media just how you get the bits on the console.

While i don't mind not being able to resell my right to play the game i actually DO mind a lot not being able to resell my box and disk to whoever i want on Kijiji.

I never buy any game over 30$ on Steam (actually i might have buy one or two at 40$ but not more than this price). Why? Cause at more than this price it's a steal. I don't think the right to play a game that can be finished in 15 hours is worth 60$ or 50$.

Microsoft / 360 has had many sales even on digital game downloads. Heck, summer of games is just around the corner and I believe that if electronic distribution was the defacto then more people may by more games because the market is based upon demand, not just the expense of publishing through retail and they can create more demand by elastic pricing - which you can't do as long as retail is your primary channel.

I see the DRM Microsoft talks about as 10 times better than the DRM of steam, so if we accepted electronic delivery I don't see why the market couldn't be more competitive and open on pricing.

Games will eventually go digital only. But they need to lower the price a bit. Around 40$ is pretty much the maximum i'm willing to pay for a digital copy. Selling disks as digital copies for the full 60$ is where i have a problem with Microsoft's business model for the One. It will be a lot harder to do sales like Steam does considering the games will be sold in many different stores across many countries. Without the frequent sales and the awesome www.steamwatch.com Steam would not be installed on my PC cause it would be worthless.

Again, you assume the pricing is for the media it comes on. That case, manual and disk is probably 1.00 in parts and a few bucks in labor. Steam games are generally full price at launch and I don't expect anyone to discount unless that is their business model.

[BajiRav]

Yeah who cares about a company that works with NSA to release user information that has a device that has high resolution camera and sensors that is always on.

If you are referring to that Washington Post article from last week, it was retracted and changed a lot without notice. None of the companies listed (Apple, Google, MS etc.) have a backdoor on their systems and provide info only with warrant.

[spudtrooper]

Who would even have the infrastructure, money and greed to do it on their own behalf? If EA doesn't do it no one else is. Capcom/Konami/Square didn't even do online passes this gen.

Blizzard are removing the Diablo 3 online DRM for PS3/PS4.

If you buy the game on disk they will require the disk to be in to play. If they offer a download version it will have DRM guaranteed. Maybe all the others are removing their own unique drm system because they realized they're content providers not distribution systems. If Microsoft and Sony can do the distribution it means they can focus on the content.

[spenser.d]

Who would even have the infrastructure, money and greed to do it on their own behalf? If EA doesn't do it no one else is. Capcom/Konami/Square didn't even do online passes this gen.

Blizzard are removing the Diablo 3 online DRM for PS3/PS4.

It wouldn't take much infrastructure or money to implement phoning home. Game sends a key out when it's online, server sends a message back. If the game doesn't hear from the server in 24 hours, it stops you. And while that's an oversimplification, it's still not as complicated as you make it sound. If they set up servers for online play they can certainly have one or two for something as relatively simple as phoning home.

[M_Lyons10]

I think this being taken out of context. I think its the same drm policies that have been in place like before. Sony can't deceive millions and lie about not having drm.

Except it's Sony, so lieing should be expected...

One thing i've noticed at this E3 is that developers are looking to push more games that have online as more of a part of it, look at them coming out with co-op/team racing games and all the talk about larger worlds backed by the cloud. It's slowlly going to be the case that while we still get SP games, thank god, even a number of those will have their worlds be persistent and online. Look at Destiny, Titanfall, and so on. The 3rd party devs are going to slowly, but surely, push us to more games that lock us into some online account requirement.

Just to be fair, the same thing is what MS said with the Xbox One and it's own stance on used games, they won't block used game sales on their own first party titles but that 3rd party devs have the option to if they want. That stance seemed to not sit well with people, this same stance from Sony should be the same.

Agreed. And I for one much prefer Microsoft having my information and checking that I won all of my games at once versus every Publisher and their brother having my information and relying on DRM or servers that likely aren't anywhere near as reliable as Microsoft's... What if they have a problem on their end? And in addition, now all of your games are phoning home individually? Joy...

And I'd also like to point out that, now you are getting essentially the same thing with none of the benefit you are getting from Microsoft, like being able to log in anywhere and having access to your games library, or having everything backed by Azure...

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

It wouldn't take much infrastructure or money to implement phoning home. Game sends a key out when it's online, server sends a message back. If the game doesn't hear from the server in 24 hours, it stops you. And while that's an oversimplification, it's still not as complicated as you make it sound. If they set up servers for online play they can certainly have one or two for something as relatively simple as phoning home.

So its taken how many generations, how much money and effort from MS to get to this DRM they're doing? If it were easy, cost effective and as straight forward as those in here trying to portray it as publishers would've given it a crack by now.

All we've had is failed attempts and publishers doing 180s when it comes to always online checks.

Seems like the Xbox fans are praying for anything now to take away from Sony not doing what MS are.

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

Okay so here we go, this only applies to the online section of used games like it does now (with online passes).

Sorry pro-DRM team

According to Dan Race, senior director, corporate communications for Sony, Tretton?s statements were ?referring specifically to playing used games online?

?The Online Pass program for PlayStation first-party games will not continue on PlayStation 4,? he said. ?Similar to PS3, we will not dictate the online used game strategy (the ability to play used games online) of its publishing partners. As announced last night, PS4 will not have any gating restrictions for used disc-based games.

?When a gamer buys a PS4 disc they have right to use that copy of the game, so they can trade-in the game at retail, sell it to another person, lend it to a friend, or keep it forever.?

So there you go. Hope that clears it all up.

Http://gamefront.com/sony-third-party-drm-refers-to-playing-used-games-online-only/

[fusi0n]

The best thing is, these systems will still get hacked and the legit customers will have to suffer.

[spudtrooper]

So its taken how many generations, how much money and effort from MS to get to this DRM they're doing? If it were easy, cost effective and as straight forward as those in here trying to portray it as publishers would've given it a crack by now.

All we've had is failed attempts and publishers doing 180s when it comes to always online checks.

Seems like the Xbox fans are praying for anything now to take away from Sony not doing what MS are.

You're looking at things naively though.

I don't mind DRM done right.

If I can download a game on launch = DRM done right

If I can play my game using my gamertag on any system = DRM done right.

If I can buy 2 Xboxes and play the same game = DRM done right

If I can delete, re-install and save my games on the cloud = DRM done right.

You know what, all of that is built into the Xbox One DRM.

DRM Done wrong

*Please Insert Disk* to play this Game.

*Please Insert Disk" to Update this Game.

*Oh, you're friends are playing KI, please exit this game, insert your KI disk so I can verify you can play KI"

The DISK isn't what gives value. The DISK isn't what i'm buying. The DISK is just a vehicle to get the content to me and if I can play a game without the disk - THAT is what I will do.

With that being said, if you're not a fan of the disk, then the DRM for the Xbox One is quite flexible if you buy all of our content digitally.

Its DRM that gives steam elasticity in pricing. It allows them to sell as massive discounts because they know the magnitude of orders they can achieve. Sony is banking on retail distribution by requiring a DISK or they're just playing words when they know DIgital Download is the future because digital downloads will have full DRM.

I could go on and on, but lets be frank. Most people don't want an intelligent debate, they want to jump to conclusions on old ideas and old habits.

[dead.cell]

Who would even have the infrastructure, money and greed to do it on their own behalf? If EA doesn't do it no one else is. Capcom/Konami/Square didn't even do online passes this gen.

Blizzard are removing the Diablo 3 online DRM for PS3/PS4.

Wait wait wait wait wait... wait... WAIT...

Whaaaaat... Is Blizzard really doing this? That's incredible if they are. Not saying I'll be going out to buy D3 as I still find it rather underwhelming, but I've been forever disappointed in them as a company for the past year or two. I really hope they turn themselves around, I miss the days when I could say Blizzard was the absolute shiznit. :/

[Alladaskill17]

It's exactly like the xbox minus 24 hour check. Everything is left to the publisher.

http://www.polygon.c...r-own-drm-terms

and the whole specific retailers only "one-time" resale thing :rolleyes: kind of a difference. Basically things will stay pretty much the same as current gen.

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

You're looking at things naively though.

I don't mind DRM done right.

If I can download a game on launch = DRM done right

If I can play my game using my gamertag on any system = DRM done right.

If I can buy 2 Xboxes and play the same game = DRM done right

If I can delete, re-install and save my games on the cloud = DRM done right.

You know what, all of that is built into the Xbox One DRM.

DRM Done wrong

*Please Insert Disk* to play this Game.

*Please Insert Disk" to Update this Game.

*Oh, you're friends are playing KI, please exit this game, insert your KI disk so I can verify you can play KI"

The DISK isn't what gives value. The DISK isn't what i'm buying. The DISK is just a vehicle to get the content to me and if I can play a game without the disk - THAT is what I will do.

With that being said, if you're not a fan of the disk, then the DRM for the Xbox One is quite flexible if you buy all of our content digitally.

Its DRM that gives steam elasticity in pricing. It allows them to sell as massive discounts because they know the magnitude of orders they can achieve. Sony is banking on retail distribution by requiring a DISK or they're just playing words when they know DIgital Download is the future because digital downloads will have full DRM.

I could go on and on, but lets be frank. Most people don't want an intelligent debate, they want to jump to conclusions on old ideas and old habits.

Naively?

I want to be able to sell my used games, trade them in, give them to my friends and GF to borrow. For me that's pro-consumer.

I do not buy console games digitally unless its PSN titles. Why not? For the reason that digital DRM on consoles is horse ****. I own over 100 retail ps3 discs and thankfully that will continue with my PS4. **** ****ty DRM which has a stranglehold over my games collection.

I want to play my SP games when I want to play them and wherever there is a plug socket. Needing an internet connection to play a game that has no need to go online is not something I want not within my control. To me its called SP for a reason. If I can go online and get some extra benefits like score boards, cool, thanks, but if the core game can quite clearly be able to be played completely offline I would like that choice thank you very much.

DRM 9 times out of 10 is simply about restricting user choice and making us feel like we have to play on your terms, not our own. I didn't get into a relaxing hobby like playing games to have some guys in suits tell me how I should enjoy my games.

[Livin in a box]

OK, so that means you won't have reliable downloads, but even if you install the game, how does the Xbox one DRM actually prohibit you from gaming even with the worst internet in the world? is it so unreliable you can't connect once every 24 hours? if so, I wouldn't invest in any gaming platform..

Probably not continually, but I've had occasions (much moreso last year with a certain ISP) where my Internet was down literally for almost a week, and a couple of other times where it was down for whole days. There are people in much worse situations than I am who should be perfectly able to buy a gaming console, but will be hindered by a silly DRM tactic that no platform has ever needed before. I'm talking about 24 hour pings only here, nothing else.

[DrunknMunky Veteran]

snip

On the flip side, PS+ could also be viewed as the ultimate DRM scheme :p By that I mean, you pay each month to take advantage of their offer, but the moment you stop paying you lose access to IGC. Plus what happens in 5, 10, 15 years when PS+ might not even exist any more? This sort of relates back to backwards compat again and how much effort are MS/Ninty/Sony going to put into preserving their catalogues in the future.

I believe there are whispers online that Steam have a contingency plan if they were to ever go out of business they would remove all the DRM restrictions from gamer's libraries, but who knows if there is any truth in that. Would Sony do the same thing or eventually would those PS+ licenses expire because you can no longer authenticate/buy PS+.

It's something all of the platforms, including phones/tablets, are going to have to deal with as apps/gaming become more digital.

[MindTrickz]

So essentially the PS4 will be exactly like the PS3.... in which companies like EA can implement their online passes, even that particular company has discontinued that. I see no problem.

It's exactly like the xbox minus 24 hour check. Everything is left to the publisher.

Except on Sony's console, you can lend your games to your friends, resale them, and you do not have a spyware camera always listening, the console doesn't need to phone home ever 24 hours; and block you out if you do not establish connection to Microsoft.